Forrest Demo

[Bob Moyer]

Saturday I went to the Forrest blade demo at the local Woodcraft store; being new to this hobby I went with a lot of questions but more importantly an open mind.

What I observed was that the WWII is an amazing blade. He (Ray Collier) recommended a thin kerf blade 40 teeth which surprised me since I thought I needed at least 60 or more for ripping hardwood flooring and my other projected projects of adirondack chairs; ripping plywood and constructing a workbech.

In a discussion with someone there, I got the impression that a splitter was not necessary and he did not have the guard in place, although I realize one could observe the cutting better without it.

Since this was my first visit to a Woodcraft store I was very impressed with there desire to help and educate as I walked around the strore looking at all the products available in this new hobby.

We also discussed blades for a miter saw and he supported previous comments to a post I made that I need a negative tooth rake.

[Brian Penning]

You certainly got my attention with your " In a discussion with someone there, I got the impression that a splitter was not necessary".
Did this person say this because of the WWII blade or in general?
One way or another he/she was incorrect or you got the wrong impression.

[Bob Moyer]

You certainly got my attention with your " In a discussion with someone there, I got the impression that a splitter was not necessary".
Did this person say this because of the WWII blade or in general?
One way or another he/she was incorrect or you got the wrong impression.

I did not ask the question, but the saw being used did not have one and the individual who was asking a lot of questions has a Ridgid TS3650?? and when he asked that he does not use on on the Ridgid, he was not told that he had to have one for the thin kerf blade. Again as someone new to this I did not want to correct.

The Forrest rep did make the comment on a number of occasions that you need to adjust your fence so it is "NOT SQUARE" but is a little wider at the opposite 1/32 ??? exit side of the saw. He said that since the cutting tool place at the front of the blade, that this did not matter.

I did question this to make sure I heard correctly.

[Don Bullock]

...
What I observed was that the WWII is an amazing blade. ...

In a discussion with someone there, I got the impression that a splitter was not necessary and he did not have the guard in place, although I realize one could observe the cutting better without it.

Since this was my first visit to a Woodcraft store I was very impressed with there desire to help and educate as I walked around the strore looking at all the products available in this new hobby.

...

Bob, first of all welcome to your new hobby. It sounds like your visit to WoodCraft was like "a kid in a candy store." Enjoy.

Please do not listen to those who tell you not to use a blade guard or splitter. It isn't safe! I'm not sure if it's a "mocho" thing to do or what, but it isn't the "best" thing to do. If you set up your fence accurately you won't have to "see the cut." It's true that if you're using a thin kerf blade that most splitters won't work because they are wider than the blade. That's one reason I use a standard kerf blade.

Yes, the Forest WWII is an excellent blade. I was amazed the first time I used one. It even made super cuts on my old (now gone) late '70s vintage Craftsman table saw. There are many here that use them.

[Bob Moyer]

Bob, first of all welcome to your new hobby. It sounds like your visit to WoodCraft was like "a kid in a candy store." Enjoy.

Please do not listen to those who tell you not to use a blade guard or splitter. It isn't safe! I'm not sure if it's a "mocho" thing to do or what, but it isn't the "best" thing to do. If you set up your fence accurately you won't have to "see the cut." It's true that if you're using a thin kerf blade that most splitters won't work because they are wider than the blade. That's one reason I use a standard kerf blade.

Yes, the Forest WWII is an excellent blade. I was amazed the first time I used one. It even made super cuts on my old (now gone) late '70s vintage Craftsman table saw. There are many here that use them.

Don, why was he pushing the thin vs regular, is there that much of a difference in cut? The finish was amazing, also, where am I confused as to 40 vs 60 vs 80 as to finish.

[James Phillips]

Don, why was he pushing the thin vs regular, is there that much of a difference in cut? The finish was amazing, also, where am I confused as to 40 vs 60 vs 80 as to finish.

Thin kerf blades are targetted at under powered saws (1.5 hp and down) if you have a 3 or 5 HP saw get a full kerf. The 40 tooth is an all purpose blade. If youwnat dedicated rip and cross cut blades get a 30 tooth for rip cuts and a 60 or 80 for crosscut.

AND ALWAYS USE A SPLITTER. This guys should have used one or said that is was only removed for the demo and stressed the safety factor. Kickback can cause real problems.

[scott spencer]

Hi Bob - The splitter is arguably the most important of the safety features on the saw....a guard is valuable too, but the splitter can prevenet many of the sitations that lead to accidents...namely kickback. Not sure why he would say that you don't need one. Certainly the blade will cut without a splitter but it's certainly something that most of us use...even many of those who don't use the guard use a splitter.

He likely recommended the TK based on what saw it's recommended for. Forrest suggests the TK for < 3hp saws. With this caliber of blade, there's not a noticeable difference in cut quality. There is however a noticeable increase in the feedrate and reduced strain on the motor with the TK. On lesser blades, the thin kerf can be a liability if it deflects and vibrates, but is not a common occurrence with highend blades.

If all else is equal, a lower tooth count equates to a faster, albeit rougher cut. Higher tooth count typically gives a smoother but slower cut, which can occasionally lead to increased burning, so some middle ground is often desirable. A blade like the 30T or 40T WWII is a compromise between the speed of a bulk 24T ripper and the clean cut of an 80T dedicated crosscut blade. It offers alot of versatility, and will typically do a very good job on a variety of cuts, which allows you to use only one blade instead of switching between a dedicated ripper and dedicated crosscut blade. There are valid arguments on each side of the debate about whether to use one all purpose blade (like a WWII) or switch between dedicated blades like a 24T ripper and something like the Forrest Duraline or Chopmaster, which ultimately do a better job of their respective tasks, but require more effort and expense. Many who use a good general purpose blade feel that a blade like the WWII does a suitable job of most tasks without changing blades....strictly a matter of preference.

[Bob Moyer]

Hi Bob - The splitter is arguably the most important of the safety features on the saw....a guard is valuable too, but the splitter can prevenet many of the sitations that lead to accidents...namely kickback. Not sure why he would say that you don't need one. Certainly the blade will cut without a splitter but it's certainly something that most of us use...even many of those who don't use the guard use a splitter.

He likely recommended the TK based on what saw it's recommended for. Forrest suggests the TK for < 3hp saws. With this caliber of blade, there's not a noticeable difference in cut quality. There is however a noticeable increase in the feedrate and reduced strain on the motor with the TK. On lesser blades, the thin kerf can be a liability if it deflects and vibrates, but is not a common occurrence with highend blades.


If all else is equal, a lower tooth count equates to a faster, albeit rougher cut. Higher tooth count typically gives a smoother but slower cut, which can occasionally lead to increased burning, so some middle ground is often desirable. A blade like the 30T or 40T WWII is a compromise between the speed of a bulk 24T ripper and the clean cut of an 80T dedicated crosscut blade. It offers alot of versatility, and will typically do a very good job on a variety of cuts, which allows you to use only one blade instead of switching between a dedicated ripper and dedicated crosscut blade. There are valid arguments on each side of the debate about whether to use one all purpose blade (like a WWII) or switch between dedicated blades like a 24T ripper and something like the Forrest Duraline or Chopmaster, which ultimately do a better job of their respective tasks, but require more effort and expense. Many who use a good general purpose blade feel that a blade like the WWII does a suitable job of most tasks without changing blades....strictly a matter of preference.

I knew the knowledgeable individuals on this forum would clarify questions I have, since I have the Bosch 4000, it appears the regular kerf would be a better fit for me.

[Scott Whiting]

I am surprised anybody in the business of selling cutting tools would recommend not using a splitter. Personally I only recommend thin kerf blades for the really underpowered saws like the direct drive bench tops. I ran a Craftsman 1.5hp contractors saw for years with full kerf blades.

The purpose of kicking the back of the fence out a few thou is to reduce the chance of binding and kicking back. But, of course, if you have your splitter in place that is not a problem. And for sheet goods you really do want the fence aligned to the blade for the cleanest cut.

[scott spencer]

I knew the knowledgeable individuals on this forum would clarify questions I have, since I have the Bosch 4000, it appears the regular kerf would be a better fit for me.

Bob - The regular kerf will certainly work with your saw, and again boils down to preference, but Forrest would suggest the thin kerf for your saw, as will I. Not sure what the HP rating is on the Bosch, but I do know that it has no more than a 15 amp motor that will run on a standard 110v circuit, so theoretically it's < 2hp.

I've had excellent results from TK's on my "1-3/4hp" saw, and can cut thicker wood with less bogging down than with the full kerf, but I'll reiterate that it's a matter of preference.

[Bob Moyer]

Bob - The regular kerf will certainly work with your saw, and again boils down to preference, but Forrest would suggest the thin kerf for your saw, as will I. Not sure what the HP rating is on the Bosch, but I do know that it has no more than a 15 amp motor that will run on a standard 110v circuit, so theoretically it's < 2hp.

I've had excellent results from TK's on my "1-3/4hp" saw, and can cut thicker wood with less bogging down than with the full kerf, but I'll reiterate that it's a matter of preference.

Scott,

Where would I purchase a splitter for the thin kerf blade?

[James Phillips]

Scott,

Where would I purchase a splitter for the thin kerf blade?

You can make one. If you make a Zero CLearance insert, you can place a wooden spitter behind the blade in the insert. Remember, it is just designed to keep teh kerf open, so it does not have to be anything fancy.

[scott spencer]

If your saw's stock splitter is full kerf, then I understand why you'd be leaning to the full kerf blade....I thought you were basing the choice on their "4.4HP" rating, which is inaccurate.

Most woodworking stores like Woodcraft, Rockler, Hartville Tool, Lee Valley, etc., have splitters available that are proprietary for a given type of saw.

Microjig makes a snap in splitter that attaches to a throat insert, and is available in two kerf widths.

[Scott Whiting]

Scott,

Where would I purchase a splitter for the thin kerf blade?

Not quite sure. Most stock ones will work with thin kerf blades. I just measured the stock on on my contractor saw and it is .074. Anything less than .090 will work as thin kerf blades are usually .105. And has been pointed out if you are making your own zero clearance insterts you can make you own splitter too.

[Howard Acheson]

I knew the knowledgeable individuals on this forum would clarify questions I have, since I have the Bosch 4000, it appears the regular kerf would be a better fit for me.

I'm confused, the Bosch 4000 is not a full sized table saw. It's a portable table saw. The motor is a 120 volt 15 amps which does not produce more than about 1.5 HP. They may claim it to be more but that is the same type of marketing claim made for 15 amp shop vacs and routers that advertize 3.5 -4.0 HP. The HP is what the marketeers label as "developed HP" or the amount of HP produced just before it burns up. Standard Constractor Saws have induction motors, not universal motors, that produce 1.5 HP. Full sized table saws have 3 HP or 5 HP induction motors.

The Bosch 4000 is a saw that should use a thin kerf blade, not the full kerf.

[glenn bradley]

Sounds like you've got some good solid answers. I can only speak from what works for me: thin kerf blades, shop made zero clearance inserts and Micro-jig's MJ Splitter for thin kerf. The splitter could just as easliy be shop made but either way - use a splitter, use a splitter, use a splitter. I like the MJ Splitter because if I don't get it just right, it has different offsets depending on the piece you use and the direction you insert it. Also its cheap at about $20 for the setup jig, drill and two splitters. Again, shop made is fine but use one.

As for the fence toe-out discussion. This seems to be personal preference. I keep mine dead on so the 'keeper' and the spoil get a clean edge. Obviously if you allow for some slop at the exit side of the blade, you don't get this every time. One is not right or wrong, just different but the person who recommends against a splitter is the extreme exception (and wrong in my opinion).

[Eddie Darby]

He (Ray Collier) recommended a thin kerf blade 40 teeth which surprised me since I thought I needed at least 60 or more for ripping hardwood flooring and my other projected projects of adirondack chairs; ripping plywood and constructing a workbech.
In a discussion with someone there, I got the impression that a splitter was not necessary and he did not have the guard in place, although I realize one could observe the cutting better without it.

The WWII blade is a combination blade, which is a nice way of saying that you don't need to change blades on your saw. If you want to do a lot of ripping cuts, then get a blade that is dedicated for ripping only. It will have fewer teeth than 40 , not more. Dedicated cross-cut blades have a higher tooth count, as do dedicated plywood blades.

If you are going to use 1 blade for everything, then getting a TK blade for ripping makes things a little less demanding on the saw. You don't save money with the TK blade because they recommend that you use a blade stiffener with the TK blade.

The splitters job is to prevent the wood from warping behind the cut and touching the backside of the blade. There is no way that this can be prevented by the blade itself, and is totally unpredictable. Anything that touches the back-side of the blade will be projected to the front-side at close to 200 MPH which might win you the pole at Daytona Speedway.

I've been to lots of woodworking shows and the folks like to remove everything from the saws for visual demonstrating purposes, but in doing so they are setting a very very bad example. You can tell the new people to woodworking because they stand in the line of fire during these demos.

I still can see the look of shock n' terror on Scott Philips face when a Delta rep did an extremely dangerous cut on a table saw with no guards or splitter just to prove a point about some new blade.

You know those commercials you see with cars doing dangerous stunts, and then you see a warning not to try this, that the drivers in the commercial are professional, well at these tool demos, you should have a warning that says the salesmen are not professional woodworkers!

I've also seen at shows router bits changed without unplugging the router. When I pointed out the risk, the person looked at me like I was from Mars. Probably not a problem most of the time, but it is the reward of good safety habits when over a long time period you can say all your body parts still work.

The British have a saying, "Belt n' Braces". If you follow that and use a "splitter n' guard" approach, then you won't regret it, and as an added bonus, you will run less risk of being caught in public with your pants down. :D

[Bruce Benjamin]

A 15 amp motor is about 1.75 hp. I've been using my TS with a 15 amp motor for a lot of wood and I've never used anything other than a full kerf blade. Yours will be fine with that regardless of what some others have said. I have a General International contractor saw and the stock guard and splitter work very well for me. The stock splitter would allow me to use a thin kerf blade if I wanted to.

Bruce

[Brian Kent]

I also witnessed the Forest demonstrater with no splitter or guard. I asked why and the answer by an assistant was that he has been using the same saw doing the same demo for 17 years - something like that.

I bought the thin kerf blade with stabilizer for by little Ryobi that cost less han the blade. I experienced three kickbacks - one that i was surprised did not cause internal bleeding, the second that I was surprised did not break my finger, and the third that missed me and broke my impprovised wooden splitter and bent the aluminum fence. The splitter that came with the saw was so bad it would bend out of alignment and stopped the cut half the time. That was when I decided to trash the saw, get a better saw, then always use zero-clearance plate and splitter.

With or without the new saw, I will never go without the zero-clearance plate or a splitter (stock or pop-in) again.

As for the blade itself, I could cut 8/4 maple with the little Ryobi, as long as I let the motor cool down every 20 feet or so.

[Ken Shoemaker]

Bob,
I am a guy with VERY limited woodworking experience, maybe 1 year at a leisurly pace at best. In other words, I don't have the Woodworker, but I have had two kickbacks on my Delta Industrial Contractors Saw. So I know of what I speak. USE THE SPITTER, GUARDS, SUIT OF ARMOR, and CAST IRON JOCK, and above all, dont stand in the line of fire....!!!!
Trust me on this, the speed at which the work will exit the saw is one of the most violent things I've ever seen.

Of course, I'm trying to be funny. I think many would agree, just use your head, your guards, stay focused, and you'll have fun.

Just be safe!!!! Ken

[Bob Moyer]

Again, I thank all of you who responded. Although there are those who favor both the thin kerf and the standard, it is obvious there are areas where there is 100% agreement; i.e splitter.

[David Weaver]

If you don't use a splitter with a thin-kerf WWII with 40 teeth, you can still get nasty kickback - trust me. It's a mechanical issue with technique (and sometimes physical properties of the wood pinching toward the blade during a cut at it relieves stress from itself) that causes kickback, though some blades could be designed to make it a little easier, I don't think you'll find a blade with teeth that can't cause kickback.

To see how it happens, get a piece of styrofoam, push it into the cut and then purposely turn the leading edge away from the fence. Don't hold it tightly - you don't want your hands being pulled toward the blade.

Anyway, the TKII is as good as anything if you're only going to have one blade. That's all I have, and I have a mediocre delta hybrid, and it cuts like a champ, even ripping hardwoods.

As you move along, if you don't like the stock splitters on saws, get yourself an MJ splitter (look it up on google), and possibly something else that pulls the wood toward the fence, if for not just for safety, also to help you have nicer results. I use the grip-tite system, but there are several aides that act like a second set of hands for you, keeping the piece pushed toward the fence and lessening the chance of kickback.

Trust me, if you go without a splitter and you use a saw with power, you'll get a vivid memory of kickback. Mine was of solid cherry on a 5 hp powermatic 66 with the WWII blade - no guard. That was a friends saw.

Mine will always have some sort of splitter for rip cuts after that. I never saw it happen, and was lucky it came straight back and hit me in the belt line. Lucky that it didn't stick in me, and that it didn't hit me in the face, and that I was too lazy or whatever else to hold tight to the piece, or I may have lost fingers.

[Tom Walz]

IMHO - Thin kerf technology is best used where the value of the material being cut is high. In saw mills the cost of logs is up to 80% of the cost of the finished lumber and 0.001” can be worth $50,000 per year so they run a kerf down to 0.060”. When cutting window blind slats, they will run a kerf down to 0.050”. These are typically mechanically guided applications.

As has been pointed out, thin kerf blades are more susceptible to distortion from uneven feeding.

Forrest does an excellent job but they way I interpret their blades they are designed to slowly make very smooth cuts.

Forrest typically has a very small side clearance between the carbide and the steel and, as far as I know, they are the only company that deliberately grinds back the steel behind the carbide. This gives a very smooth cut however there is a great deal of contact between the steel and the material being cut so the steel heats up rather rapidly from friction.

The typical Forrest user is seen as someone who makes a cut or two and then stops and examines the cuts and this pause allows the saw to cool.

Forrest uses a very good C-4 carbide however a more common solution in industry is to use an advanced material tip that has a higher lubricity (lower friction with the material being cut) and grind it so that there is much less contact with the material.

What is seen as a problem with an underpowered saw in terms of a manual feed operation is seen as dollars spent on electricity in commercial operations.

Good saw blades are tensioned so they stay flat. A thinner piece of steel will lose tension more rapidly than a thicker piece.

Mostly, I guess, saw blades scare me and I want to see people use the beefiest tool the can.

tom