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View Full Version : Would you accept this is you were a customer.



David L Shaw
09-24-2007, 3:34 PM
I have been having someone engrave my archery grips for me until I can get my own laser. The results on a lot of them have been not up to my requirements. The grip I sell today will probably generate the TWO of the grip sales I do next week. On this grip in my opinion the text stretchs out to far to the edges. The B in Brian is on the rounded part of the grip and has lost its detail (I think out of focus burn). I asked for the name to be angled to match the wood grain angle in the walnut color. It may be close but not the way I would have done it.

My question is... Am I being to picky? Is it that hard to get a name placed on an object like this?

Please voice you opinions on this.

Thanks,
Dave

72434

Dave Fifield
09-24-2007, 3:48 PM
No. It's terrible! I'd have them pay to replace the item and then find a laser engraver that knows what they are doing.

It's real easy to a) focus on a simple object like this, and b) engrave the name so it's exactly parallel to the wood grain/color.

Jim Good
09-24-2007, 3:52 PM
The text is not aligned with the grip and it is distracting. It's not the quality job I would expect.

It would have been easy to make a template, use blue painters tape to verify that the placement is correct, and then do the final cut. It's not a very good job.

I'd hurry and get that laser ordered! ;)

glenn bradley
09-24-2007, 3:59 PM
I wouldn't accept it. Find a new guy/gal or get that laser ordered.

Scott Shepherd
09-24-2007, 4:05 PM
I don't believe it's a good job either, or acceptable to send out like that either, but there's more we need to know, such as did he quote it as you wanted it, or was this sent as a normal job for $6.00 and expected to be handled for the same price?

It depends on what you told him and what the agreement was. I personally wouldn't do that, in a one off situation, for $6.00 (I'm picking a number, not sure the real cost).

There's no way I can determine the angle, lay it out right, cut it lightly in tape on the grip to make sure it's correct, and then cut it one final time for $6.00. If that's what was expected, then there's an issue.

I've eaten jobs on more than one ocassion that were dirt cheap and ended up taking too long to get just right, but I refused to send them out with my name on it at a poor level of quality. Some times you just have to eat one, and if you send him a lot of gravy, then he should have been willing to go the extra mile for this one, and then possibly informed you that the next time, it'll be more expensive to do.

Just my opinion.

Joe Pelonio
09-24-2007, 4:49 PM
What I'd do is trace the grip, and laser cut a jig that it sets into. I charge for that but assuming many of them are the same size and shape that is a one-time charge. After that all of them will have exactly placed text. The focus has to be slightly off when there's a curve to the material, the operator has to compromise to get the best possible focus but it may not be as perfect as on a flat object, and the larger the text area the worse that will be.

David L Shaw
09-24-2007, 5:11 PM
I furnished a to scale template to him in .cdr format.

Right now I am his only customer and have been having him do between 5 to 15 grips a week. I have only been offering the engraving for a short time to my customers. I have had to remake 5 grips so far. He is the only person in the area that has an engraver and sending them off for engraving is not really an option because of the time frame involved.

I sell between 25 and 60 grips a week. I believe that the engraving could be requested on 40 to 50 percent of those sales once established. So engraving 10 grips per week at $10 each, that is $100 or $5200 a year . Plus I feel that I could find many more uses for an engraver. I guess I'm just looking for words of encouragement to say "Dave, quit complaining and Go Buy Yourself a Laser Engraver".

Dave

72441

Mike Null
09-24-2007, 5:12 PM
Really sloppy work but my guess is that every piece is going to be different so you'll have a set-up on each piece. Translate that to more money.

I would consider running he engraving parallel to the long edge so the engraving is the same every time.

Also tell him exactly what font you want and how you want it to look.

Gary Hair
09-24-2007, 5:52 PM
With as detailed information as you gave him there should be no reason for a mistake. You say you need to have a local engraver because of the turn-around, but what about the redo's? If you never had a "redo" you would be ahead of the game eventually. Sounds like this guy is not very proficient, you'd be money ahead to find a professional engraver irregardless of where they are located.

Gary

Joe Pelonio
09-24-2007, 5:53 PM
I sell between 25 and 60 grips a week. I believe that the engraving could be requested on 40 to 50 percent of those sales once established. So engraving 10 grips per week at $10 each, that is $100 or $5200 a year . Plus I feel that I could find many more uses for an engraver. I guess I'm just looking for words of encouragement to say "Dave, quit complaining and Go Buy Yourself a Laser Engraver".
Dave

I could say that but at your sales rate it's going to take you over 3 years to pay for the laser.

Are you sure there's no other laser person near you? I think his problem may be lack of experience since you are the only customer. I see there are 4 listed in the Creeker Laser List in your state, and usually UPS is next day within a state at ground rates.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/engravers.php

Dave Fifield
09-24-2007, 5:59 PM
Dave, quit complaining and go buy yourself a laser...... :D

Stan Cook
09-24-2007, 6:18 PM
I agree that is a very poor quality job. The text spacing is also too close together. The angle of the text does not match the angle of the wood laminations. However, the angle does match the angle of the text box that you supplied in the cdr file.

There is an old saying - "If you want something done right, then do it yourself." A laser could complement your current business and allow you to expand to include engraving gun stocks, intricate inlay designs in bow grips & gun stocks, information plates and wildlife scenes for taxidermy shops, etc.

Hilton Lister
09-24-2007, 6:42 PM
The angles are incorrect, but the main problem in my opinion is that far too much power has been used. It looks charred.

Nancy Laird
09-24-2007, 8:05 PM
It's a lousy job, and demands a re-do, IMNSHO. I wouldn't let that out my door back to a customer!

Buy a laser and do it yourself.

Nancy (88 days)

Craig Hogarth
09-24-2007, 8:27 PM
The angles are incorrect, but the main problem in my opinion is that far too much power has been used. It looks charred.

It's not the power, it was way out of focus.

Dave, It should be fairly easy to fix for someone who knows how to work with wood, like yourself. I can't imagine it being burnt too deep. I would also suggest finding another to do this for you instead of buying an engraver. Once you get up to about 70 or 80 engravings a month, then it would be worth it, but anything less wouldn't be worth the effort IMO.

Scott Shepherd
09-24-2007, 9:13 PM
How about finding someone close and mailing them a couple that aren't rush jobs and see how it compares? Either that or tell your laser guy to join this forum so we can collectively help him do a better job :)

Aleta Allen
09-24-2007, 9:19 PM
David,

I see you are in my area. I would be happy to try one for you for free. I was just by your town yesterday. Let me know if I can help.

Aleta

Niklas Bjornestal
09-25-2007, 4:03 AM
If I was to do it I would make the text horizontal and angle the grip when engraving. It would probably be easier to get the angle correct that way.

Luke Phillips
09-25-2007, 4:53 AM
David - did you ask the person that did the engraving what they thought of the result? Do you have any information on what kind of laser they use or if they encountered some problem with the material being lasered? Even if the laser operator is inexperienced, I find it hard to believe they would settle on a less than quality result.

Rob Bosworth
09-25-2007, 10:49 AM
The engraving on the curved grip looks to be a result of autofocus. This guys autofocus is set at the very top of the grip. Once the material is .100" below the focus point, you lose definition and laser intensity. Leaving you with a blurry and "burnt" B. Tell your "engraver" to set his focus half way between the top of the grip and the lowest point, use the longest focal length lens he has, and your grips should come out OK.

Did I read you do ~$ 5,000/ year in engraving grips? Buy a machine. You can buy a very nice reconditioned machine for a lot less than $15,000.

Now, I wonder where someone would go to buy something like that?:cool:

Doug Griffith
09-25-2007, 12:03 PM
I would tell him to build an adjustable alignment jig (easy) and to follow the pattern of the wood, not the .cdr file. That and the other issues previously mentioned.

Doug

David L Shaw
09-25-2007, 4:55 PM
Well I just got 3 more grips back from the engraver and they are all going to be redo's, but the gentleman knows I am not happy with them and since he doesn't have the time to do it properly since he is now in the construction business has agreed to move the laser to my house and allow me to do the engraving. The engraver has an hour meter and we will use the base of $1 per minute of laser time with the first week free to play and learn. Any repairs to the laser will be pro rated out with my actual hours and the total hours on the machine.

Now I've got to get busy and read up on this forum about all the little secrets that you guys give away. I am pretty good with Corel Draw but use mainly Xara Xtreme Pro. The Laser is a Mercury II 25 watt. Have a lot to learn and only a few days to master. :D

I am really looking forward to using this laser and getting my feet wet. Got head off now to some websites and order a few laser material supplies. Any recommendations of what the basics should be to start with?

Thanks for all you input and info. I'm sure we will be "talking" again real soon.
Dave

Ed Lang
09-25-2007, 5:59 PM
"Dave, quit complaining and Go Buy Yourself a Laser Engraver".

:D

James Stokes
09-25-2007, 7:26 PM
David, It is not my money so I really do not care but that is really a bad deal. You will spend a lot of time learning to use a laser. You are going to get hit with some healthy bills at the end of the month. You could buy a laser for less. You are paying full retail price for something you are doing your self.

Bill Cunningham
09-25-2007, 9:52 PM
The 'job'(?) he did on the grip shown, highlights his inexperience, and a complete lack of knowledge.. I would feel horrible if anything I did went 'that' bad.. and, I sure as hell wouldn't do anymore until I found out what I did wrong.. The fact that he 'knows' their bad and still did more, leads me to question his intelligence.. If he's giving you a week of practice use 'free' make good use of it, but $1.00 a minute 'burn time' is still too much..
"Dave, quit complaining and Go Buy Yourself a Laser Engraver".:D

Mike Hood
09-26-2007, 10:36 AM
I agree with the building of an adjustable jig to hold the grips.

If you can get a steady revenue stream from your laser (before even ordering it), I'd say GO FOR IT!

You can get a machine capable of doing smaller scale items like that for less than $10K

AL Ursich
09-26-2007, 12:09 PM
This is a GREAT Place for tips....

Thanks,

AL

Gary Hair
09-26-2007, 3:44 PM
I agree with the others that have said $1.00 per minute is pretty high for "rental", especially if you are paying for repairs.

One thing to consider though is how many minutes per month you will actually use it. Unless you are at 300-400 minutes per month, you may be money ahead to rent it from him instead of buying it. The nice thing about that is that it's his money, not yours, that is on the line for the laser. You can walk away from it at any time and be out nothing - he can't exactly do that, can he?

I would absolutely renegotiate the repairs though, it's his laser and you are paying him a rental fee, he should cover all repairs. Unless you damage the laser by doing something wrong or carelessly, it shoudn't be your responsibility to repair it. Maintenance is another story, you should be responsible for cleaning and lubricating, etc.

Gary

Doug Griffith
09-26-2007, 5:26 PM
If you're going for the $1 deal with 1 week training, I'd use the week to create the jig that will make you money. Otherwise the jig will cost you.

Create a "pocket" jig to drop the part into. Then, create an outside perimeter jig that registers square to the x0/y0 coordinates. The "pocket" jig will float loosely in the perimeter jig. Tape rigid clear plastic sheet on the perimeter jig over the areas to be etched. Tape on only one edge so it can be folded over and away from the part as needed. Lightly etch a grid pattern on the clear plastic and use the same digital file for text placement on the part.

With this jig, you look through the clear plastic to see where the etching happens on the part. Make adjustments. Then flip away the plastic overlay and etch away.

Doug

David L Shaw
09-26-2007, 7:48 PM
If you're going for the $1 deal with 1 week training, I'd use the week to create the jig that will make you money. Otherwise the jig will cost you.

Create a "pocket" jig to drop the part into. Then, create an outside perimeter jig that registers square to the x0/y0 coordinates. The "pocket" jig will float loosely in the perimeter jig. Tape rigid clear plastic sheet on the perimeter jig over the areas to be etched. Tape on only one edge so it can be folded over and away from the part as needed. Lightly etch a grid pattern on the clear plastic and use the same digital file for text placement on the part.

With this jig, you look through the clear plastic to see where the etching happens on the part. Make adjustments. Then flip away the plastic overlay and etch away.

Doug

Doug,
I have already made a jig similar to what you describe, but I had never thought about the clear plastic for a test mark. That's a neat idea and I will incorporate it into my jig design.
Thanks,
Dave

Bill Cunningham
09-29-2007, 12:30 PM
The blue masking tape also works well in setup.. Use the red-dot to get a fix(s) on the area, move those figures to coreldraw, focus on the spot with the mechanical focus thingy or simply measure 2" from the lens and use highspeed low power to mark the tape (with the part held in a jig) once your satisfied with the position, peel off the tape, boost the power, lower the speed and engrave it..

Mike Hood
09-29-2007, 4:42 PM
I wouldn't rent mine for $60/hr. Especially if he's talking about actual run time. I charge $2.50/minute for most all time on mine. I'll reduce the cost a bit for engraving time just to keep the value in it.

Think of it in this light:

A Bobcat excavator costs about the same as a laser ($25,000-$30,000) new. They rent for $145/day and get beat to death, and are expected to last for years. Your laser has a lifespan. You need to protect that investment and recover the costs somehow.