anyone notice rockler's newest addition?

[frank shic]

i stopped by rockler last week to pick up a plug cutter for a deck project that i just finished yesterday (pics to follow soon i promise!) and as i was about to walk out i was almost BLINDED by the white and green hand power tools lined up against the wall. up until this point, i had only read about festools but i finally had a chance to TOUCH and drool over them up close and personal. now the only question is: which tool to purchase first? :eek:

[Chris Rosenberger]

I had the same experience at the Rockler in Cincinnati, OH Saturday. I had no idea that they were going to be selling Festool. They had a large inventory & a nice display. Although it was not completed yet.

[Paul Comi]

I haven't been in the local Rockler store for a few weeks but I'm doomed if they're in there. The domino was my first festool product and I'm quickly understanding the combination of inventiveness, good dust control and precision in their tools. They're expensive no doubt, but I'm tired of the false economy of buying less than excellent tools and being disappointed in a significant way with aspects of them.

[Keith Outten]

I certainly can't disagree with you assessment of the quality of Festool's line of power tools. Their price point keeps them out of the best value catagory for me though and I have always been able to find suitable alternatives that serve both professional and amateur woodworkers alike.

How do you justify the price? Surely it can't be based on just dust collection. Every time I visit a Festool display I just can't imagine how I could justify a purchase. I'm open minded about the price of tools and I own some big ticket equipment but each and every purchase has to meet a best value metric before I can justify the expense.

.

[Bill Arnold]

... How do you justify the price? Surely it can't be based on just dust collection. Every time I visit a Festool display I just can't imagine how I could justify a purchase. I'm open minded about the price of tools and I own some big ticket equipment but each and every purchase has to meet a best value metric before I can justify the expense.
Amen and amen!

Does a person purchase the green and white for the tool itself or to impress their friends? What is the additional cost really getting you besides that?

:)

[Chris Rosenberger]

I certainly can't disagree with you assessment of the quality of Festool's line of power tools. Their price point keeps them out of the best value catagory for me though and I have always been able to find suitable alternatives that serve both professional and amateur woodworkers alike.

How do you justify the price? Surely it can't be based on just dust collection. Every time I visit a Festool display I just can't imagine how I could justify a purchase. I'm open minded about the price of tools and I own some big ticket equipment but each and every purchase has to meet a best value metric before I can justify the expense.

.

Keith,
I am a new Festool user. I felt the same way you did about Festool. That the price was too high & they can not be that much better. I had never even looked at their tools. But some recent health problems changed that. Two weeks ago a friend suggested that I get a Festool sander. He said that the dust collection was alot better than my current sander. He said it also was quiter, ran smoother & they had a 30 day no questions return policy.
I figured I had nothiing to lose & alot to gain. I bought a sander. Not only was the dust collection alot better the sander is alot better, also the sandpaper is alot better. I could not believe the difference between my old sander & sandpaper & the new one. Now the only way I would give up the sander is if I had to us it for ransom for one of my kids.:eek:

Having said all of that. They do have other tools that I could never justify the cost of. I can't see myself paying what they want for routers & drills. But then again I have never looked at them.

[Daniel Simon]

Which tool first? If you make projects using sheet goods, I'd go with the TS-75 circular saw. It plays a major role on every project that I make.

[Don Bullock]

...as i was about to walk out i was almost BLINDED by the white and green hand power tools lined up against the wall. .... now the only question is: which tool to purchase first? :eek:

Frank,
I had the same experience at the Rockler in Pasadena, but on the way in the stire. While I'd seen their tools at WoodCraft and at shows, it was the first time I'd seen them at Rockler. The Pasadena Rockler is changing a lot of their store around. They've dumped their whole book section and were moving everything arouns in that section of the store the last time I was there.

As for what tools is first I may go with Daniel's idea. I've been thinking about that for a while. I'll wait until my next project that requires me to use sheets of plywood like a cabinet project. For now my Bosch sander is doing well enough for me.

[Brian Weick]

I certainly can't disagree with you assessment of the quality of Festool's line of power tools. Their price point keeps them out of the best value catagory for me though and I have always been able to find suitable alternatives that serve both professional and amateur woodworkers alike.

How do you justify the price? Surely it can't be based on just dust collection. Every time I visit a Festool display I just can't imagine how I could justify a purchase. I'm open minded about the price of tools and I own some big ticket equipment but each and every purchase has to meet a best value metric before I can justify the expense.

.

I have to agree with Keith on this one - Festool Circular saw - $700.00 , It might be all it's pricing justifies - but for me -that's ruff cutting- anything precisely cut goes on the Mustard TS , as for the router? No doubt it is quality tooling ,but that price $490.00? :rolleyes:
Brian

[Chuck Lenz]

A circular saw that costs as much as a tablesaw ? Too rich for my blood.

[Jason White]

There's nothing "ruff" about the way the Festool circular saw cuts. A lot of guys are buying it and getting rid of their tablesaws. The Festool is no ordinary circular saw. Forget about the price and go try one out. It will change your life!

JW


I have to agree with Keith on this one - Festool Circular saw - $700.00 , It might be all it's pricing justifies - but for me -that's ruff cutting- anything precisely cut goes on the Mustard TS , as for the router? No doubt it is quality tooling ,but that price $490.00? :rolleyes:
Brian

[Brian Weick]

There's nothing "ruff" about the way the Festool circular saw cuts. A lot of guys are buying it and getting rid of their tablesaws. The Festool is no ordinary circular saw. Forget about the price and go try one out. It will change your life!

JW

Jason, How are you:)
That festool CS and what I have to do to just make one clean cut will do nothing more than make my life more complicated and time consuming. I was just stating that it is not justifiable for my use- I use a professional TS for any fine work and detailed cuts using a full 52" fence - I am aware of the capabilities and quality of Festool- It's just not for me- to much set up for the Festool CS or, any circular saw for that matter, ~ one step to my TS and that's it-finished. No clamping boards or fancy jigs, I stop my fence on the measurement desired,lock it down, turn it on, make the cut - it's a true clean finished cut from one end to the other -and on to the next. I just can not see spending that kind of money on a circular saw no matter how good it is with all I would have to do just to get a 1 cut setup- sorry- . There are woodworkers on here that swear by that method and I think that's great if it works for them - It saves a lot of space as well in the shop- and that is a plus for someone with little room.
We all have different methods of woodworking but one can not be applied to all. And I will never say one method is better than the other- if someone asks me my personal opinion , I will be happy to give it, but it does not mean they will fallow,nor is that the intention - it's what your comfortable with. My hat goes off to you for your Festool CS :) , It is a very well engineered CS- no doubt. I am very comfortable with my TS and if for some reason my shop shrinks, I would look into that- definitely! -
Happy cutting:)
Brian

[John Stevens]

Every time I visit a Festool display I just can't imagine how I could justify a purchase. I'm open minded about the price of tools and I own some big ticket equipment but each and every purchase has to meet a best value metric before I can justify the expense.

That's exactly the way I thought before I bought my first Festool tools. I thought it was more likely than not that I'd return them during the 30-day trial period. But after using them, I found that they were a very good value, even with the high price. Now, instead of asking how I can justify Festool's high price, I instead find myself asking how I can justify spending my hard-earned cash on tools of lesser quality.

Festool charges a premium price for its tools, but in return Festool delivers all of the precision and ease of use that is promised, and more. In addition, service, when needed, is better than I could have imagined. If it wasn't this way, I wouldn't keep buying Festool tools, because my wife and I earn fairly modest incomes and don't have money to burn. But because of the value that Festool delivers, I own Festool's circular saw, jigsaw, shop vac, one router, the hole-drilling jig for cabinets, two MFTs, two sanders and a Domino.


Does a person purchase the green and white for the tool itself or to impress their friends?

Honestly, Bill, impressing my friends with WW tools never enters my mind. I've never posted a "tool gloat" here, and my friends only care about my character, not what I own.

Regards,

John

[Bob Marino]

I have to agree with Keith on this one - Festool Circular saw - $700.00 Brian

Hi Brian,

I appreciate your comments/opinions regarding a table saw vs the Festool saws, but I am not sure where you get the $700.00 price from. The Festool TS 75 saw is $560.00 and the TS 55 is $440.00.

Bob

[John Thompson]

Having looked at a Festool circular saw, but having never seen one in use I have a question. Jason made a statement that "a lot of guys are buying it and getting rid of their tablesaws". And it's not the first time I have heard a similar statement.

Saturday I ripped 400 linear feet of stock on my TS to make chair rail molding. The stock was in 16' lenghts and I often rip rough stock in over 8' lenghts. I can do it by opening the door behind my TS and placing support stands on the outbound side. My work-bench and assembly tables are used as support on the in-bound side. This allows "one-man" ripping of long stock safely and accurately.

So... my question is: If I got rid of my TS and got a FT circular, how would that simple operation be done? Just curious if there is a way to do it with a Festool as I am not that familar with their circular saw.

Thanks to any who can assist with the question...

Sarge..

[frank shic]

i like buying QUALITY tools and i'm just waiting for a decent-sized project to justify buying either the ATF 55 for chip-free melamine cutting or better yet... the domino!!! it's a hard sell to my home CEO: "well honey, it's true that i could probably BUY a lot of furniture for $700 BUT..."

someone help me with this one!

[Brian Weick]

Hi Brian,

I appreciate your comments/opinions regarding a table saw vs the Festool saws, but I am not sure where you get the $700.00 price from. The Festool TS 75 saw is $560.00 and the TS 55 is $440.00.

Bob

Bob,How are you:)
realistically-you have to take into account that the saw will not get the results you want without the necessary jigs to use as a TS- My price was low- http://www.btisupply.com/FestoolDetail.aspx?ID=3915 . $729.00 and up. You have to purchase these accessories to utilize the saw as it was engineered. Again, not that there is anything wrong with that-not at all, but that's what you are looking at ,price wise, to use the saw correctly.
Regards,
Brian

[Cary Swoveland]

Frank,

Depending on your needs and budget, I'd suggest your first Festool purchase be a "package" that combines the CT22 vacuum with one of the tools listed below.

- ETS 150/3 or 150/5 6" ROS: $642
- OF1400 mid-size router: $787
- TS55 circ saw: $822
- RO150 dual-mode ROS: $873
- DF500 Domino set (i.e., with Domino assortment and all cutters): $1132

If the MFT (multifunction table) is of interest, a sixth possibiliity is the TS55 saw/MFT800 package ($832), plus the CT22 ($450), plus some clamps and accessories for the MFT (~$200).

Cary

[Bob Marino]

Bob,How are you:)
realistically-you have to take into account that the saw will not get the results you want without the necessary jigs to use as a TS- My price was low- http://www.btisupply.com/FestoolDetail.aspx?ID=3915 . $729.00 and up. You have to purchase these accessories to utilize the saw as it was engineered. Again, not that there is anything wrong with that-not at all, but that's what you are looking at ,price wise, to use the saw correctly.
Regards,
Brian

Brian,

The price you quoted from BTI includes the Multi Function Table, and though very useful, is not needed to utilize the saw as it was designed. True, you may want another guide rail and connectors, which does add $$$, but there are no jigs needed to make any cuts.

Bob

[frank shic]

cary, thanks for the advice. i was trying to get the staff at rockler to turn on the vacuum for me last friday but they hadn't got the electricity wired up to the far wall yet :confused:

[Brian Weick]

Brian,

The price you quoted from BTI includes the Multi Function Table, and though very useful, is not needed to utilize the saw as it was designed. True, you may want another guide rail and connectors, which does add $$$, but there are no jigs needed to make any cuts.

Bob

I agree with you that it is "not needed" to make cuts, however ~when trying to get professional results with the Fe stool CS they designed those accessories specifically for that CS and recommend using their setup vs a non proprietary setup~ compared to a professional TS - you really need them and it is part of the costs and not just the costs of the Fe stool CS alone. That's all I am saying Bob.
Happy turning :)
Brian

[glenn bradley]

Same in SoCal. My store now has a Green and Orange wall-o-Festool / Fein stuff. Plus a little demo area right nearby so you can watch demos.

[William Nimmo]

John..I own and absloutely love my festool products. vacs, saw, router,domino and sander. LOVE..LOve using them.
Their precision, quality,ease of use and comfort are unmatched.
Having said that.. I recently purchased a saw stop and use it all the time for projects like you describe.
Now if you don't have room , or need to make accurate,clean cuts in sheet goods on a jobsite, nothing beets the festool saw, guide rails and mft.
But in the shop I always use both.
I don't use a sled with my table saw, I use the mft 1080 where a sled would be used.

[John Stevens]

it's a hard sell to my home CEO: "well honey, it's true that i could probably BUY a lot of furniture for $700 BUT..."

Hi, Frank. I don't think I can help you if your main use for the TS55 will be for melamine cabinets and bookshelves and the like, and your sole justification for spending the money on tools is to save on the cost of buying furniture that's readily availible in retail stores.

The market for furniture is competitive, and economies of scale exist. That being the case, I don't find it cost-effective to make furniture that I could buy from Ikea or Target, etc. For that matter, I don't find it cost-effective to buy furniture that I could buy from a decent furniture store. I find that the only areas in which I'm able to add value are design and durability. For me, the money I've spent on WW tools is only justified by making custom furniture that I can't find in a store, and that I can't afford to pay a studio furniture maker to build for me.

That said, if an additional justification for buying WW tools is that you enjoy WW as a pastime, then maybe that rationale would be more likely to succeed with your home CEO. Good luck.

Regards,

John

[Rob Diz]

And let's not forget, if you really really want a CS with an awesome guide, EZ make a nice set up.

It's not that I'm trying to stoke the fire, but there are other very well functioning CS with guide systems for less, that can cut a wafer thin piece of plywood for a fraction of the cost of festool. The DC is another issue, but can't you wear a respirator for the number of times you use a CS anyway??

[Jason White]

It depends on the type of work you do, of course. I would never suggest to people that they get rid of their tablesaws. I own both the Festool circular saw (TS55) and a contractor-style tablesaw. I agree that if you're making a lot of long, narrow rips a tablesaw is probably the way to go. I was just making the point that the Festool delivers such nice quality cuts that, depending on what type of woodworking you do, you might not need your tablesaw anymore. I'll keep mine, though.

JW


Having looked at a Festool circular saw, but having never seen one in use I have a question. Jason made a statement that "a lot of guys are buying it and getting rid of their tablesaws". And it's not the first time I have heard a similar statement.

Saturday I ripped 400 linear feet of stock on my TS to make chair rail molding. The stock was in 16' lenghts and I often rip rough stock in over 8' lenghts. I can do it by opening the door behind my TS and placing support stands on the outbound side. My work-bench and assembly tables are used as support on the in-bound side. This allows "one-man" ripping of long stock safely and accurately.

So... my question is: If I got rid of my TS and got a FT circular, how would that simple operation be done? Just curious if there is a way to do it with a Festool as I am not that familar with their circular saw.

Thanks to any who can assist with the question...

Sarge..

[frank shic]

john, you're absolutely right. since i'm more of a hobbyist cabinetmaker than a furnituremaker i think the domino can definitely wait for now. am i the only one that derives a masochistic thrill out of hefting 3/4" melamine sheets on to the table saw? i get a kick out of knocking those panels down to thirds with the exaktor sliding table. i think i'll hold off on the atf 55 for now as well. thanks for everyone's opinions!

[Bob Marino]

I agree with you that it is "not needed" to make cuts, however ~when trying to get professional results with the Fe stool CS they designed those accessories specifically for that CS and recommend using their setup vs a non proprietary setup~ compared to a professional TS - you really need them and it is part of the costs and not just the costs of the Fe stool CS alone. That's all I am saying Bob.
Happy turning :)
Brian

I certainly don't want to beat this point any more than I have, but my original post was just to correct the statement of a price of $700.00 for the saw.

Bob

[John Stevens]

am i the only one that derives a masochistic thrill out of hefting 3/4" melamine sheets on to the table saw? i get a kick out of knocking those panels down to thirds with the exaktor sliding table.

On the other hand, if you make enough melamine cabinets to justify the purchase of an Exaktor sliding table, then maybe your next project will justify the cost of the TS55! :) I don't think the Festool system will take away the "masochistic thrill" of lifting the sheets, but it'll save you the indignity of having a little stream of sawdust spewing in your face during each cut. (BTW, the ATF55 has been discontinued in favor of the new and improved TS55.)

Regards,

John

[glenn bradley]

am i the only one that derives a masochistic thrill out of hefting 3/4" melamine sheets on to the table saw? i get a kick out of knocking those panels down to thirds with the exaktor sliding table.

Don't buy into the illusion. You have to move the sheets sooner or later either way (let's all hear a Tim Allen grunt) ;-)

[Gary Keedwell]

Don't buy into the illusion. You have to move the sheets sooner or later either way (let's all hear a Tim Allen grunt) ;-)
:D Funny you say that Glenn....I thought you were using his image as your avatar.;) (has anybody said you look like Tim "the toolman" Taylor?:)
Gary K.

[Gary Keedwell]

I certainly don't want to beat this point any more than I have, but my original post was just to correct the statement of a price of $700.00 for the saw.

Bob
Bob, I have to agree that the accessories $$$ can kill you. ( I'm still debating about the $40 hose caddy:eek: ) (for the vacuum)

Gary K.

[Fred Voorhees]

now the only question is: which tool to purchase first? :eek:

Now your in for it!

[Dan Clark]

Bob,How are you:)
realistically-you have to take into account that the saw will not get the results you want without the necessary jigs to use as a TS- My price was low- http://www.btisupply.com/FestoolDetail.aspx?ID=3915 . $729.00 and up. You have to purchase these accessories to utilize the saw as it was engineered. Again, not that there is anything wrong with that-not at all, but that's what you are looking at ,price wise, to use the saw correctly.
Regards,
Brian
Brian,

To call an MFT a "jig" is pretty funny. The MFT is a very useful standalone tool that performs a lot of different functions and isn't an accessory for the TS55.

Many people use the TS55 (and to a lesser extent the TS75) to break down sheet goods. I've used mine for that and to rip 18' long boards. I don't use the MFT for sheet goods (insullating foam on the floor or a low cutting table is much better). When ripping long boads, the MFT is just a support table - not any better than a B&D workmate.

Using the MFT with the TS55 makes a nice combo for crosscuts, but their are other options.

I don't necessarily think the TS55 or any Festool is the answer for all people or all needs. People buy them for many different reasons. Some like the quality, some like the dust collection, and some like the "systemness". For some it's a combo of things. People try them and decide they like them for their own reasons. But...

At least they try them before commenting about their value. What I find pretty hilarious are comments from people who question their value and have NEVER tried them.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Two other posters mentioned "White and green Festools"... Festool tools are BLACK and green. (They were probably looking at Grizzly or some such.)

[Dan Clark]

Bob, I have to agree that the accessories $$$ can kill you. ( I'm still debating about the $40 hose caddy:eek: ) (for the vacuum)

Gary K.
Gary,

Have you priced power tool accessories lately! The accessories for MANY power tools will kill you. $500 for a Biesemeyer fence! $300 for an Incra Miter Gauge. Good quality is expensive!

Dan.

[Scott Thornton]

The domino is my personal favorite so far in my Festool collection. I'm thinking about getting the circular saw next (probably the smaller one). I also want the drill and a couple sanders...

With that being said, going back on it...I would have started in this order...

1. Circular Saw
2. MFT Table
3. Dust Collection
4. Domino
5. Router
6. Sander

[Jason White]

Don't wait! Call "Uncle Bob"....

www.bobmarinosbesttools.com (http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com)

JW


cary, thanks for the advice. i was trying to get the staff at rockler to turn on the vacuum for me last friday but they hadn't got the electricity wired up to the far wall yet :confused:

[Dan Clark]

Don't wait! Call "Uncle Bob"....

www.bobmarinosbesttools.com (http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com)

JW
And make sure that you ask Bob for gen-u-wine green and BLACK Festools. (None of that green and WHITE stuff.) :D

Dan.

[Keith Outten]

Brian,

People try them and decide they like them for their own reasons. But...

At least they try them before commenting about their value. What I find pretty hilarious are comments from people who question their value and have NEVER tried them.

Regards,

Dan.



Dan,

People question the value of tools for various reasons, certainly some just want to understand the perceived value before continuing their research. There are also those who will never be able to justify an expensive tool simply due to limited financial means or their approach to woodworking in general. Many will never own a Mercedes even though they would like to purchase a luxury auto but it is simply not within their means.

My best value analogy applies to most woodworkers as it allows us all to evaluate the price point against quality and the need for higher performance. This is the basis for my personal opinion that there will never be a "best tool" since there are so many different types of woodworkers. For some the ten dollar HF router is the best value based on their personal requirements.

I have to admit when I read the reviews of so many woodworkers who are so pleased with their Festool purchases I continue to look hard at their product line every time I am near their display. For some reason unknown to me I haven't taken the plunge but I am still open minded and looking for the justification. Possibly nothing will get me over the edge except a few hours of personal experience with one in my own hand.

.

[Todd Jensen]

My vote, and first and only Festool so far, is the TS-55 and a few 55" guides. Extremely versatile, and cleaner cuts than a similarly priced table saw for sheet goods. I've used it for a lot of things from built-ins to sub-tops so far, and still very fond of it. I just use a shop-vac with mine with an adapter, and it works great. Totally ghetto fabulous.

[Gary Keedwell]

And make sure that you ask Bob for gen-u-wine green and BLACK Festools. (None of that green and WHITE stuff.) :D

Dan.
What's wrong with green and white? And just because you put a smiley face on it doesn't make your statement valid.:rolleyes:

Gary K.

[Gary Keedwell]

Dan,

People question the value of tools for various reasons, certainly some just want to understand the perceived value before continuing their research. There are also those who will never be able to justify an expensive tool simply due to limited financial means or their approach to woodworking in general. Many will never own a Mercedes even though they would like to purchase a luxury auto but it is simply not within their means.

My best value analogy applies to most woodworkers as it allows us all to evaluate the price point against quality and the need for higher performance. This is the basis for my personal opinion that there will never be a "best tool" since there are so many different types of woodworkers. For some the ten dollar HF router is the best value based on their personal requirements.

I have to admit when I read the reviews of so many woodworkers who are so pleased with their Festool purchases I continue to look hard at their product line every time I am near their display. For some reason unknown to me I haven't taken the plunge but I am still open minded and looking for the justification. Possibly nothing will get me over the edge except a few hours of personal experience with one in my own hand.

.
I agree Keith. Also, there are alot of impressionable people who read this forum every day but do not post. Your analogy with cars is dead on. Another analogy is when people tell young folks that they can afford that big house with the low interest rates. Just makes me wanna cry, but the responsiblility lies with the buyer. All I can say is ....don't get sucked into buying things unless you really CAN afford them. IMNSHO
Gary K.

[Dan Clark]

What's wrong with green and white? And just because you put a smiley face on it doesn't make your statement valid.:rolleyes:

Gary K.
Gary,

I think you need to take a chill pill. The OP was either looking at the wrong tools or he mis-typed. I was pulling his chain a little.

Bob sells only Festool. And their color scheme is green and BLACK.

Enlighten me - what isn't valid?

Dan.

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary,

I think you need to take a chill pill. The OP was either looking at the wrong tools or he mis-typed. I was pulling his chain a little.

Bob sells only Festool. And their color scheme is green and BLACK.

Enlighten me - what isn't valid?

Dan.
Me take a chill pill? Who gets hot and exicited every time there is a Festool thread:confused: :D Making fun of another brand and validating the sarcasm with a smiley face. You obviously don't like people making fun of Fe$tool...do you? How about extending the courtesy to the good old green and white?:confused: :D :o
Gary K.

[John Thompson]

It depends on the type of work you do, of course. I would never suggest to people that they get rid of their tablesaws. I own both the Festool circular saw (TS55) and a contractor-style tablesaw. I agree that if you're making a lot of long, narrow rips a tablesaw is probably the way to go. I was just making the point that the Festool delivers such nice quality cuts that, depending on what type of woodworking you do, you might not need your tablesaw anymore. I'll keep mine, though.

JW

Morning Jason...

Thanks for an up-front, honest answer. I have seen some get so caught up with a tool that they stigmatize any other approach or brand when the truth is every tool has it limits and quirks. I also handle a lot of 12/4 and 16/4 rough stock. The 12/4 is pushing the limits on my Uni-saw and the FT comes up 1/4" short with the rail from what I read of the specs. And I would be a little hesitant of 13 amps on 12/4 black locust or hard maple as opposed to 3-5 HP.

Neither will cut 16/4 stock without flipping the board. I find it quicker to go the 18" BS for a rip I set up slightly proud and take the last proud nip with the jointer if it is a "final" cut. If.. if the stock is shorter than 6'. If not I opt to flip the stock as it is hard to properly support 7' + on a BS.

I do like the FT track for sheet goods, but I also like the E Z. I wouldn't purchase either as I can do the same precision cut with sheet goods jig made of a piece of 1/2" MDF with a 1/2" MDF fence built on top. That jig can be made in under 30 minutes and the cost of a 4' for cross-cut and 8' for rip is the cost of about 1/2 of a sheet of 1/2" MDF. Cheap! A simple, quick score with a razor knife though the first layer of ply with blue painters tape on placed over the cut line ensures the same splinter free cut.

And I have seen and used the FT sander. That I am impressed with. Not that I feel it will sand any smoother as I usually finish with a card scraper anyway.. but the dust collection is really good from what I witnessed. Maybe someday on that one as 35 years of eating fine dust will slowly but surely take it's toll. Nobody paid any attention to fine dust then as they do now and that is sad that it was grossly over-looked in the small shop for so long.

Again.. thanks for taking time to reply and enjoy your "green and black"!

Sarge...

[Emmanuel Weber]

Sarge,

I agree with you on the fact that to break down sheet good you can build up a jig and provide similar functionnality at a fraction of the cost.

I am not familiar with the EZ system so I will not comment.

In the case of festool, if you add the MFT into the mix (or two in my case) you not only get a rail to make smooth straight cut with a circular saw but you get a system that you can quickly and accurately setup. Once you square the fence of the MFT with the guide rail (and add a sticky tape to the fence) you can breakdown sheet good extremely fast and accurately without even using a tape measure.
At the end of the day its a question on how much sheet goods you need to break down, how accurate you can be positioning a jig over and over how much money you can or want to spend, how much room you have in your shop (I whish I could fit that slider) etc

Emmanuel

[Don Bullock]

...I do like the FT track for sheet goods, but I also like the E Z. I wouldn't purchase either as I can do the same precision cut with sheet goods jig made of a piece of 1/2" MDF with a 1/2" MDF fence built on top. That jig can be made in under 30 minutes and the cost of a 4' for cross-cut and 8' for rip is the cost of about 1/2 of a sheet of 1/2" MDF. Cheap! A simple, quick score with a razor knife though the first layer of ply with blue painters tape on placed over the cut line ensures the same splinter free cut....Sarge...

Sarge, thanks for the comment about a sheet goods jig. That's something that I haven't seen yet. or at least I don't remember seeing one. Is there a thread, here or elsewhere that you have shown it? While I'm not cutting much sheet goods right now, I may need to in the near future. A jid for the TS sounds like something I'd be interested in. Thanks.

It's too bad that threads like this always become places for "brand wars" rather than peope just letting it go. The OP was just surprised and pleased to see that Rockler had joined the list of Festool dealers and was finally able to see some for the first time. Obviously, like all tools, they aren't for everyone, nor did anyone say that they are.

[Dan Clark]

As Jason and John have pointed out, the type of work you do is a major factor in defining the best tool.

Another is your working conditions. Besides the type of work we do, what tends to drive our point of view are the constraints under which we work. We comment based on our own needs and constraints, and tend to forget that others have different needs and constaints.

If you have a large, dedicated shop with lots of open space, fixed machines like large table saws may make the most sense. With a lot of empty wall space, a panel saw for cutting sheets may be the best option. A decent sized, fixed shop makes a large, fixed dust collection system a worthwhile investment.

OTOH, if you have a garage shop that must serve multiple purposes, and your have neither a nice flat driveway nor decent weather most of the time, then portability, storability, and working in a compact space become critical. Fixed dust collecting might be difficult or impossible. Having a large table saw, even if movable, may a major hassle at best or impossible at worst.

The OP mentioned that he was building a deck and also cabinets. For a deck, unless your shop was very close, a tablesaw would NOT be the tool of choice. For cutting most of the deck boards, a miter saw would be best with maybe a rail-guided CS for trimming the ends.

For cabinet work, it would depend on how much you do. Rail-guided CS's work nicely for breaking down sheet goods. I get great cuts with my TS55 + rails. OTOH, if you're making dozens of cabinets a month, a table saw might be the better choice.

In other words, it all depends. As Keith points out and in my opinion, perceived value depends on what you want to do, where you want to do it, and obviously how much money you want to spend.

In Rockler, the OP got the warm and fuzzies for Festool. But was it because of the name and perceived quality? Because he could do quality work in places other than a fixed shop? Does the Festool approach best meet his space and portability requirements? Does he like the systemness? Is it dust collection? What's the driving force for HIM?

Regards,

Dan.

[Loren Hedahl]

Here is my cost justification: Festool vs Dedicated Shop

My entrance into Festool was when I came to the conclusion that my garage/shop needed extensive upgrading and expanding to accommodate my woodworking, i.e., electrical service, dust control, space, etc.

More graphically, I found myself and everything in my shop cloaked and choked in sawdust after using my shop-made guided circular saw setup. The results were excellent, but the mess wasn't. The cleanup time was extensive and not much fun as was the choking and the coughing the next few days. A similar scenario occurred when using my contractor's saw, compound miter saw and radial arm saw, as well as the various sanders I was using.

The Festool saw and shop vac has cleaned up these operations to an acceptable level at a whole lot cheaper than building a new dedicated shop, or remodeling my existing space. I only have one Festool Rotex sander, so far, but get acceptable dust control hooking the Festool vac up to my existing quarter sheet sander.

Also, I'm finding the Festool stuff leaves so little mess, I am bringing it into the house for some remodel work I'm doing on my own house.

[Jim Becker]

For some reason unknown to me I haven't taken the plunge but I am still open minded and looking for the justification. Possibly nothing will get me over the edge except a few hours of personal experience with one in my own hand.

Keith, that's exactly what I did...spent several hours (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=3829) with the whole lot of the product line in my shop with Bob's help and participation. I later had a few folks over to do the same as a "social function (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12781)". I do believe that it's important to test drive tools when you have the opportunity. At least with this product line, you can even do that out in the hinterlands given the 30 day satisfaction policy. You may like the whole line or only certain tools, depending on your needs and expectations. Or maybe even decide that none of them are appropriate for you. All of those options are very nice to have!

[John Stevens]

The OP was either looking at the wrong tools or he mis-typed. [snip]
And their color scheme is green and BLACK.

Dan, the OP was referring to the systainers, which are green and white. The tools themselves are not green and black. They're midnight blue with green controls. Hold the power cord up next to the body of the tool in bright light and you'll see for yourself. Pretty cool, eh?

Regards,

John

[John Thompson]

Sarge, thanks for the comment about a sheet goods jig. That's something that I haven't seen yet. or at least I don't remember seeing one. Is there a thread, here or elsewhere that you have shown it? While I'm not cutting much sheet goods right now, I may need to in the near future. A jid for the TS sounds like something I'd be interested in. Thanks.

It's too bad that threads like this always become places for "brand wars" rather than peope just letting it go. The OP was just surprised and pleased to see that Rockler had joined the list of Festool dealers and was finally able to see some for the first time. Obviously, like all tools, they aren't for everyone, nor did anyone say that they are.

Morning Don..

Actually Don, my jigs are made to use with my PC mag circular for sheet goods the same as the FT and EZ uses. As Dan and Loren pointed out, the decision of "how" and "what" need to be based on "your" needs and "your" shop conditions as we all have various ingredients that blend to derive at an answer to those questiions.

I use a very high percentage of solid stock with a sheet being thrown into the mix every so often. And I live in Atlanta which allows the outer doors to be opened when necessary about 9-10 months a year. I lose heat when I do it, but my space heater tapped from an over-head 1/2" gas pipe that goes to the fireplace starter can bring the shop back to 68-70 degrees in under 6 minutes when I have opened them even in the coldest months. Hence.. I can take it outside the door in the large drive-way when sheet goods come into play.

So.. I have no need for major dust collection with sheet goods as someone say in a basement shop that has a central AC-Heater located in the same room that will transport fine dust through ducts to the un-protected family up-stairs. I keep some tools that are dust makers in my rear shop which is a 1/2 basement and has a central AC. But.. I won't use them there as they are rolled quickly up to the cut area by the outer doors and the Cyclone awaits.

So.. I don't need an expensive Festool circular as I get fantastic cuts on sheet goods with a simple home-made jig anyone can build in minutes. And the dust is never a problem with the conditions I described. I am not either "for or against" FT in general. It has it's place and that is up to the individual to decide if it best meets their needs and budget as Dan and Loren mentioned.

What I am against is for an in-experienced WW to get caught up in the hype and be influenced to believe that he cannot get an acceptable end result without the "super duper poopy scooper" that is so automated that it takes the "craft" out of "craftsman-ship". That over-looks the needs to learn the basics and he will never become a master craftsman that is capable of taking any given situation and finding a way to succeed without reliance on the tool being more efficeint than the operator.

I just made up my jig Don... my wife is gone to a meeting so I can't post a pic of it. She may get back before I leave for work at 1 PM EST and maybe not. If not.. I will get a picture she can put in the computer for me (I am computer challenged in these matters :) ) and I will post. If not early afternoon.. then late this evening as I don't get home till aound 11 PM Mon.-Thur. as I only work 4 days a week.

The jig is simply 11" wide to start. A 2" wide piece of MDF fence is placed and squared 6" from the lead edge and attached. That leaves 2" opposite of the saw side of the fence for clamping. Place the saw base against the fence and make a cut. You now have a fence that when the saw is placed on top of the jig that the saw-blade drops off the outside outer edge of the saw side just as FT and EZ.

You then use a tape measure and make a tick on each side of the panel. Align the front edge to those ticks and clamp. The saw goes on the flat jig top and rides the fence. There is no grove for the saw to ride in (just a 5" wide flat surface to the fence) like the FT or EZ. But the day I can't keep a circular saw against a 1/2" high fence for 48" or 96" is the day I will shut down my shop. That will be the day that the craft abandoned the craftsman in my shop! ;)


Regards...

Sarge..

[Keith Outten]

Jim,

I have yet to purchase any hand power tools for CNU's sign shop so a decision has to be made soon concerning vendors, makes and models. Our sign shop is located within our Architects office building so cleanliness is a bit more important than in my stand alone shop at home. Of course less mess during fabrication means less mess to cleanup at the end of the day. These are the reasons I keep looking at Festool sanders and their router.

.

[John Thompson]

Sarge, thanks for the comment about a sheet goods jig. That's something that I haven't seen yet. or at least I don't remember seeing one. Is there a thread, here or elsewhere that you have shown it? While I'm not cutting much sheet goods right now, I may need to in the near future. A jid for the TS sounds like something I'd be interested in. Thanks.

It's too bad that threads like this always become places for "brand wars" rather than peope just letting it go. The OP was just surprised and pleased to see that Rockler had joined the list of Festool dealers and was finally able to see some for the first time. Obviously, like all tools, they aren't for everyone, nor did anyone say that they are.

Here ya go Don. as she arrived back early. Hasty set up but the pics are kind pretty much self-explanatory.....

Sarge..

[Bob Childress]

To return to Frank's original post, it is nice to have a hands-on opportunity to feel and play with any tool, not just Festo. But I suspect, much like when Woodcraft first picked up the line, it will be a while before the sales staff are up to speed. So don't get frustrated if they can't answer all your questions right off, just heft the tools and then you can still talk to Bob M or one of the experienced dealers if you have technical questions.

The best thing about having local dealerships is actually being able to pick up a quick box of sandpaper and the like when you run out in the middle of a project. :)

[Byron Trantham]

I certainly can't disagree with you assessment of the quality of Festool's line of power tools. Their price point keeps them out of the best value catagory for me though and I have always been able to find suitable alternatives that serve both professional and amateur woodworkers alike.

How do you justify the price? Surely it can't be based on just dust collection. Every time I visit a Festool display I just can't imagine how I could justify a purchase. I'm open minded about the price of tools and I own some big ticket equipment but each and every purchase has to meet a best value metric before I can justify the expense.

.


A men! Nice but not necessary.

[Tim Sproul]

john, you're absolutely right. since i'm more of a hobbyist cabinetmaker than a furnituremaker i think the domino can definitely wait for now. am i the only one that derives a masochistic thrill out of hefting 3/4" melamine sheets on to the table saw? i get a kick out of knocking those panels down to thirds with the exaktor sliding table. i think i'll hold off on the atf 55 for now as well. thanks for everyone's opinions!


Frank,

You need a Gorilla Gripper.

The Domino is quite good for sheetgoods cabinetry. Allows you to cut sheets like you're doing pocket holes or simple butts and screws but gives you the advantage of dadoes/rabbets - positive alignment during assembly. This is all without sacrificing on speed or joint strength. For this purpose, biscuits give you most of the same...although IME biscuits are more sloppy than Dominos.

[frank shic]

tim, thanks for the advice - i already have TWO gorilla grippers although they don't really do anything for getting it up on to the sliding table!

as accurate as the domino may be, it still seems slower to me than stapling and screwing the cabinets together since there's no clamping or waiting for the glue to dry. the only time i would purchase a domino would be if i decided to build complicated furniture in the future. for now, i'll just be pocket-screwing as much as i can. as far as biscuits go, i sold off my PC557 two months ago when i realized that it wasn't going to be that useful for either cabinetry or furnituremaking.

it was indeed a thrill to actually HANDLE some of the legendary festools in person last week. i never realized how light the 55 was compared to my porter cable mag saw and the domino was one SOLID piece of equipment.

[Henry Cavanaugh]

Previously I have used a sander with a dust canister which did not do A good job in dust control. I purchased a Festool sander (150-3 ets) and 22 vac. Sanding mdf there was no dust and I thought the vac didnt work until upon closer inspection it was on but quiter than sander so I could'nt hear it. I will try the vac to my older sander to see the results but havent yet.