Pinnacle gouge snaps!

[Jim Podsedly]

Has this ever happened to anybody?

Roughing the outside of a bowl and BAM!!!!!!!!!!

What a shocker. I did not get a scrape or anything. WHEW!!! :D

This is a very new gouge from Woodcraft. I just sent an email to the customer service at Woodcraft. We'll see what they say.

Is this typical for a pinnacle gouge?

Jim

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim,

Roughing gouges are meant for spindle work not bowls............

Check out this warning from CSUSA...

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/woodturners/Images/roughing_gouge_safety.pdf

A bowl gouge has the same diameter shaft as the tool portion going back into the handle. Spindle gouges or a roughing gouge taper down into a tang as shown in your photo and they are weaker. That is why they are not recommended for bowl work. I hope you weren't injured when it snapped!

[Jim Podsedly]

Ken,

I would understand not to use when roughing out a bowl core but the when roughing the outside of the bowl, too?

jim

[Jim Podsedly]

Jim,

Roughing gouges are meant for spindle work not bowls............

Check out this warning from CSUSA...

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/woodturners/Images/roughing_gouge_safety.pdf

A bowl gouge has the same diameter shaft as the tool portion going back into the handle. Spindle gouges or a roughing gouge taper down into a tang as shown in your photo and they are weaker. That is why they are not recommended for bowl work. I hope you weren't injured when it snapped!

I guess i will be ordering some bowl gouges!
Thanks for the link to CSUSA.

jim

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Jim, I would check with Pinnacle or Woodcraft. That steel looks defective to me. The give away is that there is no apparent stress to the wood in the handle.:)

[Ken Werner]

Jim, glad you didn't get hurt. Please be sure to post the result of your customer service inquiries.

[TYLER WOOD]

I'm like Jim, can they not be used to rough the outside of a bolw into a blank? To me it seems that was what he was stating. I would think that it's not a problem if you are roughing the outside, but never stick a roughing gouge into a bowl!!

[Chris Struttman]

This looks like a Sorby roughing gouge that did the same thing for me. I was using it to rough a small portion of log in spindle mode. Woodcraft told me that I could send it back to Sorby directly but they were not likely to do anything about it as the damage was not caused by defective material. I replaced it with a P&N roughing gouge. That thing is a beast.

[Keith Christopher]

I don't know I'd use a roughing gouge to begin on a bowl blank. Depending on the blank you go from end grain to long. This would certainly chatter. I guess it's possible but I don't know I'd recommend it. a bite into end grain could cause it to catch and the wider surface area of a roughing gouge to a smaller tang in the handle could cause this very thing.

A good bowl gouge will do the trick.

Glad you're ok, flying metal does wonder to skin, especially when sharp ! :eek:

[Brodie Brickey]

Roughing gouges aren't designed to take the stresses that a bowl gouge is. Look at how small the tang on the gouge is and compare it to any bowl gouge.

That being said, I did break a Sorby bowl gouge. I had a bad catch and the gouge was over extended. It broke in the middle of the flute.

[Bob Hallowell]

I use a p&n roughing gouge on the outside of most of my bowls and hf's but that is one stout roughing gouge

Bob

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Ok I have a solution!! forget all these high priced roughing gouges and get a set of HF tools with the roughing gouge included. All the abuse I've given mine and the only worry I've had is broken handles.:D :D

[Jim Podsedly]

Woodcraft is sending out a new gouge tomorrow.

They said it looks defective and no other questions asked.

Jim

[Jim Becker]

I'm glad they're replacing it for you, Jim. But do remember that these things are now "semi-officially" called "spindle roughing gouges" and should never be used for work that the grain of the material is across the axis of the lathe spindle--face-plate orientation...IE, most bowls. They are designed for work where the grain of the wood is parallel to the lathe spindle...IE spindles and "some" smaller hollow forms. This presents the edge of the tool such that it peels the material away which is a far less stressful operation than you get when cutting face-plate oriented material. The tang of the tool is very small...and using it on bowls is very similar to using a 1/4" shank router bit to hog out an inch of material in one pass. (snap...)

[Steve Schlumpf]

Jim - WOW! Glad to hear you are OK and also that Woodcraft is replacing the gouge for you! Please take Ken's advice and use a bowl gouge from now on. Catches happen in even the best of situations and a bowl gouge is built to handle the additional stresses. Have fun - turn safe!

[dennis kranz]

I just bought one of these. My boss wants to learn to turn. What if? Dennis

[Bernie Weishapl]

Jim glad you weren't hurt. My neighbor thought the same as you and some of the others that have posted back to you that he could rough the outside of a bowl with his roughing gouge. This thing was a heavy duty gouge. He told me he had did at least a dozen bowls with it. Just ask him what he thinks of using them now. A half in deep gash, ripped a thumb tendon which had to be reattached and 9 stitches later. After seeing that there is no way I would even entertain the thought of using a roughing gouge on anything but spindle work. Bowl gouges are just that and are for bowls inside and out.

Bob my friend using a roughing gouge on hollow forms if the grain parallel with the lathe but on a bowl no way.

[George Guadiane]

Jim, I would check with Pinnacle or Woodcraft. That steel looks defective to me. The give away is that there is no apparent stress to the wood in the handle.:)
I had the EXACT SAME THING happen with that gouge, in pretty much the same manner, first time out.
It took a few phone calls, and a little wrangling (the set was a gift from a friend, out of state), but they shipped me a replacement.
It took a while, because they were out of stock - probably a bad batch of steel, but I use the replacement roughing out the outside of almost everything, no problems.

[Bill Stevener]

I truly believe that turners, for the most part, that experience failure of there turning tools, are on the front of a very long learning curve. There are ofcourse some tools that will exhibit flaws in the material, however not many.
The best rule of thumb is, if one wishes to turn bowls, then use a bowl gouge, properly sized for the project at hand.
However, turning the outside of a bowl is no different than turning a spindle. I am not referring to a pen. The failure of the tool, as well as, many tool rests occurs when the turner fails to readjust the tool rest to a safe working distance in proximity with the work. As one removes material from the piece being worked, especially "around the base of the bowl, the tool rest will present a longer reach for the tool.
Being in a hurry, with an attitude of, I can reach that, will destroy many a tool, as well as body parts.
Take the time to readjust your tool rest, everything just seems to work better that way. :)

[Curt Fuller]

I truly believe that turners, for the most part, that experience failure of there turning tools, are on the front of a very long learning curve. There are ofcourse some tools that will exhibit flaws in the material, however not many.
The best rule of thumb is, if one wishes to turn bowls, then use a bowl gouge, properly sized for the project at hand.
However, turning the outside of a bowl is no different than turning a spindle. I am not referring to a pen. The failure of the tool, as well as, many tool rests occurs when the turner fails to readjust the tool rest to a safe working distance in proximity with the work. As one removes material from the piece being worked, especially "around the base of the bowl, the tool rest will present a longer reach for the tool.
Being in a hurry, with an attitude of, I can reach that, will destroy many a tool, as well as body parts.
Take the time to readjust your tool rest, everything just seems to work better that way. :)

I think you nailed it there Bill. Same principle is the cause of a lot of catches that send the wood flying across the room.

[Neal Addy]

I've always heard that you NEVER rough the edges off a bowl blank with a "roughing gouge". They are meant for spindle work and are not intended for the forces you get when doing larger pieces (thus the small tang).

But then again, I've seen religious wars start over whether the above is true.

Take the safe route and rough your bowl blanks with a band saw.

[Bob Vallaster]

Jim,
Glad you suffered no damage. The price of the tool is cheap tuition in the school of hard knocks.
Despite testimonials from several posters that they too use a roughing gouge on the outside of bowls and have had no problem (....yet), the roughing gouge is the wrong one for the job.
Ken provided a link to an emphatic warning from one of the premiere vendors of turning machinery and tools.
Here's a link to a similar discussion on the topic at AAW: http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=1761&highlight=roughing+gouge

Bob

[Bill Stevener]

I've always heard that you NEVER rough the edges off a bowl blank with a "roughing gouge". They are meant for spindle work and are not intended for the forces you get when doing larger pieces (thus the small tang).

But then again, I've seen religious wars start over whether the above is true.

(Take the safe route and rough your bowl blanks with a band saw.))) :eek:

May I ask: and just how do you propose to get the band saw inside the bowl :confused: ?

Just kidding, very good point -------:)

[Martin Braun]

There's more to it then failing to readjust the tool rest. Though that is an important part of it. As was mentioned before, how the tool approaches the grain is very important. With the grain oriented perpendicular to the axis of the lathe, every 180' the end grain comes by. So approaching the blank as if it were a spindle exposes the tool to forces much greater than side grain can exert. As has been discussed in the 'religous wars', whether using a bowl gouge or a spindle roughing gouge approaching the wood in this way is not a good idea. The difference is the bowl gouge is more robust and can take the forces of this approach. The better way to approach the blank is so that either tool is peeling away at the side grain. Not to mention it is a heck of a lot faster, and easier on the artisan ;-).

This is where the whole debate started off [years ago and in other forums], because some folks were of the opinion "don't blame the tool because people use it improperly", and others were of the position "don't tell new folks to use a tool, which when improperly used could cause serious physical harm". I'm of the later camp, simply because I can understand how people new to the craft might get confused. Better for them to get the basics down, and understand the role of grain orientation in a safe environment (or relatively safer environment).

[Reed Gray]

I know that I am unusual in this matter, but I use a big heavy scraper to rough out my bowls. I knew that some people used scrapers to totally turn a bowl, so I started to experiment to find out what they knew that I didn't. It led to the discovery that a scraper works wonderfully for heavy stock removal. I still can't get as clean of a finish cut with the scrapers. I do use a curved tool rest. There isn't as much of a temptation to over reach with your tools (heavy stresses on tool handle and steel), and you don't have to move it as much as you do a straight tool rest.
robo hippy

[Jim Underwood]

I am reminded of Nick Cook's article in one the Woodturners Journal recently where he speaks of this very thing. A friend of his used a spindle roughing gouge to rough out a bowl, and wound up with it lodged in his jaw. :(

I'd buy a bowl gouge, and advise others to do the same - especially beginners.

[Bob Hallowell]

Berine,
I should not of posted that i use one as I do not want to be an avocate for using one cause I do believe it is dangerous with a normal roughing gouge, But I use a p&n rough gouge that is machined from a soild piece of 1" steel and has a 1/2" tang. I would say it is stonger than me 3/8 bowl gouges. plus I keep my rest real close and always move it in. My bandsaw a 12" hitachi only cuts to a depth of 5" so it is easier for me to use my p&n gouge.

Bob

[Mike Ramsey]

Has this ever happened to anybody?

Roughing the outside of a bowl and BAM!!!!!!!!!!

What a shocker. I did not get a scrape or anything. WHEW!!! :D

This is a very new gouge from Woodcraft. I just sent an email to the customer service at Woodcraft. We'll see what they say.

Is this typical for a pinnacle gouge?

Jim

I have this same roughing gouge, one of the first I ever bought & mine
broke in the same spot as yours. I was using it in a (wonder what'll happen if I do this?)
poor leverage kinda way & the tang snapped. I
called WC support line & they of course know how these things get
broke but didn't dispute "How I broke it" & shipped me a new one.
I've since learned how & where to use this tool & 2 yrs later it is
holding up pretty good. Just a little shorter....

[Patrick Taylor]

This has been a big discussion topic in past threads, so searching will find all the reasons to NOT use a roughing gouge for the outside of bowls (including stories of tangs breaking in the handle and injuring hands). Use the bowl gouge and/or bandsaw! Stay safe...

[Glenn Hodges]

Trying to be helpful, I wrote a post about this very issue about a week ago on the Creek Forum, but I guess the ones that needed to read it didn't. I repeat, myself, "Never use a roughing gouge to rough out a bowl." Others have said the same thing, but turners will continue to break roughing gouges on bowls and expect companies to replace them for free.

[John Shuk]

That gouge just isn't made for bowl work. If it were an endgrain bowl and you were roughing the outside it would work. Face grain bowl well it could have been worse.

[George Guadiane]

Trying to be helpful, I wrote a post about this very issue about a week ago on the Creek Forum, but I guess the ones that needed to read it didn't. I repeat, myself, "Never use a roughing gouge to rough out a bowl." Others have said the same thing, but turners will continue to break roughing gouges on bowls and expect companies to replace them for free.
OK, help me out here, if I am roughing the OUTSIDE of a 10 inch diameter "spindle," it's OK, but if I am using the same tool to true up an end grain vase or bowl it's not? I don't pretend to know everything, and maybe roughing gouges are only for small spindles (how small?), but I also work close and had the same experience, where the tool snapped, no catch, no nothin'... Just broke at the tang, had about 3/4 of an inch over the rest, and had the handle angle low. There wasn't a tug or a jerk, except in the downward direction as the tool broke and fell to the floor. I mean is it POSSIBLE that the tools were defective and would have broken under similar circumstances working on a pepper mill blank?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

George....I could be wrong....but..it's the cross grain situation that creates the problem. Using it to turn the outside edge of an end grain bowl...vase....where the grain is parallel to the bed.....I don't think that would be a problem. In the cross grain bowl, where the grain is perpendicular to the bed...that's where the problem arises.

I can' believe that CSUSA or a large number of turners would warn against this if it wasn't so.

I don't want to find out for myself! I won't use it in a cross grain situation!

[George Guadiane]

George....I could be wrong....but..it's the cross grain situation that creates the problem. Using it to turn the outside edge of an end grain bowl...vase....where the grain is parallel to the bed.....I don't think that would be a problem. In the cross grain bowl, where the grain is perpendicular to the bed...that's where the problem arises.

I can' believe that CSUSA or a large number of turners would warn against this if it wasn't so.

I don't want to find out for myself! I won't use it in a cross grain situation!
Thanks Ken,
I'm not arguing with anyone about what they say, and/or whether or not they know what they are talking about, I believe they do. I just wanted to clarify whether what I was doing was within the parameters of practical, safe use... From what you said, I was/am.
I continue to use the gouge as described. While I wasn't aware of the end grain thing, I have a BIGGER old carbon steel gouge that I use on side grain stuff with no problem. I really think you could lift a car with it, so I can't see how I could break it or injure myself.
So, now I have more information and the ability to work more safely.
I AM irked by what sounds like an accusation of a fool (me) wanting something for nothing. I would think that when I described the situation and circumstances to the vendors, they would have told me if I were at fault or being unreasonable in my request (they don't like to admit to selling defective things, even from China). I am IRKED at the idea that someone could divine that opinion from the information provided.

[Patrick Taylor]

While I wasn't aware of the end grain thing, I have a BIGGER old carbon steel gouge that I use on side grain stuff with no problem. I really think you could lift a car with it, so I can't see how I could break it or injure myself.


Think about petting a dog "against the grain", versus across the grain. (...at 1200 RPM! :eek: ) The forces on the gouge are a lot higher. Of course they increase with larger diameter, no matter what the orientation, but the end-grain forces are going directly against the material's stiffest and strongest direction twice per revolution.


With the "big gouge" just look for the weakest point and use good judgement. :)

[Doug Thompson]

Jim,
It's good you didn't get hurt. All tools will break at one time or another... everyone knows that. Take it back, get a new one from Woodcraft and continue turning like you've been.

I solved that problem with a 3/4 inch shank... vibration is zero and can be used on any bowl. The sad part is they can not be made at a affordable price so they are not sold.

Now this is a spindle roughing gouge!

[Hilel Salomon]

When I first started out, I assumed that a "roughing gouge" was just that, and tried working on a bowl. The gouge didn't break, but it sure took flight. Over time, I have learned that if I'm really roughing a hardwood piece that I can't bandsaw properly into shape, a 3/4" or 1" (crown makes a good one) bowl gouge really asbsorbs the punishment. Once it's relatively rounded out, smaller gouges will do fine. Also the sharper the gouge, the less punishment it will take during the initial process. Good luck, Hilel

[Bob Hallowell]

Doug, Nice gouge! Thats what I was trying to say about my p&n roughing gouge. It is cut from solid steel and has a 1/2 round tang - exactly same sze and shape as their bowl gouge. It's not going to break.

Bob

[Keith Christopher]

I think the base premise here is not that you did anything wrong, I think it's more of a "most spindle roughing gouges are not good for roughing out a bowl" The width of the gouge, (in the pic) _vs_ the thickness of the tang just couldn't hold up to the work. And the mass of the blank (probably not cored out) applied sufficent force which will most likely break most roughing gouges. I think I speak for everyone here who uses the spinny thing and other WW tools. Glad we don't get injured when these things happen, and mostly offering advice for fellow WWers to assist in them not getting hurt and work more productively.

could you do it this way ? Sure.
Would I do it this way ? Emphatically No.

[George Guadiane]

I think the base premise here is not that you did anything wrong, I think it's more of a "most spindle roughing gouges are not good for roughing out a bowl" The width of the gouge, (in the pic) _vs_ the thickness of the tang just couldn't hold up to the work. And the mass of the blank (probably not cored out) applied sufficent force which will most likely break most roughing gouges. I think I speak for everyone here who uses the spinny thing and other WW tools. Glad we don't get injured when these things happen, and mostly offering advice for fellow WWers to assist in them not getting hurt and work more productively.

could you do it this way ? Sure.
Would I do it this way ? Emphatically No.
Perfectly said!