When is it REAL WOOD?

[Chris Foley]

I have always appreciated the best of all furniture. You guys know what I mean...when the entire piece is solid wood and elegantly done. However, how far should one take this? A great piece of curly maple looks great but is very expensive. Having a thin veneer attached to solid wood would be okay. But what about engineered plywoods. I guess that I am speaking a purist here but I am curious to other's view on this.

In short, when does it cease to become "fine woodworking" and enter the "glue and sawdust" routine.

[Pete Bradley]

I think people sometimes get overly hung up on "Fine". I recently had someone comment in a private message that a well known and incredibly skilled contributor had "never done anything fine". There are many different skills and an infinite number of levels. Given that, I don't think there can be a reasonable cutoff for what is fine.

If you can do a beautiful job with solid wood where it counts and veneered ply or low-cost but functional materials where it doesn't, the results will speak for themselves. Those practices can be found in the finest museums in the world.

Pete

[Lee Schierer]

As I have seen commercial furniture marketed, there is a difference betwenn "real wood" and "Solid hardwood" In the former only the top surface aneeds to be the quality wood and the rest is plywood or particle board. Solid hardwood means the exterior pieces are all the same species all the way through the piece. However, I've also seen pieces that were made of poplar and sprayed with a wood finish that looks like cherry that are advertised as solid hardwood. It is pretty much buyer beware as you go into the furniture store sthese days.

The sad part is the majority of buyers and some of the sales people don't know the difference.

[Dale Osowski]

I build only solid wood furniture. Plywood is fine for kitchen and bath cabinets etc.. but I don't want to use it for furniture. Even a veneer over solid wood is something I avoid. I have no problem with others that use plywood and veneer in their work, it's something I choose not to do. I know that work done in ply or veneer can still be high quality, I just prefer solid wood.

Dale

[Matt Chantry]

My feeling is that it can be a mistake to apply a negative connotation to the terms 'veneer' and 'plywood'. To continue the thought, applying an automatic positive light to the term 'solid' is just as much of an error.

Veneered plywood can be a more appropriate choice than solid is some situations. Quality plywood can be stronger and more stable than solid wood.

Additionally, there are environmental sustainability considerations. What is the point of using up 3/4" of a beautiful koa, quilted maple, or rosewood on a single surface when it could be made into veneer and used for multiple pieces?

[mike holden]

"fine woodworking" as relates to furniture is more about the furniture than the way it came to be.
If the design is structurally sound, then pocket hole screws, biscuits, domino loose tenons, ----who cares?

For myself, the journey to finished good is important. I choose to use hand tools whereever it makes sense (to me), and power tools where they make sense.

If this is a hobby, then you only have to please yourself and your significant other, and possibly the recipient of a gift - otherwise, dont worry about it.

If this is a business, then you must make money, and please your client.
Again, otherwise, dont worry about it.

Veneers by the way have gotten a bad rap in this century. Most high style, elegant furniture in the past has been veneered. Just about everything in the palace at Versailles France is veneered or gilded. It is the finish product that makes it "fine".

Just my opinion, YMMV,
Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

Veneering is an art. It always has been. And it has always been an accepted way to get more milage out of a rare or unusual piece of material. In fact some materials would not withstand the "test of time" very well at all if they were to be used in solid form. Of course, I am not referring to the modern practice of covering slabs of compacted sawdust with tissue thin "veneers".

The current standards for what can or can not be called "solid wood" is very deceptive. For example, in many instances, MDF can legally be called "solid wood". Then there is the even more deceptive term, "wood solids" And who knows what that might include! Look up the industry standards for what qualifies as "real wood" or "solid wood" and you will be suprised if not shocked.

[Jim Becker]

Given my recent first experience with veneering the door panels for my vanities, I have a lot of respect for folks who do a lot of veneering. And while I really like working in solid stock, a lot of the work I've been doing lately is better suited to sheet goods for at least the carcass construction. Honestly, when it comes to the kinds of projects that most folks who visit SMC do, the quality and skill that everyone puts into things is a bit more important than the mix of materials they choose to use. For most commercial furniture and cabinetry products...cost is everything, so they are going to choose the mix based on that and find ways to enhance through finishing or other means to come up with something that "looks" good on top, but may not be built as well as even many of the newbies and intermediate woodworkers are capable of doing.

[Lee DeRaud]

However, I've also seen pieces that were made of poplar and sprayed with a wood finish that looks like cherry that are advertised as solid hardwood. It is pretty much buyer beware as you go into the furniture store sthese days.There's a difference between "buyer beware" and "false advertising". Note that the poplar piece you descibe above isn't advertised as "solid cherry", it's advertised as "solid hardwood"...and that's exactly what it is.

[Rick Hubbard]

As I have seen commercial furniture marketed, there is a difference betwenn "real wood" and "Solid hardwood" In the former only the top surface aneeds to be the quality wood and the rest is plywood or particle board. .

Plywood is in my mind, “real wood” because, well, it is REAL WOOD.
I spent quite a few years during my working career working with the industry that produces plywood (and in fact spent about 6 of those years actually MAKING the stuff). Whether this gives me any particular credibility, I’m not sure, but nevertheless I’ll try to explain why I think plywood is “real wood.”
First of all, plywood is nothing more than thin slices of wood that have been joined together by glue. The fact that these pieces of wood are usually very thin should not play into the equation, after all a panel of wood that is used in a cabinet door is also often joined (on edge) by glue. Does that make it less than “real wood”?
Second, plywood should NOT be confused with manufactured wood fiber products (such as MDF, Particle Board, or even strand board). During the manufacturing of plywood, great care is taken to assure that the integrity of the natural wood fibers are maintained. That, of course, is not the case with the former of the two products I just mentioned. Instead, the focus of manufacturing of those products deals with modifying the wood structure in such a way that the bonding mechanism DEFINES the characteristic of the end product.
Having said that, it seems to me that careful attention should be paid to the distinction between “Real Wood” and “Solid Wood.”
A piece that is constructed of entirely of plywood could be as legitimately called “Real Wood Construction” as a piece built from dimensional, non-glued stock.
On the other hand, a piece that contains MDF or particle board is neither “Real Wood” nor “Solid Wood”.
Seems to, maybe the entire matter comes down to marketing ethics.

As the old saying goes, “Just my 2 Denarii”
Rick

[George Summers]

As Mike mentioned, much old 'fine' furniture was veneered. One other thought, MDF and its like was not available to the 16th, 17th, 18th century craftsmen, if it were, it's my bet that you would see it on much of the old 'fine' furniture. The old-timers looked for and used as stable a base wood for veneer that they could find. If they had had something as stable and strong as MDF, they would have used it.

George

[John Timberlake]

I have seen some furniture at Ethan Allen that was "solid wood" - the drawer fronts were walnut burl veneer with poplar core. The problem wasn't the combination, but the poor execution. The walnut veneer was all in 4"x4" squares with no thought given to matching the pieces or even centering them on the drawer. One of the drawers was 6" high with a row of 4" veneer pieces and a row of 2" pieces. Looked horrid.

On the other side of coin, there are a number of "solid wood" antiques that have major cracks because a great looking piece of wood could not stand up with the stresses in the grain pattern. Would have been better as a veneer.

My point is that it has more with how you use the veneer and solid wood that will make a piece of furniture look good and last 200 years than whether it is solid wood or veneer.

[Rod Sheridan]

Many historically significant pieces are veneer over hand made "plywood"

Plywood was as suitable for fine furniture centuries ago, as it is today, if the quality of design, construction, and surface treatment are high enough to make it "fine furniture".

I have to admit, that I'm a snob however, and don't count pocket screws as a suitable construction method except where such methods are required for technical reasons, such as wood movement.

I know, the above makes no sense, however remember, these are just our opinions, not rules or regulations.

As always, I learn many things from our discussions here.......Rod.

[Chris Foley]

I too am learning (which is why I posed the question!). The information gained here is great.

Basically, I had never considered plywood as REAL WOOD. I do consider a good veneer on a solid stock as REAL WOOD. My thoughts on good PLY may be wavering a bit so I will follow up the original question with this:

When making internals of drawers and such, what materials do you use?

In really fine pieces, you will see a lesser grade hardwood for instance. In simple inexpensive pieces you will see plywoods (or worse). There are no right and wrong answers here...I am just thinking out loud (sort of) :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, for drawer internals I use;

- baltic birch plywood

- poplar

- the same material as the drawer face

It depends upon, how large the drawer is, what it's used for and which piece of furniture it's in.

For example, in the living room (Arts and Crafts, quarter sawn white oak), the TV cabinet has BB ply drawer internals to hold DVD and tapes.

The coffee table (I know, there's no such thing as an Arts and Crafts coffee table), has QSO white oak internals because the drawers are small, and have half blind dovetails on the front. It makes me smile when I open the drawer and see the work.

The china cabinet has poplar drawer internals because it looks OK, nicer than BB ply, don't open them often so ........

Hope this adds to the confusion..........Rod.

[Howard Acheson]

There is nothing wrong with veneered furniture. In fact, the best furniture and most expensive furniture for the past 200 years has been made with veneers. It's possible to get better, more attractive veneer than solid wood. The real craftsman and high end woodworkers will use veneers whenever they can to create the appearance they want.

[Todd Jensen]

The other aspect that I didn't see mentioned is the 'green' factor. I think there's something to be said for achieving a satisfactory look and stability with the least amount of exotic woods. As it was alluded to above, I think craftsmanship is what determines quality, not wood species or 'real' wood percentages.

[Dave Avery]

There is nothing wrong with veneered furniture. In fact, the best furniture and most expensive furniture for the past 200 years has been made with veneers. It's possible to get better, more attractive veneer than solid wood. The real craftsman and high end woodworkers will use veneers whenever they can to create the appearance they want.

I agree with Howard. While I'm neither a real craftsman nor a high-end woodworker, I prefer veneer because better figured wood is available and it's also a more ecologically friendly use of a precious resource. The following link is an example....... http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5817&highlight=curly+maple+bookcase

[Glenn Clabo]

Bingo Dave...you understand and say it well.
I would only add to all this...In the "good" old days craftsman picked the wood based on more than what people "believed" to be correct...they picked the wood based on what they thought was right. Sometimes it was looks...sometimes it was cost...in the end the combination is what we all love...and try to be.

[James Carmichael]

Bingo Dave...you understand and say it well.
I would only add to all this...In the "good" old days craftsman picked the wood based on more than what people "believed" to be correct...they picked the wood based on what they thought was right. Sometimes it was looks...sometimes it was cost...in the end the combination is what we all love...and try to be.

Yep, what they all said