Sawstop: 3 or 5HP? Sawstop Fence or Incra/Jointech, etc.?

[Jim Kaczmark]

Am finalizing my purchase decision on the Sawstop cabinet saw. Would like your input on a few things:

Will be using saw primarily for cabinetry (kitchens, baths, etc.), and for misc. built-ins for our home. Will not be used for a business.

What are your thoughts on the 3 vs. 5 HP motor? (Single phase version)

Would you skip the Sawstop T-Glide fence system and replace it with a "precision" fence such as the Incra or Jointech?

Note, if I get a Icra or Jointech, I'd probably be installing a router in the extension table to take advantage of it. (Dovetails, etc.)

Any pro's or con's will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Jim

[David DeCristoforo]

More power...gooood! The Saw Stop fence is at least as good as the Bessy and fine for general cabinet work. The Incra (IMMHO) is a bit "fussy".

[Jim Becker]

Unless the price difference is substantial, there isn't any downside on the higher horsepower in the long run outside of a 30 amp circuit requirement. I'm not personally fond of the Incra/Jointech type fences due to the space they take up, but others swear by them. I prefer a UniFence type fence...

[Homer Faucett]

I went through the same decision process you are making about 6 months ago, and I do a lot of the same type of work you will be doing. I opted for the 3hp unit, as the dealer had it in stock and I could take it home. He had sold the 5hp unit the day before, otherwise I would have probably spent the extra $200 for the upgrade. The 3hp has been more than enough for me, however.

In my opinion, the fence question is completely personal. I ended up buying an Incra fence (same basic construction as the Jointec, and I was able to get it from Amazon for about $275). Don't listen to all the hype--you can get the standard Incra to fit your Sawstop without modification . . . just a slight change in installation is all that is needed (or at least that is what I found to be true in my case). The ONLY drawback to the Incra, in my experience, is the extra space that it can take up when adjusted to its right-most point from the blade. I would disagree with those who say it's fussy. It is much more sturdy and rugged than I expected, and I run full sheets of ply through my saw quite often. The repeatability and ability to dial it in is really nice.

However, as I said, it's totally a personal preference. For example, while Jim really likes the Unifence style fence, I wouldn't have one on my saw again (I had one on my Sawstop for a few weeks while I was waiting for delivery of my Incra). If you like a Bies-style fence, the Sawstop fence is a really nice Bies-style fence.

I will give you one word of caution, though: If you're cutting a lot of sheet goods, if you put the riving knife as close to the blade as recommended in the instruction manual, you may end up with a false trigger of the brake. I don't know if this is actually what happened with mine, but I tripped two cartidges in a few days on mine. When I finally reached their tech support (no one returned my message from two days earlier before I tripped the second one), adjusting the riving knife was their recommendation. I had not tripped a cartridge in the first 6 months owning the saw, and I tripped two within three days of one another. Since that time, I haven't had a problem. I really don't know what was going on with the saw.

[paul kuflik]

I purchased a 3hp Sawstop with an Incra fence about 6 weeks ago. So far I am very happy with both, and the combo. Prior to this I had a 50's era Unisaw with a Biesemeyer fence. The biese is certainly quicker, but probably slightly less accurate, if 1/32" reproduciblity is significant. I'm not certain as yet myself. I also added a router table which influenced my decision to go with the Incra. Hope this helps.

[Warren Clemans]

Homer, just out of curiosity, did you have to eat the cost of the two cartridges and blades? Sounds like it was a design flaw with the saw or the manual, not something that you did wrong. I'm not sure what the right answer is, just curious.

[Gary Tenney]

I bought the 5HP with the SS fence and am delighted with it. I have not handled any sheet good though. Mostly ripping laminates for rocking chair rockers and back braces and the likes.

Paul,
Not to hijack the thread, but what router table did you put in? Did you make one?

[Bill Wyko]

The only down side of the Incra is that the tail end of it will extend off the end of the saw when making wider cuts. If you have the space off the right side of your saw you'll be fine. You can get unmatched accuracy with pretty much anything Incra makes. My BIL uses an Incra fence, you might PM him. His name is Eric Gustafson. He's a member here.:)

[Don Bullock]

Jim, I too bought a SawStop with an Incra fence. It was an upgrade from a 1979 Craftsman with a terrible fence system. Like you, I'm just a hobbiest and since I'm not yet retired, I don't get a lot of "shop time." I can't believe the difference in the SawStop and fence over the Craftsman.

Because it was only $200 more for the 5 hp and I had a 30 amp circuit installed in my shop (my electrician was very nice to me and upgraded it from his 20 amp quote for "free"), I went for more power. No, I haven't needed all that power yet, but compared to the price of the saw it was a "cheap" upgrade. The LOML told me to get the one that I wouldn't have to upgrade, so I did.

I think that the Incra fence is fantastic, but I've only used a Biesemeyer fence a few times so I can't compare them for you. The Incra is very accurate and the accuracy is easy to repeat. I've even had to reset the fence because I was cutting sheet goods wider than the 32". I was amazed at how easily I was able to put everything back with perfect accuracy. Eventually I plan to install a router table to the right of the saw and possibly one to the left too. I'll just have to see what kind of set up I need as I get more into my projects. For now I'm saving up the money for the right side table and lift. Besides, I haven't decided what table top and lift combination I want to put in. I am looking forward to installing the router table because of all the things that I can do with the Incra fence. When I bought the table saw fence I bought all the router table fence attachments as well. It was a little cheaper to buy it all at once that buy them separately. My only regret in not buying the longer 92" Incra rails due to space limitations. Once I'm able to move into a "dedicated" shop space instead of my present garage, I'll but a set of longer rails and legs at the end. As has already been stated, the only "down side" to the Incra is the section that sticks out to the right. For me, it's a small price to pay for having such an accurate fence after putting up with that Craftsman for so many years. But, if you really like a Biesemeyer fence then go with the SawStop fence (unless you were able to find one of the Biesemeyer fence deals at Lowe's). The SawStop fence is very well made.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have the 5hp Sawstop and the T-Glide fence. I upgraded from a 36-752 Delta original Hybrid with a Unifence. I also own a router table with the LS Incra. I might try the Incra fence on the TS as I love it on the router table. The T-glide is super smooth though and works perfect for me. I have broken down sheet goods with no problem but then again I had no problems doing the same on the 2hp Delta. I went 5hp because it was $200 more - I could pay the $200 now for the upgrade but $200 more latter on would not buy the upgrade so I did it right from the beginning. I have the 30amp circuit in place an it works awesome.

Anyone ever upgrade the sawstop to a 6" DC connection?

Also - I recommend the HTC HST-3274EX base. I added a shelf to it and installed a black ball bearing tool cabinet underneath and it is a sweet machine.

[Bob Feeser]

Is a 3hp motor better than a 5hp motor?
Is an Incra fence easier to set, and give you more accurate cuts?
I always respected the guy with the hole in his racket, and an old faded pair of cut off jeans, and he blew everyone off of the tennis court. So I understand that sometimes less is more. But with that said, I don't think people truly appreciate the Incra fence. So let me ask a few questions.
When you cut a pile of pieces, all the same size, and then need to go back to that setting, do you spend an inordinate amount of time, and wasting scrap, trying to find that same exact setting, because the hair line on the fence rule just doesn't get it accurate enough? Then when you think it is just right, do you put the piece in the stack, and your finger still feels the edge, and the final cut piece becomes the sore thumb.
Remember that the Incra gives you exact repeatability. You don't even need your glasses on when resetting it. Just get it close, and it automatically drops in a perfect setting again. Not even a single sandpaper wipe of a difference, and in an instant. No wasted time.
When going through 2" thick hardwood, and wishing to make a single pass, to create a surface that does not need jointing is additional horsepower an advantaqe to not let the motor slow down, and start to cause burning? With the additional horsepower can you more finely tweak your feed rate without having to consider the motors power? It's just one less thing to have to juggle in the middle of a cut.
When cutting sheet goods, or any larger stock, does your fence shift a slight angle at the outer edge, or does it have 2 places, or 3 to attach itself, or does it just attach on the one edge closest to you?
If you put a true straight edge against the face of your fence, is it off by a few thousandths, or more in the middle, or is it made out of highly quad channeled alumimun with zero deflection or warpage?

Enough with the questions already. :eek:

The 72" rails are all you need by the way. You just set them at the left edge of your saw, before the extension, then you can cut up to 48 1/2", which is all you need for 8 foot ply. Here is a pic of that setup, shown with the 50 dollar Woodpeck adjustable extension legs for the Incra fence. I haven't checked the price on them recently though.
http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/4251/2918871520100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

I don't need to use my fence to the left side of the blade. By the way here is a tip when creating an outfeed table, considering having to accomodate the Incra twin rails.
http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/5861/2149760690100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

Look I understand that 5hp is overkill for cutting regular stock, but since the price of the 5 is only a couple of hundred at most, more than the 3, once you get north of 2500, a couple of hundred should not break the bank. Another consideration is the electrical. A 40 amp is what was required for my PM mustard machine. The wire costs a little more than a 30 amp, and the breaker costs a little more, but if you have the capacity in the regular panel, go for it.
What do I think of 3hp machines with Beis fences? Let me explain it this way, I have my old Sears 1hp contractors saw, hooked up the the AccuFence that came with my PM, and I love it. It wasn't until I was doing a door job for a customer, and the 2" oak was filling my shop with smoke, and burning the wood, then I discovered the 50 year old saw had a belly in the middle, because the motor was attached to the top, instead of the cabinet, that forced me into the other room, and ordered the saw. With the 1hp saw, I was butchering the cuts, burning the wood, creating ragged saw marks, and then had to joint the edges to clean them up, which is not the ultimate for making final passes to get perfectly parallel widths.
Everyone has to fit their own needs, budget, space, and cutting requirements, but if you have the room, go for it.
Mate your Saw stop up to a Forrest WWII 40 tooth blade, and enjoy glass smooth, ready to be installed cuts, with a 3 hp, or whatever you are running.
By the way you mentioned that you are combining routing into the saw extension. The following picture of the Sears saw, before I acquired the PM, will create some food for thought. The router fence closest to you has a block of wood that fits in a trough, in the back of the fence, so the Incra can be used in reverse for setting that fence as well. The block is off in the pic so the fence center piece can slide through it. You just set one of the 4 tape rules in reverse, calibrating it to the router fence instead.
http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/6522/2019118030100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

Jim,
This is about my 4th edit, and I know it is getting lengthy, but do you have a saw now? I kept the Sears saw, and turned it into the roll around portable routing station. It was my Dad's old saw, and I built a base for it too.
http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/3896/2457906590100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
Like I said, I love the new one, and I love the old one. Circa 1950 hot rodded with the Accu Fence.
http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/97/2093926870100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

[Ted Baca]

As an owner now for 10 months I can say that I have never run in to a situation where I wished for more power. That 3 HP motor sawstop provides is a torque monster. I rip 3/4 plywood pretty regular and as mentioned plenty of power. Coming off a 15 year stint with 1 1/2 hp Craftsman I am on the honeymoon with this saw. I did not buy the fence I have an Excalibur that I kept and installed and actually bought another fence head assembly since they are no longer made. Excalibur was bought by General and I guess General doen't realize what a great fence it is.
I would save the 200 and put it towards the Incra were in your shoes.

[Homer Faucett]

That all remains to be seen. I've been quite busy lately, and haven't had time to break my blades loose, send in the brakes, and highlight the relevant portions of the owner's manual to the representatives. I'm hoping that they will at least replace the two breaks for free. Some nice gesture in at least fixing and/or inspecting the two blades would be much appreciated as well.


Homer, just out of curiosity, did you have to eat the cost of the two cartridges and blades? Sounds like it was a design flaw with the saw or the manual, not something that you did wrong. I'm not sure what the right answer is, just curious.

[Eric Gustafson]

That 3 HP motor sawstop provides is a torque monster. I rip 3/4 plywood pretty regular and as mentioned plenty of power.

It is good to hear that 3hp is well enough. I rip a lot of 3/4 ply on my 1 1/2hp Craftsman and find that is well sufficient power for that task.

However, how does 3hp perform when cutting 8/4 or thicker hardwoods? I ask because I am putting a subpanel in the garage and am trying to anticipate how big it must be.

[paul kuflik]

To be perfectly accurate, I have not as yet installed the router table. I purchased one from Woodpeckers with a router lift. I am planning to use a Porter Cable 7518 with it. The "sticking out" of the fence arm to the right of the table is somewhat annoying, but not enough to be a deal breaker.

[Dan Stuewe]

Please humor my ignorance...

From what I've seen of the Incra and Jointech fences, there are two moving parts. The carriage that rides on the rails and the fence that is adjusted on the carriage. It looks to me that the rulers measure between the carriage and the fence. If you move the carriage along the rails, how do you re-calibrate the rulers and get the perfect repeatably?

[Greg Funk]

It is good to hear that 3hp is well enough. I rip a lot of 3/4 ply on my 1 1/2hp Craftsman and find that is well sufficient power for that task.

However, how does 3hp perform when cutting 8/4 or thicker hardwoods? I ask because I am putting a subpanel in the garage and am trying to anticipate how big it must be.
The only reasons for more than 3HP on a tablesaw would be to enable the use of dull blades or a powerfeeder.

Greg

[Don Bullock]

Please humor my ignorance...

From what I've seen of the Incra and Jointech fences, there are two moving parts. The carriage that rides on the rails and the fence that is adjusted on the carriage. It looks to me that the rulers measure between the carriage and the fence. If you move the carriage along the rails, how do you re-calibrate the rulers and get the perfect repeatably?

Dan, that's a good question. There is only one moveable part for most cuts. That's the bar that the fence is attached to. It slides through the carriage and has the measuring tape and lead screw that locks the fence exactly where it's supposed to be within a 32nd of an inch. The only time the carriage is moved is when a cut wider than the length of that center bar is needed. The carriage is them moved on the rails to point with stops that have already been set, so the accuracy is still there.

[Bill Wyko]

I will say, I have 2 incra fences on router tables and if it weren't for the accuracy their tools offer I'd never be able to do what I do. Check out www.incra.com (http://www.incra.com) and on the bottom left corner is the link to their gallery. My work is on the bottom left of the gallery page. If you like, Let me know what you think. I don't have the budget for the sawstop yet, but it is on my to get list for sure. IMHO, I'd go the 5hp if it's only 200 bucks difference.

[Bob Feeser]

It is good to hear that 3hp is well enough. I rip a lot of 3/4 ply on my 1 1/2hp Craftsman and find that is well sufficient power for that task.

However, how does 3hp perform when cutting 8/4 or thicker hardwoods? I ask because I am putting a subpanel in the garage and am trying to anticipate how big it must be.

Subpanels are cheap, put in as much as your service can handle. 200amp at a minimum. Some new homes put in quantity of 2 - 200 amp panels. With 5 hp you may need 40 amps. That is what PM told me to hook up my 5.
I do want to say that Norm Abrams uses a 3, and with these industrial grade motors 3 is plenty. If you have the extra couple of hundred dollars, and a little extra for the 8 guage wire and breaker, go 5. Otherwise run the 30 amp and go 3. I must admit, I have seen Norm cut some heavier stock in a hardwood, and do it in 2 passes though. He cuts half way through, then flips it over, and cuts it on the other side. That creates a nice little center ridge. Uh Oh, did I jjust open up a blade capacity, vs horsepower study??? :rolleyes:

Either way with the 3 or the 5, you will be able to hadle just about anything, except Tim the Tool man Grrrrhhhhhh., :)

[Jim Kaczmark]

Thank you for all of the excellent information. Regarding HP, it sounds like if I can expect to be doing any deep cutting that I'd be not necessarily that much better with the 5HP, but my power "safety" margin would be better. I may end up building a few doors, and perhaps even making a few timber accents for the home... both sound like they would be better suited for the 5HP motor.

I'm still a bit up in the air on the fence. I'll head to the local (Spokane, WA) Woodcraft store where they will be having demonstrations next week on the sawstop... perhaps I could get a better feel for my direction there. I do not own a table saw right now... I'm jumping in all the way right off the bat one might say. How can the Sawstop be made to sound less expensive? By adding up the savings from not purchasing a few other saws first as one "works up", and by having all 10 digits available to help do the math with!

[Don Bullock]

...How can the Sawstop be made to sound less expensive? By adding up the savings from not purchasing a few other saws first as one "works up", and by having all 10 digits available to help do the math with!

That sounds like good economics to me.:D BTW - I still have all 10 too and I plan on keeping them. I've found that with the SawStop I'm much more conscious of saw safety than I used to be.

[Bill Wyko]

Not to mention the price you could pay if something went terribly wrong and you were to get your fingers in the blade. I, myself have touched the table saw blade but was lucky enough to have not gotten hurt and I've been using a table saw for probably 30 years. It sure scared the potatoes out of me. Experience will not protect you but that sawstop will. Good luck with your purchase.

[Scott Rollins]

I have the Sawstop 3HP with the Incra 32" fence and rails. Properly set-up it is cabable of a 48" cut. I am very impressed with the set-up. However, as several have noted when you are making a wide cut, the incra fence hangs off alot. I also have found difficulty in crosscut situations on rough stock. I must remove the fence bridge system to do these cuts--it is rather awkward and heavy. I have resorted to using a hand held circular saw for these cuts. On a positive note it is unbelievable in terms of the accuracy it provides.
I have come up with a solution to the flipping the fence for my table routing I hope incra will provide a bracket for this someday. I can install and remove the router fence in about 15 secs. I will probably add the wonderfence or the jessem fence when I get the money. Check out the pics for my set-up and gloat.
72315

72316

72317

72318

[Carl Crout]

3hp is plenty. 5 hp will cost you more upfront, more in operating expenses and more if you have to replace it.

The only reason that hobbyists (not commercial operators) get a 5 hp is to try and impress someone.

[David Giles]

Hey, I'm impressed with the 5Hp Sawstop guys! I try to imagine the muscle it takes to lug a 3Hp Sawstop and mentally picture some bodybuilder dudes pushing that board through a 5Hp machine!

Besides the saw motor should always be bigger than the router motor because...umm....it just should.

The Incra fence is preferred for the Sawstop due to color coordination. Gold just goes with black.

[Steven Wilson]

Unless you're planing on using a powerfeeder buy the 3HP saw as it is more than sufficient for any operation you will use your table saw for by hand feeding. If you anticipate cutting thick stock often then get a large bandsaw (say a Minimax MM20 with a 1" trimaster) as they are more appropriate than a table saw for cutting thick stock (greater than 2" thick).

[Kirk Poore]

3hp is plenty. 5 hp will cost you more upfront, more in operating expenses and more if you have to replace it.

The only reason that hobbyists (not commercial operators) get a 5 hp is to try and impress someone.

And, other things being equal, kickback will be worse (higher velocity) with a 5 hp saw than with a 3 hp, since the more powerful motor will fling a heavier piece at a higher velocity

Kirk

[Vic Damone]

Please humor my ignorance...

From what I've seen of the Incra and Jointech fences, there are two moving parts. The carriage that rides on the rails and the fence that is adjusted on the carriage. It looks to me that the rulers measure between the carriage and the fence. If you move the carriage along the rails, how do you re-calibrate the rulers and get the perfect repeatably?

Dan, To elaborate a little more on Don's explanation, when the basemount (the piece that spans the table and connects to the rails and holds the positioner/tape) is moved to accommodate the widest rip, the amount of basemount movement must be added to what the tape is showing. During the initial setup of the system, stops on the rail are positioned so when the basemount is moved to the other set of stops initial accuracy is maintained. Mine is set up with a ten inch difference so I simply add ten inches to what the tape is showing.

Vic

[Carl Crout]

Hey, I'm impressed with the 5Hp Sawstop guys! I try to imagine the muscle it takes to lug a 3Hp Sawstop and mentally picture some bodybuilder dudes pushing that board through a 5Hp machine!

Besides the saw motor should always be bigger than the router motor because...umm....it just should.

The Incra fence is preferred for the Sawstop due to color coordination. Gold just goes with black.

Table saw motors and router motors are not rated the same. No way is a 3 hp PC router producing the same 3hp that the marathon motor in my Uni produces.

[Jeff Raymond]

Got a 3 hp Unisaw, and had one about 20 years ago. Nice saw and have no complaints. I did get the Biesemeyer fence this time around and it is a disappointment, to say the least. I'd go for the Unifence again if I could. Very over-rated IMHO.

Same goes with the SS. They are getting a pretty penny for their saw. But my biggest gripe with it is the very idea that you can put your fingers into a saw blade without fear of ripping them to shreds. I think that is fundamentally a bad idea.

So then you go to your BS or jointer and do the same? Part of the discipline in a wood shop is to teach yourself how not to get hurt by your intellect and instincts. The SS is a fake out and I am afraid that it dulls that instinct with a false sense of security.

Sounds old fashioned? Oh well, I only have about 20 more years to go at this so you won't have to put up with this rant for a REAL long time.

Good luck on your choices; remembering that what you buy is what you got.

[Dan Lee]

Same goes with the SS. They are getting a pretty penny for their saw. But my biggest gripe with it is the very idea that you can put your fingers into a saw blade without fear of ripping them to shreds. I think that is fundamentally a bad idea.

got.

Good gosh do you really believe SS prospective buyers or owners think that. :confused:

[Ted Baca]

Eric, I would make sure you have plenty of room for the expansion. I have a 200 amp service and have been using a lot more 220 than when I built.
Never too much space in a breaker box. As far as the power mentioned on the SS I thought my 1 1/2 hp Sears was plenty too until I got this saw. There is a difference that I think has to be experienced to make the comparison.

[David Giles]

Table saw motors and router motors are not rated the same. No way is a 3 hp PC router producing the same 3hp that the marathon motor in my Uni produces.

And here I was thinking it was just the speed controller!

I still say a "real man" has a 5 Hp router.

[Jeff Raymond]

I don't believe that SS owners or prospective buyers 'think' they can stick their finger in to the saw safely.

My point here is that training instincts to have respect for all tools, power or otherwise is a critical phase in developing good shop skills. I want to think that everything I touch in the shop can damage fragile skin and bone and have respect for it all.

My 2 cents worth is that a SS is a false sense of security and undermines that discipline; the intuition of respecting everything that can cut wood.

But hey, I've been wrong lotsa times before.

[keith ouellette]

I want to buy an Incra for my router and after seeing your set up I think I will go in that direction. What modle fence do you have. I was just looking at the Ts Ls and it looks like yours. Does it work well with the router and did you have to buy a different fence with an opening for the router bit.

[bill gow]

i have the incra with 92 inch rails and to accomodate the 52" rip measurement i simply have another tape in of the four channels that picks up where the 32" leaves off i don't like doing math. i am also considering a sawstop i currently have a 2 hp general which will struggle with 8/4 hardwood. i spoke to lee valley about purchasing the 3hp without a fence and was told they could not sell the machine without the fence system my question has anyone purchased a sawstop minus the fence ?

[Jim Becker]

Bill, I think you're going to find it to be a challenge to buy any new saw without a fence. Stuff is pretty much "packaged" these days. But you do have the option of selling the OEM fence once you have it if you have something else you prefer...it may be a great upgrade for someone else.

[Roy Turbett]

Unless the price difference is substantial, there isn't any downside on the higher horsepower in the long run outside of a 30 amp circuit requirement. I'm not personally fond of the Incra/Jointech type fences due to the space they take up, but others swear by them. I prefer a UniFence type fence...

+1 - I have the 5 hp in a shop similar to what you're considering. I don't see any difference in performance between the 5 hp SawStop and the 3 hp Unisaw it replaced. I also prefer my old Unifence with the aftermarket Uni-T-Fence to the stock Sawstop fence.

[michael dilday]

I have the 3 hp SawStop Professional Cabinet saw and it is plenty for me. I do quite a bit of woodworking and have no issues with the 3 hp. I upgraded several years ago from an old Craftsman table saw my Daughter and Son-In-Law have it now. I have the Kreg Miter and just purchased the Incra Miter & Sled combo. I think I like the Kreg miter better but the Incra miter is dead on accurate.

[Steve Demuth]

I just love the way this group picks up on ten year old (to the day in this case) conversations as if only a day had passed.

[Jim Becker]

I just love the way this group picks up on ten year old (to the day in this case) conversations as if only a day had passed.
That's a good benefit of a mature forum community...lot's of good information and dialog in the knowledge base and much of it still is relevant. :)

[Nick Decker]

That's a good benefit of a mature forum community...lot's of good information and dialog in the knowledge base and much of it still is relevant. :)

Absolutely. Active threads, while often interesting, seldom relate to the same kinds of information I need. The archives are the gold mine.