Equipment decision

[Chris McDowell]

I am blessed with a problem. I have been more than my share of busy lately and that trend is continuing for which I am very thankful. I'm going to have to hire some help, at least part time, to keep up with the orders. My problem is this, I have long lusted after a slider and still do , but that thought was with me being the sole user of the saw. Now that I'm talking about getting help the Sawstop sounds very appealing, especially since I won't be hiring anyone with much experience on a table saw.
I would feel awful if someone got hurt in my shop and I could have prevented it. So I'd like some opinions from slider users and Sawstop users as well. Not trying to start any fights. Just curious on what everybody thinks. Especially anybody running a business.
I appreciate all the answers in advance.

Chris

[Stan Welborn]

Well, since I don't own either, I'm not even sure my comments are worth $.02. Maybe $.0002 :D My take is the SS has evolved as a way to make a dangerous machine safer, while a slider, by it's very design, is a safer machine to begin with. I would think anyone short of a lobotomized escapee could operate either without you having to overly worry about their safety.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Chris....Stan's advice sounds pretty sage to me. I'm not a smalll business owner...in fact I work for a very large world wide corporation. But my conscience would make me buy one or the other if I was in your shoes....the SS or the slider if I had others working for me. I'd also spend considerable time training those who are going to operate it too! If you get the SS I wouldn't do a hot dog test but I'd find a clip of it and then explain that even wet wood can trip the thing and if in doubt come and get you and let you decide. I couldn't live with the thought of someone losing fingers on my behalf. Good luck with your decision!

[Allen Grimes]

Chris, as somebody who is just barely getting into professional woodworking, and who also owns a cabinet saw, Id say if you can afford it, get the slider.

You're helper may not always be there when you need him/her and the machine is safe enough without the blade stopping technology. Sure its a bigger initial price, but I'm sure you'd be happier with the Slider in the long run.

That said, I have experience with neither and only know what I've seen on the internet so I am just giving you an opinion from somebody who is on the outside looking in.

[Chris McDowell]

That's one of the kickers to the whole thought process. If it is just me there is no question I can do so much more on a slider. And really they aren't that much higher than a Sawstop. I am going to keep my Unisaw one way or the other. Too valuable to use as a dedicated dado or small rip machine.
Truthfully I dread getting any help, but it's tought to do everything alone.

[Alex Elias]

I am blessed with a problem. I have been more than my share of busy lately and that trend is continuing for which I am very thankful. I'm going to have to hire some help, at least part time, to keep up with the orders. My problem is this, I have long lusted after a slider and still do , but that thought was with me being the sole user of the saw. Now that I'm talking about getting help the Sawstop sounds very appealing, especially since I won't be hiring anyone with much experience on a table saw.
I would feel awful if someone got hurt in my shop and I could have prevented it. So I'd like some opinions from slider users and Sawstop users as well. Not trying to start any fights. Just curious on what everybody thinks. Especially anybody running a business.
I appreciate all the answers in advance.

Chris

For safety I'd got with the Saw Stop specially being in bussines. Regardless if you hire experienced people to run the saw, safety first. Not only you'll fell sorry if someone hurts in your shop but you'll deal with a huge liavility.
My 2 pennies
Good luck

[Don Bullock]

Once I found out that the SawStop technology was avaiable and showed the clips of it in action to my wife, I felt that I had no choice. Even if the slider is safer and I'd injured myself somehow on it I felt that I would have no excuse and would have a lot of problems living with that fact. My wife fully agreed. But, that's just my personal way of thinking. Only you can decide if that is what you would think in that case.

As business owner with hired workers it seems that insurance would be a very big area for you to consider. Your insurance provider can give you some information on the insurance costs for both types of saws. There may, or may not, be a difference.

You will also need to look at the cost (time) for training workers to use the saw for the type of work they will be doing. Which type of saw would cut the least time out of the production schedule to train your workers.

The type of work you plan to use the saw for will also be a big factor. Which saw makes it faster and easier to do the type of cuts that you do all the time? Be sure to include any set-up time and the time required to change from one type of operation to another. If you have a collection of jigs that you use in your production work on the table saw, will those transfer over to the SawStop? Will you need to create jigs for the slider or will it do that kind of cut without a jig?

I'm sorry that I'm just a hobbiest, but hopefully I came up with some things for you to consider that may be somewhat helpful. Good luck with your problem.

[Jim Becker]

I find my slider to be extraordinarily safe...primarily because when it's used as a slider, one's hands are never near the blade and the braking system stops the blade in just a few seconds after the cut, reducing the chance for a cut by prematurely reaching for a workpiece or off-cut before the saw spins down. Yes, there is no instant "off" like the SS, but there is a lot to like both in functionality as well as safety. I can honestly say I'm glad I paid more for the slider than a fully-decked-out SS would have cost me...

[Mike Spanbauer]

I believe that the SS is a great solution to a problem that existed with a specific type of saw (and the work methods of using that unit most specifically). That said, I am with Jim in that a slider eliminates the need to be near the blade for any operation. That plus the blade brakes that exist on the big machines is enough to outweigh the nice feature of the sawstop. In addition, the flexibility (albeit, different work method) of a slider vs. a cabinet saw and cut quality is another significant factor. A good slider will set you back 3k more than the SS (roughly) but will expand your capabilities beyond that of a normal cabinet saw (which you already possess).

Mike

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Chris, I have a slider and wouldnt trade it for the world, but yes, you can still cut your finger off on it, if your not using the saw properly. I have one part time employee, that can run all my machines, but I am the only one that touches the saw.

Are you hiring an employee to take your place or to help you? The reason I ask is because a 2 man shop cant keep a saw busy all day, especially a slider, so its not like you or him is going to stand in front of it 8 hours straight. I can cut out an average kitchen 10 to 15 sheets of ply with my helper in 2 to 3 hours. A slider is amazingly fast and accurate, the same can not be said about a SawStop.

I think the perfect situation would be to have both if room and finances cooperate. If you mostly work with sheet goods, a slider is a no brainer. Personally, I wont stand in front of a cabinet saw ever again, no matter how many brakes it has. Just my opinion

[Justin Bukoski]

I've used both and frankly I consider a slider safer than the sawstop. Most saw accidents are caused by kickback. A slider is safer because most cuts (even rip cuts) are done with the slider and the material clamped down.

I guess the easiest way for me to say it is this:

A sawstop saves you when you do something stupid. A slider reduces the chance you'll do something stupid.

[Cary Swoveland]

I had a Minimax CU300 Smart combo machine, which included a table saw with slider. I sold it for a table saw, planer and jointer. The table saw is a SS. It is safer than other table saws, but not appreciatively safer than a slider. I did not do the switch for that reason. The safety consideration was a factor, however, in choosing it over other table saws.

I have no regrets, but that is because I don't often use sheet goods (and when I do, I usually cut them with my Festool circular saw, on my jumbo Festool Multifunction table). A big slider is great with sheet goods, but, for me, of limited value for machining solid wood. I do have a little slider--a Jessem--on my SS, which I like very much.

One thing I didn't like about my slider was the amount of space it took up. Also, if you have an 8' slider--which is best for cutting sheet goods--you'll spend a lot of your day walkin' around it.

Cary

[David Micalizzi]

I’m a cabinet saw owner and hopefully soon to be a slider owner. While I appreciate the safety value with the sawstop and a new employee, I feel you have to base your decision on what will work best for your business. If your business could benefit from having a slider get that. If another cabinet saw would fit well with your business get the Saw Stop. Really, if you hire someone the Saw Stop does not solve your safety issues. What about all the other machines in the shop? Are you going to build breaking devices for all of them? What you need to do is implement a strong safety program and train your new employee to work accordingly. You may need to tryout many different people until you find the right one. Just because you buy a Saw Stop doesn’t mean you can just turn anyone lose in your shop and not have problems. There are so many other dangerous tools and practices inherent to woodworking. The best way to proceed is purchase what will fit best for your business and put in place a strong safety and training program. Just my .02.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I've used both and frankly I consider a slider safer than the sawstop. Most saw accidents are caused by kickback. A slider is safer because most cuts (even rip cuts) are done with the slider and the material clamped down.

I guess the easiest way for me to say it is this:

A sawstop saves you when you do something stupid. A slider reduces the chance you'll do something stupid.

This post makes a lot of sense. For some reason many people seem to think that if they buy a Saw Stop they, (or their employees) are now safe. Huh? Sorry, but the best that can be said regarding safety is that the Saw Stop is safer than a standard table saw but it is in no way, "Safe". I don't know the percentage of TS accidents that are kickbacks but the Saw Stop only has a slight edge for kickbacks over a standard saw because of it's riving knife versus a regular splitter. My definition of, "Safe" is probably different than some but if you can still get hurt or killed without trying with the Saw Stop then that's not safe.

My point to all of this is that hopefully people won't let their guard down, (pardon the pun) while operating the Saw Stop because they now think it's safe. To me the safest tool is the one that keeps the operator out of the line of fire and the hands as far away from the blade as possible. Of the two choices in this thread I'd vote for the slider. If you want to add a third choice that is the safest of all then I'd go with the EZ Smart. In fact, I do for most cuts with my table saw seeing only a little use anymore. Clean, fast, accurate versatile, and above all else, safest of all three choices. If Saw Stop would come out with a slider then they'd really be working towards a more complete package. I'll bet that thing would cost a fortune though considering how much they charge now.

Bruce

[Don Bullock]

...My point to all of this is that hopefully people won't let their guard down, (pardon the pun) while operating the Saw Stop because they now think it's safe...

Bruce

Bruce, I've found the opposite to be true for me. The SawStop has made me far more conscious of saw safety than I ever was on my old Craftsman. I'm also more aware of safety on all my tools after getting the SawStop. As for letting my guard down (actual saw guard), the guard/riving knife combination on the SawStop is easy to use plus it's very easy and quick to remove when it is in the way of a cut and replaced on the saw again. I use my blade guard as much as possible where as on most table saws the people who use them don't even know where their blade guard is.

I will definately agree with you that a SawStop will not protect people from doing "stupid" things, nor will it protect them when working on other tools that may be just as dangerous. I can't see how a slider would prevent some one from doing something stupid with it.

Just curious. --- Do sliders have blade guards? Pictures of sliders, like the ones Jim Becker shows here the slider doesn't seem to have one.

I think the bottom line for the OP is a business decision, not necessarily just a safety issue.

[Andy Pratt]

I have a saw stop and love it. That being said, I would really like to have a slider some times, space being the major thing preventing me right now. If space and money aren't an issue, you could consider purchasing a saw stop and putting an after market sliding attachment onto it. I don't know how well they work, but it's at least something to consider.

[Chris McDowell]

Thanks for all the posts guys. It always helps me to get different view points when I am making a decision. It's looking like it's going to be the slider for me. From a business and a safety stand point it is a pretty impressive package.
As far as differences in insurance goes I'll just have to see. My insurance is up for renewal and I'm in the middle of changing some coverages and maybe companies. I'll bet none of them even know what a slider or a sawstop is, but I shall soon see. I'll let you all know what the insurance says.

Chris

[Richard Butler]

This post makes a lot of sense. For some reason many people seem to think that if they buy a Saw Stop they, (or their employees) are now safe. Huh? Sorry, but the best that can be said regarding safety is that the Saw Stop is safer than a standard table saw but it is in no way, "Safe". I don't know the percentage of TS accidents that are kickbacks but the Saw Stop only has a slight edge for kickbacks over a standard saw because of it's riving knife versus a regular splitter.

Bruce

As far as kickbacks go, they cause the vast majority of injuries. Something like 80+% or more adjusted. A riving knife is, at best, worth $3.00 and will not prevent all kickbacks but it helps.

As far as amputations go, those are relatively rare happenings with the adjusted rate of occurrence around 4% or less. Adjusted means to include all accidents, not just the ones that require a trip to the hospital. Amputations are what the SawStop will prevent. So if an extra 4% of safety is worth 2-3k then by all means get a SS. Personally I think that 2-3k for an added 4% or less, is ridiculous.

[Greg Pavlov]

......As far as amputations go, those are relatively rare happenings with the adjusted rate of occurrence around 4% or less. Adjusted means to include all accidents, not just the ones that require a trip to the hospital. Amputations are what the SawStop will prevent. So if an extra 4% of safety is worth 2-3k then by all means get a SS. Personally I think that 2-3k for an added 4% or less, is ridiculous.
How do you arrive at your estimate of a 2-3K premium for the SS brake?

[Steven Wilson]

Just curious. --- Do sliders have blade guards? Pictures of sliders, like the ones Jim Becker shows here the slider doesn't seem to have one.

Yes, sliders have blade guards. Typically the stock blade guard mounts to the riving knife. Many manufacturers offer an optional blade guard similar to the Excalibur.

As for me I would take the slider over a SS anyday - for panel processing or solid stock.

[Jim Becker]

If space and money aren't an issue, you could consider purchasing a saw stop and putting an after market sliding attachment onto it..

The after market sliders are very different from a Euro Format slider, both in heft and in how they are positioned relative to the blade. They certainly will do some things well, but that relationship between the blade and the wagon is important for others...such as using the slider for straight-line ripping solid stock, etc. How you are going to use the machine, especially in a commercial shop like Chris' has to go into that decision.

[Don Bullock]

Thanks for all the posts guys. It always helps me to get different view points when I am making a decision. It's looking like it's going to be the slider for me. From a business and a safety stand point it is a pretty impressive package....
Chris

Chris, even though I have a SS, if I was in your position with that type of business that would be the direction I'd go. I sure wish you the best. Let us know what you get and how you like it.