computer guys!!!

[Sean Hughes]

I know there is a wealth of knowledge on this board and that many of you are certified computer techies(sp?)!!! What should I be looking for in a new computer. It's a very broad based question I know. We do mostly internet and office work. Some things with photoshop. Is Dell a good move, or one of the brands from Circuit City and such???? It's open ended, but I'm a gatherer of knowledge before I buy.

Thanks for the help!!!!

[Jim Becker]

Dell or Apple would be my choice. There is little incentive to "build" anymore, IMHO, although I know others who would disagree with that.

Regardless, lots of memory (2gb min these days), lots of storage for all those pictures, decent video specs so PhotoShop will not run like a slug, etc. More than a few USB 2.0 ports and a 1394 port for connection of a video camera or other similar high-speed device. DVI (digital) connection to your LCD monitor is also something I recommend...noticeably better than analog to my eyes.

[Mark Engel]

I would also add at least one DVD burner to offload some of those pictures and videos. You can get a dual layer DVD-RW for a very reasonable price.

Other pre-built brands to consider are HP and possibly Gateway.

[Chuck Wintle]

Dell make some good machines and for your needs you don't need anything super or fancy. I like to build my own machines using Intel CPU's and then keep them up to date by adding components and hard drive capacity.
A custom made machine may cost a little more but you get exactly what you want.
Circuit city handle Compaq(HP) and Gateway. These will all do what you ask of them. I think you can still get XP if you don't like or want Vista. This may be easier on an custom machine from a local computer shop.
You could also build your own. Many good online computer places to order parts, newegg.com to name one.

[Brad Schmid]

Adding to what's already been mentioned:

7200 rpm hard drive(s)
dual core proc

It may sound like alot, but I just bought another machine (HP - currently running Vista Ultimate) a few months ago that meets all mentioned specs for $450

[Greg Peterson]

My next home computer will be an Apple. I am a WinTel guy and my current home system is a home built Win2K machine that is going on 8 years old. It still does pretty much what I need it to do, but there are things I don't do simply because its a pain.

I got a chance to demo an I Mac the other day. Wow! I was never a big fan of Apple, but after giving the I Mac a fair shake I have to say that this is a very serious machine and produces the kind of computing experience people expect but all to often don't get with a WinTel machine.

[Mark Engel]

Not trying to start a big debate here, but there is something I have to say to Mr. Peterson.

I have seen this same argument many times. Folks that have used WinTel systems for years and years check out an Apple system and like it. But if you think back, didn't you like the WinTel system when you first looked at it?

You can probably get almost any system out there, whether it be Wintel, Apple OS-X, Linux, Unix, whatever, and be happy with it and get it to do what you need it to do. But, as with almost all things (sorry honey :) ), after a while you learn where all the flaws are. Is it really fair to compare what you have been using for a number of years, and learned the shortcomings of, with something that you have only had a brief introduction to?

I have been in the software business for over 25 years, and I can tell you that there are as many Apple folks, by percentage, as there are Windows folks that want to switch. The grass is always greener.

My feeling is that you should determine what is you want to do with your computer. Find software that will accomplish that task and only then figure out what hardware you need to run the software.

Sorry. I'll climb down from my soapbox now.

[Tim Morton]

I always suggest Apple, and until now have had very little PC experience...but after working at this new job with nothing but PC's...I can honestly say more than ever

BUY AN APPLE!!!!!!!:cool:

[Curt Harms]

If You custom order a box, You can get XP, usually for $30 or so extra. I've been shopping notebooks and if You pick something up in a chain store, it's gonna have Vista on it. I really prefer the "eraser head" pointing devices to the touch pad and the whole industry except for Lenovo uses touch pads. I think it's possible to get certain models in other brands with the "eraser head" pointers, I know Toshiba Tecras have it and I think HP & Dell, but they're usually higher end machines and my needs are pretty low end. I prefer components that have been around for a while and have stable software support.

Re operating systems, I haven't heard many complaints about Vista so far but in view of the fact that XP wasn't widely accepted until SP2 and Vista driver support is somewhat spotty so far, XP or dual boot seems like a wise way to go. In the Thinkpad line, I found that even within a model e.g. R61 there are a number of types. Some support XP and 2000, some don't. It this is an issue, look at the manufacturer's tech support site and determine which models support the operating system you prefer.

HTH

Curt

Dell make some good machines and for your needs you don't need anything super or fancy. I like to build my own machines using Intel CPU's and then keep them up to date by adding components and hard drive capacity.
A custom made machine may cost a little more but you get exactly what you want.
Circuit city handle Compaq(HP) and Gateway. These will all do what you ask of them. I think you can still get XP if you don't like or want Vista. This may be easier on an custom machine from a local computer shop.
You could also build your own. Many good online computer places to order parts, newegg.com to name one.

[Raymond Fries]

At my day job I do technical support and our company standard is Dell. I have learned that Dell offers refurbished computers at a significant discount. Here is the link:

http://www.dell.com/content/default.aspx?c=us&cs=22&l=en&s=dfh

A refurbished comupter is one of the following:

It was shipped to a customer and returned unopened for whatever reason.
It was returned within 30 days for some problem and was repaired and tested.

Refurbished computers and monitors carry the same warranty as new ones.

I bought one sometime back and never had a problem with it; there was not even a scratch on it. It was a $2,700 computer and I got it for $1,400. Gotta love that!

BTW - If you do shop online for one, add it to your cart to save it in case you decide to buy it. I have not done that and my first choice was gone when I went back.

[Jim Becker]

II really prefer the "eraser head" pointing devices to the touch pad and the whole industry except for Lenovo uses touch pads. I think it's possible to get certain models in other brands with the "eraser head" pointers, I know Toshiba Tecras have it and I think HP & Dell, but they're usually higher end machines and my needs are pretty low end.

OT from the original intention of the thread, but I'm in that school, too. When my Thinkpad gets retired in oh, about two and a half weeks after 3 1/2 years of service, it's being replaced by a Dell Latitude D630...which still has the "eraser-head" pointing device. I'm a right mouse button user and touch pads just don't lend themselves to my needs or comforts. I believe that HP has one or two models that still sport it. Some Toshibas may, too, but I haven't looked at a Toshiba notebook in years.

----

Back on topic....

Oh, in addition to the Dell refurbs that Raymond just mentioned, entering the Dell site via ebates.com can get you additional savings. Some employers also have nice purchasing programs with them. (mine does and also for Apple)

[Mark Engel]

I kind of like all of the additional functionality that comes along with the touchpad. I got used to the scroll regions and scroll locks, taps and double taps, etc. Navigating long web pages got a little easier, once I got the techniques figured out.

But, of course, LOML has pretty much taken over my Acer notebook. So it's back to the mouse for me.

[Greg Peterson]

I've been using PC's since Windows 3.1 (even had a Commodore 64 before that). The WinTel platform has tremendous utility, and over the years the OS has matured substantially. XP Pro works great, IMO.

The reason I am jazzed about Apple is that the difference I noticed between Apple and WinTel is the thorough and seamless integration of hardware and software in Apple. The I Mac offers an elegant design, both physically and software.

I think the average home user would find greater utility with less effort in a I Mac than they would in a WinTel. Just my opinion. But I now understand why the pro's use Mac's.

As for shortcomings, WinTel is certainly not alone in that corner. Any machine is going to present a collection of compromises and undocumented 'features'. Apple know their market and designs their software/hardware to fill the primary needs of their market. WinTel has a broader base to support and cater to, therefor more bells, whistles and features have to be included.

Both designs have their merits. But for the casual home user, I think an Apple provides the most pleasant experience. When was the last time you saw someone passionate about a WinTel box? Apple users are passionate about their Mac's, and for good reason. It works for them.

[Bryan Rocker]

I have been into computers since 1987. I have built most of my own computers. The general rule of thumb I have gone by is buy the fastest computer you can afford with the most memory. You can always upgrade hard drives, CD/DVD drives later. If I were to buy a computer I would have at least 2 gig of ram, XP Pro. I would not do Vista yet. Vista still has issues out there. I just got back from a trip to Baltimore. I took my work laptop and my old 2001 PIII 900 Dell Inspirion 8000 laptop. Other than being slow as could be, my Dell laptop still did what it needed. If you do not intend to tinker with it I would go with either Dell or Gateway. Both offer very good customer support and good warranties. In my work center we have a number of gateways which are 4 years old still working just fine as well. Yes they are tired but hey they work.......

Bryan

[Jim Becker]

Note that Gateway is no longer going to be an independent company. The Acer group is purchasing them.

[Randal Stevenson]

Dell or Apple would be my choice. There is little incentive to "build" anymore, IMHO, although I know others who would disagree with that.

Regardless, lots of memory (2gb min these days), lots of storage for all those pictures, decent video specs so PhotoShop will not run like a slug, etc. More than a few USB 2.0 ports and a 1394 port for connection of a video camera or other similar high-speed device. DVI (digital) connection to your LCD monitor is also something I recommend...noticeably better than analog to my eyes.


For quite a while now, the only real incentive to build is you know the make, model, and alleged quality of your components, when you do.
Computers have become so inexpensive now that I see people replacing them instead of cleaning, and reformat/reinstalling. (Can you tell I deal with too many computer illiterates).
Apples work better with the digital video's and are generally used more in graphics environments, and now that they are wintell machines, you can make them multiboot and get both environments. However you do pay a premium.
Do you already have photoshop? On what platform? Know anyone running it on Vista? Have you checked with them for issues (like compatiblity, drivers, and how much memory they need). Is your old machine still functional enough, that you can do a clean install of whatever os, and have either a backup, or use it for general purpose (email, office) and leave the other photoshop/gimp, etc? What about network and burners, could your old machine be converted to a backup machine (aka burning cd's, dvd's)?

I prefer to look at a machines specs, and upgrade capabilities before purchasing (what slots are internally open, power supply, etc), then brands. (as they all have duds) This is why I still build my own (which generally costs more, but I get a longer lifespan. As I still have a functioning P1 233) and why I have gone to Linux (no specific software needs, except for a couple games on one Windows machine).

Sorry to blather, but like I've told others, ask yourself some hard questions PREpurchase. You'll be happy you did.

[Jim Becker]

You bring up some good points, Randal. Any purchase decision needs to be directed by need (and, of course, desire for new capabilities sometimes) so that the money is going to things you really should have in the end.

I do a bit of graphics work, but have been fine on WinTel. I also have a somewhat substantial application investment. Until the new Intel Macs arrived, it really wasn't practical to even consider switching the next time around because of stupid licensing restrictions on some programs that disallowed transfer between platforms even when the CDROM had both versions on-board. Given that the current Macs can run dual OS through several different techniques, my "issue" is solved. So now I have a choice.

But the Dells I've owned have also been good to me so I'll have to decide if I really one one machine different in the house from all the others. That will not be soon, however...there are a lot of things for our addition that will take priority over any new computer purchase and this three-year old Dell is running strong with 3ghz P4, 2gb ram, updated video, etc., although it really does need a complete "flush" at present...

[Randal Stevenson]

You bring up some good points, Randal. Any purchase decision needs to be directed by need (and, of course, desire for new capabilities sometimes) so that the money is going to things you really should have in the end.

I do a bit of graphics work, but have been fine on WinTel. I also have a somewhat substantial application investment. Until the new Intel Macs arrived, it really wasn't practical to even consider switching the next time around because of stupid licensing restrictions on some programs that disallowed transfer between platforms even when the CDROM had both versions on-board. Given that the current Macs can run dual OS through several different techniques, my "issue" is solved. So now I have a choice.

But the Dells I've owned have also been good to me so I'll have to decide if I really one one machine different in the house from all the others. That will not be soon, however...there are a lot of things for our addition that will take priority over any new computer purchase and this three-year old Dell is running strong with 3ghz P4, 2gb ram, updated video, etc., although it really does need a complete "flush" at present...

Your software (current platform) is why I brought that up. I've heard enough Vista issues, that both compatiblity, and having a legacy machine at this point is cheap insurance. Not to mention the benefits of having a second machine for net access when you hose your other.
I've seen good and bad with Dells, from multiple prospectives. Same with others (grew up playing with the old software punch cards, first pc Timex Sinclair 1000).
Your old machine, specwise, is still a current machine, as not much really takes enough advantadge yet of the dual cores, or 64 bit computing (photoshop is an exceptiion). I'm waiting for the software to catch up before I get anything new (as DirectX 10.1 isn't even supposed to be compatable with current generation top of the line video cards).

One more benefit to multiple machines, since so many people just set up one user and universal settings; you can give the second pc to the kids, lock down it's internet access, and use a seperate password on your machines. They can't hose yours goofing around, or through some of the horrific game installs I remember (Deer hunter series anyone).

[Greg Peterson]

Randall - your points are right on the money. I have people that don't have a computer and/or have no experience with a computer ask me what they should get.

My response always sets them back on their heels and usually creates a lot of confusion for them. I ask them "What do you need a computer for?". I've never had anyone define a clear NEED for a computer such as digital photography, online banking/bill paying/spreadsheet or database demands. Instead, they offer up an interest in checking out The Internets!

I've been telling these folks to not buy a computer because they can't afford my tech support charges (tongue firmly planted in cheek of course). However, after finally getting a hands on demo with the latest Apple offering, the I Mac, I am convinced that Apple is the most mature and robust product offering for the average newbie.

IMO, Apple is in the best position to leverage the ever expanding digital convergence. And as grandparents and even great grandparents start acquiring digital cameras and MP3 players, I'll wager dollars to donuts that the golden generation would have a more positive experience with an I Mac than they would with an XP machine.

In my own experiences, I have one set of great grandparents that keep having problems with their XP Home machine. And my own parents have ongoing updates/upgrades and compatibility issues with their XP Home machines. These folks just want to turn on the machine, not have a rats nest of cords and cables, and get on The Internets. IMO, the I Mac is the most elegant solution to these persons request.

MS has made huge inroads on the Out-of-Box experience. But for the average user that just expects the box to perform with the same regularity, dependability and ease of operation as their car, furnace or washing machine, Apple is the machine I recommend.

[Jim Becker]

(grew up playing with the old software punch cards, first pc Timex Sinclair 1000).

Punch cards at Penn State in 1978 and the first "PC" I used was a Commodore PET...the first one with the "chicklet" keyboard. :eek: :o :p :) :D 7 Years with Tandy/Radio Shack brought me through that whole evolution from "then" to the PC of today, including building for clients, both PC and Unix/Xenix based.

[Pat Germain]

It used to be what set apart the name brand PC's was customer support and Dell often came out on top in that area. Since Dell has offshored their home customer support to Bangalore, this is no longer the case. The futility and frustration of Dell customer support, as well almost every other computer support service, is both proverbial and laughable. Mac customer support gets good reviews, but going with a Mac is a personal preference decision.

Most people I know who bought a PC from a retail store (Best Buy, Circuit Citty, Staples, etc) were very disappointed. It seems their objective is to sell a low cost, low end machine with lots of expensive support upgrages. YMMV.

I would say building a PC yourself should be more for hobby reasons than anything else. There are so many issues with hardware compatibilities and licenses, it can be very frustrating for someone not really into all that.

I have purchased two Dell PCs over the past few years and was very satisfied (I rarely require customer support). With Dell, I find it's best, as well as less-expensive, to buy one of their higher-end machines which comes standard with high-end components rather than trying to customize a lower end machine with upgrades. Dell constantly runs promotions with free RAM, free monitor upgrades, free printers, etc. The free printer is likely the least valuable. They're just trying to sell you ink.

Definately opt for the biggest flat-panel monitor you can afford. You'll thank yourself later. :)

[David Epperson]

In my own experiences, I have one set of great grandparents that keep having problems with their XP Home machine. And my own parents have ongoing updates/upgrades and compatibility issues with their XP Home machines. These folks just want to turn on the machine, not have a rats nest of cords and cables, and get on The Internets. IMO, the I Mac is the most elegant solution to these persons request.

MS has made huge inroads on the Out-of-Box experience. But for the average user that just expects the box to perform with the same regularity, dependability and ease of operation as their car, furnace or washing machine, Apple is the machine I recommend.
I know some of what you might be talking about I think. I had a system built - XP Pro and Panda firewall/antivirus. Apparently NOT a good combo. One of the "automatic" updates from MS seemed to have conflicted with Panda and resulted in my hard drive being rendered non bootable and parts of that drive are even now "access denied". I've still not completely recovered from that. (Looking for a good inexpensive file recovery program - not an undeleter).
What is a better firewall (that is not all intrusive like Norton or Symantek?) but still works with XP Pro?

[Jim Becker]

David...ZoneAlarm Pro...or the free version if you prefer. AVG is a good anti-virus, too...both the free and paid versions. I use both with zero issues on XP. (XP Pro, however)

[Sean Hughes]

thank you all for your input. I really like to gather opinions and information before I make a decent size purchase. Thanks for all the help and I'll let you know when I make a decision. On a side note, it seems that the desktops from CC and others have a few more things in them than say a Dell for around the same cost. Is this based on name or the quality of parts?

[Chuck Wintle]

thank you all for your input. I really like to gather opinions and information before I make a decent size purchase. Thanks for all the help and I'll let you know when I make a decision. On a side note, it seems that the desktops from CC and others have a few more things in them than say a Dell for around the same cost. Is this based on name or the quality of parts?

It all comes down to price and features. Dell because of huge volume can offer more features for less price than others can. If you fine and inexpensive computer you really have to check the quality of it. Often they skimp on the quality and rating of the power supply which can then be prone to failure. Motherboards have no expansion slots for extra memory or add-in cards.

That is one reason I like to build my own. :)

[Art Mulder]

I have been in the software business for over 25 years, and I can tell you that there are as many Apple folks, by percentage, as there are Windows folks that want to switch. The grass is always greener.

Well, Mark, my experience is pretty much the opposite of yours. I've been in IT support for 20 years. The last 10 have been in a Grad School environment, where at least 30% of the computers are mac. I have seen plenty of grad students come in and complain, initially, because their advisor "forced" them to work on a Mac. Not one has left with the same attitude. Plenty of them have gone out and spent their own money to buy themselves a mac for at home, or for when they graduated.

I find that mac users are more likely look after their own machines. The Windows users are far more likely to say "please come and install XYZ on my machine". The Mac users say "let me borrow the CD and I'll do it." (we do have a pretty computer literate clientele)


OT from the original intention of the thread, but I'm in that school, too. When my Thinkpad gets retired in oh, about two and a half weeks after 3 1/2 years of service, it's being replaced by a Dell Latitude D630...which still has the "eraser-head" pointing device.

Hold on there, I say hold on there! ;) You said you were going to buy a Mac as your next system! Those are touchpad laptops! (of course, a bluetooth mouse is not that expensive to add on.)

I know, I know, this is your work box. Just yanking yerr USB cable...

[Jim Becker]

Hold on there, I say hold on there! ;) You said you were going to buy a Mac as your next system! Those are touchpad laptops! (of course, a bluetooth mouse is not that expensive to add on.)

If/when I buy a Mac it will be a non-notebook!

Did you ever try to balance a notebook AND a rodent on a tray table on a plane? I'll take my pointing stick thingie any day over that scenaro! I did recently break down and get a wireless clicker/pointer for presentation work at least...

But yes, the notebook in question is a work machine. We are doing a mass-refresh of several thousand machines during our annual fiscal year kickoff meeting...which means I need to cart several presentations that I'm doing around on a couple USB memory devices 'cause I have no idea when over the several day period they are going to snatch my ThinkPad and magically turn it into a Dell...:rolleyes: I've been busy backing up everything twice 'cause if I don't, I know there will be some kind of screwup due to our friend Murphy. :o

[Randal Stevenson]

David...ZoneAlarm Pro...or the free version if you prefer. AVG is a good anti-virus, too...both the free and paid versions. I use both with zero issues on XP. (XP Pro, however)


I also use zone alarm (the free one), and AVG. I also use, I believe it's trendline, online antivirus. The ONE time I had a virus, it infected the antivirus, and trendline caught it.

[Randal Stevenson]

If/when I buy a Mac it will be a non-notebook!

Did you ever try to balance a notebook AND a rodent on a tray table on a plane? I'll take my pointing stick thingie any day over that scenaro! I did recently break down and get a wireless clicker/pointer for presentation work at least...



I like the idea of a Mac for my portable machine (still really don't have the need), because of the easily triple boot. (more if I want to go read up on Grub and 100 plus OS installs).

Jim, you can KEEP those erasers. I know my father and several other old IBM'ers like them, but give me the touchpad, or a trackball anyday over that blip in the middle of my keyboard. If they would have made it as a removable, longer joystick so it can be used when needed....

That is the benefit though of multiple designs and removable mice. You can even go touchpad (if you got the dough).

[Jim Becker]

Yea, we all are very different in how we work...I'm not a trackball fan, but have gotten really friendly with the scroll wheel on my rodents. And the eraser pointer has a similar function with the middle button. Professor Dr SWMBO, on the other hand, is a track-ball fan, largely because of a wrist problem. It's the most comfortable for her.

[Dan Mages]

Another aspect you should consider is laptop vs desktop. Most laptops available for about 750-1000 are more than powerful enough to handle photoshop work, assuming you max out the ram on the computer. Laptops give you the flexibility of using it anywhere in the house or taking it on trips.

I have an irrational preference towards AMD processors, I guess I like to support the little guy. You will find them in most Dell Inspiron systems. I highly suggest getting a Turion chip with 1meg of L2 cache for better system performance. As others have said, a faster hard drive is just as important as the size of the drive. Dont worry about sacrificing drive space for disk speed, if costs are a concern. I recommend going with the Bluetooth option, if it is not standard. It makes it easier to send pictures, contacts, etc... from your cell phone to your computer. I also gives you flexibility with wireless mice and keyboards. Larger batteries do add weight, but are worth the extra costs.

I have had a bad experience with my current HP laptop, especially with their tech support group. Every time I call, they seem to beleive that my computer is no longer supported by the extended warranty and therefore are not obligated to help me. My DVD drive no longer reads or writesDVDs and they send it back unrepaired to to a dirty screen and dirt in the computer, which they consider customer induced damage and therefore voided the extended warranty I purchased. Given their desire to NOT help me, I have no interest in buying from them again or reccomending them to others.

Best of luck!!

[Greg Narozniak]

Well being in IT for over 10 years I have built A LOT of PCs. Actually just upgraded my Gaming PC at home, It was actually fun.

When My Inlaws needed a new PC I orginally told them to get a Dell, I have several and use them at work and they have been really good overall. I do believe that the Business line of machines from Dell and HP are made much better and have less problems IMHO. The Latitudes and Optiplex from Dell and the Vectra series from HP. They are built to be used 8+ hours a day 5 days a week, week in and week out. The downfall is that a lot of the Dells and HPs have specfic parts that only work in those PCs (Fans, Power Supplies, etc) so repair or replace can be difficult

The issue that came up with my Inlaws was the Customer Service at Dell is not what it used to be and my Inlaws only speak English. So what they did was they went to a local computer guy (Easy to find in the Yellow Pages) and bought a very nice PC with support for the same price the Dell was going to be. If something happens they can bring the PC back and they fix it right up. They live in FL so It was easier for them to go that route then to have me build one.

As the others have said Max out the RAM and get lots of HD space. A DVD burner makes backing up much easier and they are less than $40 now a days.
An External HD makes backing up easy as well and it can be shared with the whole house. I have one and keep music back ups, Ghost Images of all my machines (Update them every so often) and back up other Important Files.

As for the Apple thing, Don't get me started..... :)