Epilog - A little out of Price Range

[Jared Greenberg]

Went to demo the Epilog yesterday (40 Watt Helix). It was a pretty neat machine and looked like it was very easy to use. He opened the front of it, attached a couple of magnets to bypass the safety. Did a great job and the salesman was very knowlegable about the product, and even showed us how to color fill (It was very easy).

I had started a thread a few weeks ago about picking out a laser to engrave the barrels of baseball bats, and it definately did the job and was exactly what I was looking for.

The only problem is that as of right now this is the only application that we are going to be we are having a hard time justifying the cost. We toiled around with the idea of getting extra business for the machine to basically pay for it each month, but still want to focus on building the main part of the business and don't really want to get into anything at this point.

Is there anything out there that could do about the same thing, but cost half as much? The Epilog was about 20K CDN. I know there are some Chinese ones out there. Any suggestions. We would most likely purchase one if the price was right as it definatley does add something to our product.

[Pete Simmons]

An Epilog Mini-18 35 watt should do bats just fine.

Not 50% but maybe about 65% of your mentioned costs

[Craig Hogarth]

Prices are negotiable. Start shopping around and you'll get a great deal.

[Jared Greenberg]

Epilog Mini 35 watt is listed at 15.2K (28x12x6 engraving area). 45 Watt same size is 17.7K.

The 40 Watt took about 2:20 to do one bat.

[Nancy Laird]

Jared, call a ULS rep and see what he can do for you. Unless you're willing to be a guinea pig, I'd strongly recommend against getting a Chinese laser - they are delivered with a spare tube (not a great recommendation for their confidence in the tubes they are using), and the rumor is that the Chinese laser tubes are going out at an alarming rate.

Just my .02.

Nancy (99 days)

[Joe Pelonio]

Jared, call a ULS rep and see what he can do for you. Unless you're willing to be a guinea pig, I'd strongly recommend against getting a Chinese laser - they are delivered with a spare tube (not a great recommendation for their confidence in the tubes they are using), and the rumor is that the Chinese laser tubes are going out at an alarming rate.

Just my .02.

Nancy (99 days)
True, but on the other hand you can buy a lot of $300 tubes for the savings of 75% or more on the purchase price. I'm not pushing the Chinese lasers mind you, but I do feel like they will eventually work their way into the market as they improve based on feedback from demanding owners.

I would wait until such time as you find a local (US or Canada) supplier for them that provides support, and not try to deal with China. I'm sure that eventually there will be local suppliers for them, in fact there is one now in Oregon.

[Jared Greenberg]

I just got off the phone with a ULS rep; M360 50 Watt at 16.5K CDN at my door. He can't give the OK with operating it with the doors open and sounds like bypassing the safites is harder than on the Epilog.

Red Sail lasers has a distributor in Toronto, but can't really tell which one would suit me.
http://www.hflaser.com/le.html

This company has a US person handling its stuff
http://www.hxlaser.com/products/laser4.htm

I would really like to add this machine to our shop, but unlike most of you this would be the only appliation of the machine for the forseeable future.

[Joe Pelonio]

Red Sail lasers has a distributor in Toronto, but can't really tell which one would suit me.

Those are the two Chinese lasers that seem to be selling the most. I don't know where you are, but considering the possible cost savings it would be worth a trip to Toronto if they have a demo that you can see as you did with the Epilog, and be sure to ask about their support system, and whether they have buyers that you can contact for reference information. Then you can make a valid comparison on features, speed, and suitability to your application, and be able to balance initial cost and service/parts costs with support and reliability issues to decide.

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't know how crafty you are on how much you enjoy beating your head against the wall, but if you are even considering the Chinese lasers, please take the time to read through this forum on people who have bought them. I seem to recall one person getting one and it running great from the start with no real issues. The rest of the stories people have shared with us are full of things that would make the average person resort to violence.

One problem recently was the most well known rep wasn't returning emails or phone calls for weeks. Seems he was possibly in China on business. Can you afford to be down for a week? Two weeks? More? When you have a problem who will you can and what can you expect?

I personally can't be down for a week, two, or three. My customers wouldn't stand for it. If you can't afford the better machines with better service, team up with someone who has one and sub the jobs out until you can afford it (just a thought).

[Thinus Rabie]

I have had no problems with my Chinese laser , and had excellent service from the Company.

Obviously you have to make sure who you are dealing with.

I like Chinese lasers !!!

Just my 2 cents !

[Jared Greenberg]

I would like to get the Epilog, since I've seen it understand the basic concepts and I know that it works well for the application and the store is about 1.5 hours away.

The hardest part it seems is getting a vacuum system in place to take the air out.
I personally can't be down for a week, two, or three. My customers wouldn't stand for it. If you can't afford the better machines with better service, team up with someone who has one and sub the jobs out until you can afford it (just a thought).[/quote]

[Mike Mackenzie]

Jared,

On the universal systems it is easier to defeat the interlocks than on the Epilog.

Universal has a front door that opens without removing any panels and then it is as easy as placing a couple of magnets in a certain area.

Of course I did not say this for safety reasons.

Joe,

I do not think people are looking at this the right way. If lets say you have to change out a tube every 3 months at $300.00 per incident that figures out to be 1,200.00 per year. Now if you consider the life expectancy of the gas CO2 tubes to be any ware from 3-5 years so if you take the 1,200 x 3 = 3,600 + what ever shipping charges + what ever down time is involved over time these cheap Chinese systems will end up costing as much or more than a US system.

Also the 300 dollar tube replacement charge is just one price I have heard pricing any ware from 300-1000.00 dollars for the replacement tubes and I have also heard life expectancy any ware from 2-3 months max. I have also heard that these systems are not very good for engraving because the tubes do not pulse so consistency in the burn is not to good.

[Scott Shepherd]

Here are a couple of threads worth looking at before buying a Chinese laser.

Note the inability for some to use Corel on some posts. Also, no machines are without problems. It's just the abilitty to solve the problem or have someone solve it that means the most to me. There are so few Chinese Laser owners around this forum, you're not too far from being on your own in solving problems. However, if you have an Epilog or ULS, or any other big name, then you're in a room with 100's of people who have their machines and can (and do) normally help in a matter of minutes.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=64830 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=64830)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=64477 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=64477)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=63655 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=63655)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=64732&highlight=Chinese (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=64732&highlight=Chinese)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=54404&highlight=Chinese (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=54404&highlight=Chinese)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=61782&highlight=Chinese (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=61782&highlight=Chinese)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=60440&highlight=Chinese (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=60440&highlight=Chinese)

[Brian Robison]

Hi Jared, what's hard about the vacuum system?
My little Mini 18 wasn't very high and the front comes off. 25 watts would do the bats if you didn't need them done lightning quick. I'm guessing 3 or 4 minutes per bat tops.

[Joe Pelonio]

Jared,
Joe,
I do not think people are looking at this the right way. If lets say you have to change out a tube every 3 months at $300.00 per incident that figures out to be 1,200.00 per year. Now if you consider the life expectancy of the gas CO2 tubes to be any ware from 3-5 years so if you take the 1,200 x 3 = 3,600 + what ever shipping charges + what ever down time is involved over time these cheap Chinese systems will end up costing as much or more than a US system.

Also the 300 dollar tube replacement charge is just one price I have heard pricing any ware from 300-1000.00 dollars for the replacement tubes and I have also heard life expectancy any ware from 2-3 months max. I have also heard that these systems are not very good for engraving because the tubes do not pulse so consistency in the burn is not to good.

It's a dilemma, for sure, Mike.

I've seen Chinese lasers that would do the bats for $4,000 with a $300 tube. That particular one had a one year warranty. At $1,200 year for tubes it would take over 7 years to get to the cost of a name brand laser.

My Epilog is on the 3rd tube in 3 years, and the cost for the last one after warranty was $2,300. Tube life expectancy obviously cannot be predicted,
as you know from posts here, it can vary from a few months to many years
regardless of the laser brand. Like you I have heard that the glass tubes are less consistent in power but whether that would affect the quality of the bat marking I wouldn't know, that's something someone would have to look at closely. I have not seen one in operation, but have seen samples done on them and they looked just fine.

I'm glad I already have one and don't have to make the choice. Just wait until the Chinese cars hit the U.S. market for under $10,000. In fact I heard that some GM vehicles already have Chinese built engines, and Ford is looking into that too.

http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/chrysler/chrysler%E2%80%99s-chinese-built-car-to-cost-10000/

http://www.tigertruck.com/

[Mike Mackenzie]

One thing the Chinese are doing is making us all aware of just how much it costs to manufacture things.

Think about it if they can produce a car for 10,000 U.S. Retail what do you think the actual cost to produce it is? You know that everyone involved has to be making some sort of profit along the way.

I still believe that the Chinese products will improve and eventually cost more as the demand for them increases.

[Judith Halliday]

Why not support American made products? Is there nothing we can make in America without the chinese stealing and making? I'm trying very hard to control my soap box ranting. I understand the rationale is to save money. But at what expense?

[Kim Vellore]

The car market has become very competitive with the Japanese's low cost excellent cars. Detroit profits have dwindled, I always wonder how cars can be made so cheap and yet so reliable. If you take a car apart you will realize how many precision machined parts make up a car. More than that how many safety features have been added that saves lives. I have seen cars totally crushed but drivers walk out. One has to wait and see if the Chinese cars are really safe on American roads with high speeds and maniacs driving super big SUV's

If you compare anything between the cost of a car and laser machine either $per pound or $per complexity or $per number of parts or $per engineering even the Chinese lasers will be way over priced. I guess it is the volume and efficient streamlined manufacturing that has made it cheap.
Here is some crash tests of Chinese cars

http://youtube.com/watch?v=amFJwdg7O1E
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7vC-JPdVTCo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=W7VSHCgjbt0



Kim

[Ed Maloney]

I would like to get the Epilog, since I've seen it understand the basic concepts and I know that it works well for the application and the store is about 1.5 hours away.

The hardest part it seems is getting a vacuum system in place to take the air out.

Are you talking about the hook-up for the Chinese laser or the Epilog one? Or is it a location issue? (Sorry if this was covered already, I've been away from the forum for a little bit so I haven't kept up with the thread.)

[Mike Mackenzie]

Judith,

I am in 100% agreement with you!!:)

[Thad Nickoley]

I think it is like buying a tool from that Harbor Place, dont want to say the name outright, If you want it to last and expect it to be there when you need it buy the best. Buy American!

[Jared Greenberg]

Why not support American made products? Is there nothing we can make in America without the chinese stealing and making? I'm trying very hard to control my soap box ranting. I understand the rationale is to save money. But at what expense?

Because I'm not American, so it really doesn't occur to me to shop stateside first.

[Jared Greenberg]

Are you talking about the hook-up for the Chinese laser or the Epilog one? Or is it a location issue? (Sorry if this was covered already, I've been away from the forum for a little bit so I haven't kept up with the thread.)
No the Epilog. I'd imagine you'd have to have some sort of vacumm system leading the air to the outside. The vacuum system would probably be rather loud (for me and the neighbours) as I'm planning on using it in the basement.

How do you guys get around the noise factor and not impacting others?

[Steven Smith]

Why not support American made products? Is there nothing we can make in America without the chinese stealing and making? I'm trying very hard to control my soap box ranting. I understand the rationale is to save money. But at what expense?

Can you find any device, mechanical or electronic that is made in the U.S.? Look around your shop. There's nothing I bet. I did find some clock movements that were made here but they were back ordered for two weeks. I really wanted to buy U.S. but I need the stuff now, not in two weeks.

Another thing that gets me really mad is that the domestic distributors of this equipment try to maximize their profits by severely overcharging for components. If people choose to do a little research can find the same stuff much cheaper.

Not speaking to you Judith, but anyone looking to get into this business *has* to be able to research all costs for hard and soft goods. One has to be willing to go to the wall with them. When I was shopping for equipment one vendor told me that "my price and equipment are a good value, I'm not going to get into a bidding war (with another vendor)". Seeya Bob...
You're not going into business to be best friends with any vendor. If you are not able to tell some salesperson on the other end of the phone their price is ridiculous you should find another line of work.

If nothing else the introduction of off shore manufacturers will put a little competition into the marketplace and force these domestics to either offer superior customer service or more competitive pricing.

[Craig Hogarth]

Because I'm not American, so it really doesn't occur to me to shop stateside first.

Too funny!!

[Bill Cunningham]

No the Epilog. I'd imagine you'd have to have some sort of vacumm system leading the air to the outside. The vacuum system would probably be rather loud (for me and the neighbours) as I'm planning on using it in the basement.

How do you guys get around the noise factor and not impacting others?

You can pick up a 600-700 cfm woodshop blower/sucker? for 200.00, and venting to the outside, does not make much more noise than your average clothes dryer. If you object to the noise inside, you can put it in a insulated box, with the vents coming in from the laser and out to the wall.. Mine just sits on the floor under the laser.. Sure I can hear it, it's not objectionable (to me anyway) , and gives the shop a nice busy background sound when folks are at the front counter :D

Also:

One thing the Chinese are doing is making us all aware of just how much it costs to manufacture things.

Think about it if they can produce a car for 10,000 U.S. Retail what do you think the actual cost to produce it is? You know that everyone involved has to be making some sort of profit along the way.It does not cost much to manufacture cars in China, because the folks on the assembly line are not making $30-40$ an hour with full benefits.. I wonder how cheap Mattel has found their Chinese manufacturing lately.. There are pitfalls and benefits I suppose.. Just don't pick any paint off those ford engines and eat it :eek:

[Jared Greenberg]

You can pick up a 600-700 cfm woodshop blower/sucker? for 200.00, and venting to the outside, does not make much more noise than your average clothes dryer. If you object to the noise inside, you can put it in a insulated box, with the vents coming in from the laser and out to the wall.. Mine just sits on the floor under the laser.. Sure I can hear it, it's not objectionable (to me anyway) , and gives the shop a nice busy background sound when folks are at the front counter

Yes that would be what I am looking for something to make and control the sound inside the house and then blow it out.

Would you have a picture by chance?

[Stephen Beckham]

Jared,

Also - the other option I used was simple egg-crate matress cover ($16 ish). Cut up and stapled to the inside of a home made box made it act like the old Dot Matrix Printer boxes that silenced most of the noise.

Steve

[Ed Maloney]

Jarad - Here's a thread where I show a picture of the vent to the outside.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=52431

[Joe Pelonio]

A few more pics here.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55015 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55015&highlight=rube)

BTW my Ford Ranger has a tag in the glove box that says 80% of all parts made in US or Canada, but also says that the engine was built in Germany, the transmission in France!

[Jared Greenberg]

Thanks guys.

Joe what kind of blower is that?

That would be the exact set up I was thinking about.

[Joe Pelonio]

Mine is from Grainger, it's a Fantech FX10XL. Fairly quiet without anything special other than rubber between the mounts and wall, and more power than I need for the short vent run. I bought it originally for a 20' run. As I recall it was just over $200 at the time.

[Peck Sidara]

Jared,

On the universal systems it is easier to defeat the interlocks than on the Epilog.

Universal has a front door that opens without removing any panels and then it is as easy as placing a couple of magnets in a certain area.

Of course I did not say this for safety reasons.



The Epilog Mini 24 & Helix systems have a front door that drops down via a handle. No panels, no screws just apply 4ft/lbs torque and voila!

[Brian Robison]

Buy an Epilog, Peck needs that new BMW M5.;)

[Peck Sidara]

Buy an Epilog, Peck needs that new BMW M5.;)

I can appreciate a little Friday afternoon humor Brian. :)

[Joe Pelonio]

It's good to see you have a good sense of humor, Peck!

[Mike Hood]

Have you talked with the guys at Sign Warehouse? I bought my Explorer II from them and they beat both Epilog and ULS in price and features. Mine was just at $22K (delivered) with rotary fixture, exhaust fan, vector table and has dual pass through doors, large table, DC servos, air assist, auto focus, and many other features that the competition tout.

It's been over a year now and been a great machine and great folks to work with.

[Bill Cunningham]

Yes that would be what I am looking for something to make and control the sound inside the house and then blow it out.

Would you have a picture by chance?

I think in another post you said you were in Canada...
I got mine at Busy Bee tools..
here it is here.. 750 cfm, just take off the dust bag, and run flex metal lines in and out..

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?&NETID=2212190916071554772&NTITEM=B2179

[Jared Greenberg]

Perfect,..

Nice and small and could easily build a box around it.