New Dovetail Plane.

[harry strasil]

I finished my New Dovetail Plane Today, but I can't put it here as it has a cord. LOL So its in the Power Tool Section.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

That's OK Harry...I got you covered for this section...

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/dt_plane/philly_plane_0002.jpg

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/dt_plane/dt_0007a.jpg

Take care, Mike

[Don Orr]

I like it a lot Harry, you never cease to amaze me with your innovative ideas and craftsmanship.

[Derek Cohen]

Harry, that is the Devil's work ... :)

And Mike, Philly's work leaves mine for dead ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Tools%20that%20I%20have%20made/SlidingdovetailplaneUB.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pam Niedermayer]

How about a link? I can't find it via search or browse.

Thanks,
Pam

[Jason Beam]

Pam: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=65598

Mike or Derek, could you possibly point me to a source for these animals? I've been searching here and there and keep runing into fillister planes and the ECE (?) made one that doesn't look like the two that you guys have shown. Where might a knuckledragger find one of those? :)

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks, Jason.

Harry, that's not a plane, it's a fence with handles. :) Very clever.

Pam

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jason

I will let Mike tell you all about his dovetail plane. You can go here for mine:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/dovPlane/index.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Phil Edwards from the UK Workshop--known as Philly--is who made the DT plane. He's made planes for himself and recently began making them for others.

This is a photo of a DT plane from a fairly recent MJD auction that I lost the bid on...so I asked Phil if he would be willing to make it for me. The result in Indian Rosewood is the picture above.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/dt_plane/dt_plane.jpg

So we worked out dimensions, he made the fence deeper for me and recently shipped it to me. There was also another plane at that auction and I lost the bid on it as well. It is a molding plane-sized panel raising plane. I hear it is nearly complete.

This was the last photo he sent me:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/dt_plane/mw1.jpg

His web site is:
http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/

Take care, Mike

[Robert Trotter]

A question on blades:o

What is the purpose of the "flag" part at the top end of the blade? Why not just a straight through section?

Rob

[Jake Darvall]

For the cleanist finish, a dovetail plane design should be considering a skewed bed in the right direction ! ...Those look like lovely planes, and no doubt they work to a degree, but not as well as they could IMO.

and :rolleyes: I'm sorry if that puts people on the back foot in defence of their loved planes. But I'm certain its a fact. It should be the focus of a dovetail planes design, and yet it never seems to be mentioned.

[Derek Cohen]

Jake

These dovetail planes (well, speaking for mine with certainty and expecting it from Philly's) do have both a skewed sole and a skewed blade.

Or are you referring to something else?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Darvall]

yes the direction of the skews what I'm talking about. very important to the quality of finish. And the more the skew the better the finish.

I don't know about Phils...but Dereks by the look of it is skewed in the right direction from a photo I saw in that thread he got at wkfinetools. But its only a slight skew. :eek: it works no doubt, but the finish would be better if it was more skewed. (sorry I hope I don't offend)

There's a bit in all of these that describes what I'm talking about.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=25000&highlight=dovetail+plane


http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=33429&highlight=dovetail+plane

Lot of wordy stuff to sift through. But there's a picture in this next thread that describes it all IMO showing blade orientation of my dovetail blade and another I made that also goes cross grain.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=34409&highlight=dovetail+plane

Basically, all I'm saying is, the success of your dovetail plane is dependent on which way the blades skewed AND how much it skews. The blade must slice in over the timber (with the grain) and the more it skews the better. There's actually a dovetail plane(that first link) that seems to skew in the wrong direction, and the finish shown from Zenwoods trial seems to backup what I'm saying as well. A production plane.

Ideally want the plane to leave a polished finish with nill tearout as the plane exits the timber.

[George Springer]

The ECE does a good job cutting dovetails. I wouldn't look past it for the price. GS

[Jake Darvall]

I really don't want another arguement with anyone Mike. I really don't.

I promise you....if I thought my point was wrong, now or after what you've written I would say as much.

Its important I think to accept that there's going to be a good chance of differing opinions. We've all got different experiences .



I believe the main reason doesn't have to do with being any easier to make--it takes the same amount of work either way. Instead I think it has to do with avoiding the use of a nicker to score the shoulder line, as well as accepted practice of knifing cutting lines on cross-grain work and general layout.

If the blade of a DT plane skews so the trailing edge is at the shoulder, it helps of have a nicker all the way down through the full depth of cut. Else the shoulder definition is ratty and may push the plane away, stepping down into the cut slightly and ruin the DT definition.

:confused: you wont have a ratty shoulder line with a nicker.

and where you say it may push the plane away......I understand what your saying, and I considered that to be a potential problem origionally too. But it doesn't affect the dovetail cuts for some reason. (I'm saying that because I've done it dozerns of times successfully and its no problem....I'm not saying it to be deliberately negitive ok)



On a wooden plane design such as mine, there could be a choking of the throat as one gets deeper. This is not an issue on an open plane design like a metal plow such as Jake is using, nor on one with a upward escapement such as the ECE-type. But it would be an issue on a side escapement plane.

Yes there is a potential problem there for shore. But if that area is open enough, its not a problem. Shavings still look to clear out the side of the plane.



So what is most important to me? A sharp cutter. That resolves most all finish issues with any of the three main types of DT planes.

yes, I agree, with all planes its important. But it doesn't matter how sharp the blade is........if you blades cutting against the grain you'll encourage tearout right ?.....

It maybe tricky to visualise the concept of cutting with the grain when the planes actually moving cross grain, but like any woodworking cut it plays the most important part. You must cut with the grain.......or in this case 'slice' with the grain to get a clean finish.

Really....... I'd love to just plain agree with your guys just to 'look' friendly etc.......but I've done too many experiments with these dovetail planes, and they all suggest the same thing........skew the blade to slice with the grain (I'm not yelling)

When the blade cuts nicely the plane is naturally easier to control as well. Instead of potentially teary cuts, you have an effortless clean cut. You can feel the difference immediately. And the results are tops. I'd never buy a ECE.

The current dovetail planes may be considered adequate. Shore. They'll work. But they'll tear out shoulders on occation and breakout as you exit the timber. Shore you can patch up. But why wouldn't you want something better ? Honestly I'd prefer to run my dovetails through a router table than risk that.

My unweildy 55 is taking cleaner cuts than a dedicated dovetail plane !

I think you'd have to ask Derek himself.......but from what I've seen of his plane, its slicing to cut with the grain. Happened probably because thats how the origional was made (old rebate plane wasn't it) and it looked right to have shavings escape that way...so guessing he naturally put the fence on the right.......but as a consequence, he's turned it into a left handed plane

[Mark Stutz]

Derek,
In the last line of your article you mention working on a plane to cut the female part of the dovetail. Any progres? That is the part that is most intimidating to me...probably because my sawing ability is still in the "needs improvement" phase.:D

Mark

[Derek Cohen]

I think you'd have to ask Derek himself.......but from what I've seen of his plane, its slicing to cut with the grain. Happened probably because thats how the origional was made (old rebate plane wasn't it) and it looked right to have shavings escape that way...so guessing he naturally put the fence on the right.......but as a consequence, he's turned it into a left handed plane

Hi Jake

A couple of points for the record: the original plane came with a skew blade and a flat sole. I added the skewed sole. The issues concerning the relationship of the leading edge of the blade and the skew direction of the sole were discussed at length Steve Knight in the months before I built the plane. It is all on page 592 of the manual I released shortly afterwards:"Her lusty boosum heaved ..." oops, wrong manual ... here it is ..

Of note, the sole has been angled such that the leading edge of the blade cut to the outside, while the trailing edge cut into the shoulder of the dovetail.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/dovPlane/dovPlane2.asp

There is also a large amount of information in this regard that I tapped into on the Old Tools Archive (my discussions there predate our discussions on Ubeaut):
http://people.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/search.phtml?submit_search=1&search_words=dovetail%20plane&number_returned=25&result_start=25#results

The point is that the plane's design was not arrived at by chance. There are a lot of knowledgeable woodworkers out there who have gone before us. This is not meant to take away any of the superbly creative thinking you have put into the skew design for the #45.

I suspect that the reason Zenwood had such a poor performance was that a near total lack of experience in using his dovetail plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Darvall]

What happened to your post Mike. Somebody erased it. Sitting here in my outlook express.




..." oops, wrong manual ... here it is ..


yes !!!! you've acknowledged my point. Thank god. So why didn't you include it in your thread ?

You must have noticed the improvement you achieved by skewing the blade in this plane over the experiements you had before. I had remarkable improvements just by skewing the blade slightly in that 55.

Its the same concept for any cross grain cut....panel raising for example ,right ? that cuts profile slopes away, so the planes bed must skew to ensure its blades slices in over the fibres with the grain.

Stick a regular edge profile blade in your 55 and try cutting it cross grain, and you'll get a mess. And its not because its a 55 or because the mouth is open etc. Its because the beds not skewed as it should be.



The point is that the plane's design was not arrived at by chance. There are a lot of knowledgeable woodworkers out there who have gone before us. This is not meant to take away any of the superbly creative thinking you have put into the skew design for the #45.

Thankyou, but I'm never after praise. I only brought it up because its clear that its the most important aspect to be aware of in designing a dovetail plane. Yet people don't even seem to mention it. :confused:



I suspect that the reason Zenwood had such a poor performance was that a near total lack of experience in using his dovetail plane.

Well...... I've probably had too much experience with dovetail planes, and when I had a go using the ECE, its results were substandard in my book too. At least compared to planes that slice with the grain.

So ??? But I shouldn't say that since everyones reading!!!......I should something like this instead.

The ECE dovetail plane is one of the best planes I've EVER used.:) :) <- and finish it smiling like a wombat. ;)

[Jake Darvall]

Are there any non-traditionalist woodworkers out there who'd like a chin-wag ? Because often I feel like I'm the only one here.

I'm really quite interested in talking about factors that I would have thought are most important to woodwork. Topics that concerning getting the cleanist cuts possible etc, and much less so on Traditional stuff and prettyness. or anything else that'll hamper that.

From much experimentation for instance here...... I've got something to offer (wouldn't bother bringing it up if it was proven improvement) and yet its shrugged off, by those who seem to have not even tried it.

Does anybody know of any blokes out there who like experimenting with hand planes ?

[Michael Pilla]

Careful, don't misinterpret the silence. I don't think you're being shrugged off. In fact I often seek out your posts on several different forums because I want to hear this info. I save the good threads as web archives and file them with my reference materials. I don't get involved in the conversations because I'm often unqualified to add anything pro or con but I certainly appreciate the info.

Michael
(who has no idea what a chin-wag is)
:)

[Mark Stutz]

Absolutely Jake, don't stop. I ereally enjoy reading your approach and seeing your resutls, so don't stop. I've never used a DT plane, yet, and am nowhere close to your level of skill so don't feel like I cancomment, but I enjoy learning.

Mark

[Jim Dunn]

I've got something to offer (wouldn't bother bringing it up if it was proven improvement) and yet its shrugged off, by those who seem to have not even tried it.

Jake I'd comment but I don't have the experience or the knowledge to express an opinion pro or con. I do like to read and adsorb your posts, so please do continue. By the way, if I "chin wag" around the house my wife thinks I'm making faces at her and I gotta duck:eek:.

[Jake Darvall]

Careful, don't misinterpret the silence. I don't think you're being shrugged off. In fact I often seek out your posts on several different forums because I want to hear this info. I save the good threads as web archives and file them with my reference materials. I don't get involved in the conversations because I'm often unqualified to add anything pro or con but I certainly appreciate the info.

Michael
(who has no idea what a chin-wag is)
:)

just means having a talk.

my opinions annoy traditionalists. Be a different story if were all into power tools I'd imagine.

Thanks though guys.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

I suspect anyone can annoy anyone else--and as I have said before, it doesn't me and I do enjoy your posts, Jake.

So start a thread and jabber on.

Take care, Mike

[Jake Darvall]

:rolleyes: ta Mike.

[Derek Cohen]

Jake

I am also up for a discussion - just don't expect too much at this moment as I have been struggling with flu the past week.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Darvall]

Jake

I am also up for a discussion - just don't expect too much at this moment as I have been struggling with flu the past week.

Regards from Perth

Derek

the conversation started back there somewhere Derek. :D

But I understand. I've got the flu at the moment too. Glands up etc. I tried to brave work this morning but the boss sent me home.

So I'll let you be. My questions maybe too confronting anyway. Hope you feel better soon.