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Bill Huber
09-09-2007, 12:32 PM
I am replacing my Bosch router table with a new table and I have built the base for the table. The cabinet will have drawers and doors on it when I am finished and I hope it will look nice.
See Jessem gloat.. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=64822

The old Bosch had a DC port in the back lower area of the cabinet, this work very well because all the chips and dust go under the table when the fence port could not get them.
The problem is that all the dust just fills the router, I think this is why I had to get a new switch form Bosch because of all the dust that was in it.
I looked at a lot of different cabinets and most if not all I looked at had a DC port in the box under the router, this would have given me the same problem.
So I came up with this mod to the cabinet, its not a really high tech thing but I think it will work very well and I will not have the problem of all the dust in the router.
I made an enclosed port that the router lift and motor go though and there is enough clearance around it to let me raise and lower the router. The clean air will come in around the router and the chips and dust will be pulled down from the top, both with exit the DC hose in the back. This should as keep the lift from getting all the dust in the lift screw.
I just used all the scrap I had left from making the cabinet and I also have some dry ease board left form my easel project that I think I will cover the inside of the port with to help with the movement of the dust.

You can see the port is not going down into the main cabinet but about 3 1/2 inches, and pleas don't ask why it is not centered.

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With the table on you can see where the dust port is setting.
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With out the table on you can see how the clean air will be pulled up around the lift and the motor.
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Just looking from under the table.
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glenn bradley
09-09-2007, 12:36 PM
I like it. I can see this really reducing the dust in the air that the router sucks in if it sucks from the "top". Will there also be an exit port below the plate for the stuff that gets by?

Brian Weick
09-09-2007, 12:42 PM
Yes,
That will definitly create more draw - I am definitly thinking of doing the same thing-great idea!:D
Brian

Bill Huber
09-09-2007, 1:41 PM
I like it. I can see this really reducing the dust in the air that the router sucks in if it sucks from the "top". Will there also be an exit port below the plate for the stuff that gets by?

Out put is between the router plate and the floor of the port, so there should be nothing that gets though if the DC is turned on, in my case it is the shop vac.

Does this show it better?

71566

Jim Becker
09-09-2007, 1:51 PM
Interesting. It will be great for you to revisit this after using it for awhile to let us know how it works out.

Bill Huber
09-09-2007, 5:45 PM
Interesting. It will be great for you to revisit this after using it for awhile to let us know how it works out.


Jim, I did some testing this afternoon, I cut 1/4 rounds on some scrap MDF. Then I cut them off and cut more 1/4 rounds and so on.

At this point I would say it works very well, there was no dust on the router and very little and I mean very little on the frame of the lift.

I guess time will really tell just how well it works.

John Lucas
09-09-2007, 6:00 PM
Bill,
Please do keep us informed. My understanding is that dust wants to go in three directions usually depending on the bit. First, down through the router plate and out as you are finding. 2) out through the fence and 3) out in front of the work. As examples of the 2nd scenario, I find that many raised panel operations will send dust through the fence hole. The key is whether the bit is such that the dust can be sent down. For the raised panel bit itself, most of it is ejected through the fence by the force of the router bit and because, the workpiece is blocking the down direction. An example for the 3rd scenario is when using a straight bit and cutting dados. Here the chips have only one way to go, where the cut has just been made - out in front of the cut...to the left of the table. As far as DC goes, you have the answer for number 1. For the 2nd scenario, a dc port on the fence is in order the 3rd scenario is hardest to handle...usually a quick sweep after the cut is finished is all that can be done, unless you have someone who can hold a vac port in front of the wood you are routing. If your DC is powerful enough, you can set up the 1 and 2 from one good size DC. I use a 1 hp portable DC on wheels behind my router table and switch hose from port to port...not very scientific or sophisticated but workable. I have found that if you ignor the dust and chips that come down through the router plate, the router will have a greater chance of a shortened life. You have witnessed the down draft bring chips and dust down and by the router. Turn your DC off and you may well see that the routers fan will try to swallow the dust. I know people have installed bug screens around the router bit and over the top of the router. I cringe at even saying this. The thought of 22,000 rpm catching the edge of the screen ... arggggggggggg.

Phil Thien
09-09-2007, 6:51 PM
Fantastic. I have been using a down-draft box and have experienced problems w/ my motor sucking-in too much dust. Your solution is ideal. Thanks!

Bill Huber
09-09-2007, 7:29 PM
Bill,
Please do keep us informed. My understanding is that dust wants to go in three directions usually depending on the bit. First, down through the router plate and out as you are finding. 2) out through the fence and 3) out in front of the work. As examples of the 2nd scenario, I find that many raised panel operations will send dust through the fence hole. The key is whether the bit is such that the dust can be sent down. For the raised panel bit itself, most of it is ejected through the fence by the force of the router bit and because, the workpiece is blocking the down direction. An example for the 3rd scenario is when using a straight bit and cutting dados. Here the chips have only one way to go, where the cut has just been made - out in front of the cut...to the left of the table. As far as DC goes, you have the answer for number 1. For the 2nd scenario, a dc port on the fence is in order the 3rd scenario is hardest to handle...usually a quick sweep after the cut is finished is all that can be done, unless you have someone who can hold a vac port in front of the wood you are routing. If your DC is powerful enough, you can set up the 1 and 2 from one good size DC. I use a 1 hp portable DC on wheels behind my router table and switch hose from port to port...not very scientific or sophisticated but workable. I have found that if you ignor the dust and chips that come down through the router plate, the router will have a greater chance of a shortened life. You have witnessed the down draft bring chips and dust down and by the router. Turn your DC off and you may well see that the routers fan will try to swallow the dust. I know people have installed bug screens around the router bit and over the top of the router. I cringe at even saying this. The thought of 22,000 rpm catching the edge of the screen ... arggggggggggg.

I use a shop vac and 2 gates from it to the router. Depending on what I am routing I will open one gate all the way and the other gate a lesser amount.
With the new cabinet I will still have the DC connected to the fence port and also the under table port and use them the same way I have in the past.

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Bill Huber
09-12-2007, 11:29 AM
I have found that the dust never gets to the motor but there are few larger chips that do go down to the box under the router. I don't think any of the could get sucked into the router motor, they are just to big and heavy.
I do think if I had a better dust collector it would even be better, the shop vac really does not have the volume that a larger DC would have.

I built the front door last night and cut some vent grooves in it so the air can get though from the bottom.

All in all at this point I would say if you are building a new table with a enclosed box this is the way to go, the router looks so much better without all that dust on it.
The router motor at the top, were the air comes out from the motor is clean also. In the past with just a normal down draft box this area would fill with dust also.

More to come as time goes on.

Suanne Lippman
09-12-2007, 5:11 PM
Unless I am missing something, doesn't everyone do it that way?

I don't use dust collection on the fence at all. Instead I have the table open under the fence, so it just sucks down through the fence.

Mike Spanbauer
09-12-2007, 5:40 PM
Clever! I like it!

mike

John Stevens
09-12-2007, 10:49 PM
I built the front door last night and cut some vent grooves in it so the air can get though from the bottom.

Bill, thanks for sharing your idea. Just one question: does the front door improve dust collection? I'm wondering whether leaving that area completely open would give the best performance.

Regards,

John

Bill Huber
09-13-2007, 1:37 AM
Unless I am missing something, doesn't everyone do it that way?

I don't use dust collection on the fence at all. Instead I have the table open under the fence, so it just sucks down through the fence.

I am not sure how that is done, do you cut part of the table out or what.

But where does all the dust go, does it go into a basic box under the router and does the router get just full of dust?

The dust all over the router is what I have cleared up, at this point I am not getting the dust on or in the router like I was with my old Bosch table.

Bill Huber
09-13-2007, 1:46 AM
Bill, thanks for sharing your idea. Just one question: does the front door improve dust collection? I'm wondering whether leaving that area completely open would give the best performance.

Regards,

John

Well I am not sure, I don't have the front all done. I have cut about 5, 1/4 x 7 in. slots in the door at this time.

How I tested it was to put the door over the opening and listen to the vac, it change speeds a little, I had the insert that I use the most in the table. I then cut the slots until I could here no change is speed on the vac and added one more.

The door is just really for looks, I could just leave it off but I think the cabinet will look a lot better with it on.

Chris Friesen
09-13-2007, 11:30 AM
An example for the 3rd scenario is when using a straight bit and cutting dados. Here the chips have only one way to go, where the cut has just been made - out in front of the cut...to the left of the table.

I've seen some router tables where the insert has a hole cut in it such that the debris from dado/groove cuts travels a few inches and then gets sucked down through the insert. I suspect this would work better with the higher suction of a shopvac due to the small path for the air (which is only the size of the groove itself).

Brad Sperr
09-13-2007, 11:49 AM
Great idea, Bill! I going to try and adapt your plan for my own router table enclosure. I have the older style Rout-r-lift (with the pre-drilled plate for mounting) and not the FX model, but it should work the same in principle. :)

glenn bradley
09-13-2007, 11:53 AM
Out put is between the router plate and the floor of the port, so there should be nothing that gets though if the DC is turned on, in my case it is the shop vac.

Does this show it better?

71566

Ah, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks!

Jim O'Dell
09-15-2007, 5:41 PM
After being prodded :eek: :D by Bill because I didn't grasp his concept :o I have decided to modify my in progress router table to incorporate his idea on doing it updraft style instead of down draft as I had planned, and how I'd bet most everyone has always done it in the past. But I'm saying dirty words right now Bill! They're aimed at you! :D :D :D I'm having to cut 16" of the table support (3/4" oak veneer ply) with a sawsall blade wrapped in tape and paper towel,..... by hand!! I can't get a power tool in there to cut it. It will take a lot of filing when I'm through. Hopefully the angle grinder will help me there. Still need to go get an HVAC register boot to go on the side of the box.
Thanks for taking the time to PM me when I failed to look close enough at your design.....I think.:D Jim.

Jim Kountz
09-15-2007, 9:39 PM
I built a similar table to the first version of Normies router table years ago when it came out in American Woodworker I think # 44. This was the version before the Rockler one. It has through the fence and down through the bit opening collection and it works great except when the fence is away from the cutter as in cutting a dado . Mine has a removable piece of lexan for a door and I have drilled several 1" holes in it for make up air and to help move the chips that fall down out through the dust port in the back. Decent concept but could be better.

Bill Huber
09-15-2007, 9:49 PM
After being prodded by Bill because I didn't grasp his concept I have decided to modify my in progress router table to incorporate his idea on doing it updraft style instead of down draft as I had planned, and how I'd bet most everyone has always done it in the past. But I'm saying dirty words right now Bill! They're aimed at you! I'm having to cut 16" of the table support (3/4" oak veneer ply) with a sawsall blade wrapped in tape and paper towel,..... by hand!! I can't get a power tool in there to cut it. It will take a lot of filing when I'm through. Hopefully the angle grinder will help me there. Still need to go get an HVAC register boot to go on the side of the box.
Thanks for taking the time to PM me when I failed to look close enough at your design.....I think. Jim.


I found that my set up didn't work at all and I took it all out and went back to the normal way......




Just kidding......:D :D :D :D :D

It is working very well and I still do not have any dust in the motor.
I have found that the box area likes to have a lot of air, that is the more you shut the area off from the vac the more large chips that will fall into the box.
The router is what is blowing the chips down into the box, the exhaust that comes out of the top hits the plate and some of it you can feel blows out the bottom.

You should have called, I would have come over and helped. I don't live that far from you, I am just in Fort Worth on the north, just south of Haslet and 2 miles west of 35W.

Bill Huber
09-15-2007, 9:54 PM
I built a similar table to the first version of Normies router table years ago when it came out in American Woodworker I think # 44. This was the version before the Rockler one. It has through the fence and down through the bit opening collection and it works great except when the fence is away from the cutter as in cutting a dado . Mine has a removable piece of lexan for a door and I have drilled several 1" holes in it for make up air and to help move the chips that fall down out through the dust port in the back. Decent concept but could be better.


But does all the dust that come down there get all over the router and is sucked up into it.
That was the problem I was working on, that dust is what got into the switch and I had to clean it all the time. Now when I used it out of the table it would never give me a problem. Let me put it in the table and it would fill the switch in no time. I do have the new switch now but all that dust can not be good for the motor.

Jim Kountz
09-15-2007, 10:06 PM
But does all the dust that come down there get all over the router and is sucked up into it.


An honest guess would be 90% gets pulled away and into the DC but does it all get sucked up? No. I dont know that any system would get all if it. Some still falls on the router motor.

Jim O'Dell
09-15-2007, 10:20 PM
Thanks for the offer, Bill. I was out most of the day today...didn't know when I would get to go to the shop. Ended up being after 4:00. I actually marked the slot last night. Failed to get the HVAC transition when I was at HD this morning. Not sure if I'll go after it tomorrow or not. May wait until Mon evening on the way home from work. 2 extra miles as opposed to 16 mile round trip. The only transition I can find that is 8" wide is 4" tall. I only need 2", so will block off some top and bottom to the plywood I will mount it to. That is roughly the same area that the 5" outlet has. My inlet at the bottom of the router chamber is a 6" hole, and I have a sliding gate so I can adjust how much air comes in so I can regulate the dust collection top and bottom to some degree. We'll see how it works.
Need to get together some weekend and tour each other's shops. I always like to steal ideas! :rolleyes: Jim.

Suanne Lippman
09-16-2007, 12:57 AM
I am not sure how that is done, do you cut part of the table out or what.

But where does all the dust go, does it go into a basic box under the router and does the router get just full of dust?

The dust all over the router is what I have cleared up, at this point I am not getting the dust on or in the router like I was with my old Bosch table.

I cut extra holes in the table insert to suck the dust in. With a DC, as opposed to a vacuum, you have to have a lot of openings to avoid choking it, but that is okay, and they pick up the dust.
I then have the DC connected to the side of the the router box. A little dust swirls around right on the bottom of the box, but the rest is pretty spotless.

The only thing I do unusual is having the hole under the fence rather than above the fence; a DC port on the router box is pretty routine; or so I think it is.

Bill Huber
09-16-2007, 1:48 AM
Info on cutting the hole around the router lift or base.

What I did was to set the base on the floor without the router in it. I stood right over it and took a picture looking straight down on it.
Made some measurements for reference.
I then pulled it into the computer and sized it so the image was the same size as the lift. Printed it out, taped it to the masonite and then cut the hole a little larger all the way around.

Bill Huber
09-16-2007, 1:50 AM
I cut extra holes in the table insert to suck the dust in. With a DC, as opposed to a vacuum, you have to have a lot of openings to avoid choking it, but that is okay, and they pick up the dust.
I then have the DC connected to the side of the the router box. A little dust swirls around right on the bottom of the box, but the rest is pretty spotless.

The only thing I do unusual is having the hole under the fence rather than above the fence; a DC port on the router box is pretty routine; or so I think it is.

You are correct, just about every router cabinet that I looked at had a port. The big difference in the way I am doing mine and the ones I saw is that the dust does not get sucked into the router at all.

Brent Norrod
09-20-2007, 9:24 AM
Bill,

Thanks to the welcome. I saw your DC idea the other day, and thought, that's a really good idea. I am going to use it. The top of my router is wide open and it sucks in the dust !



My new Router Table is coming along. I am building a fence for it now. Working on prototype #2.

Cheers,
- Brent

Alan Schwabacher
09-20-2007, 1:00 PM
I've been using a Bosch 1617EVS with its fixed base in a router table for about a year with the same sort of updraft DC you show. I also use a shopvac pulling through the fence sometimes, since a small fence opening works better with the greater suction but lower flow of the shopvac.

The only time I see any dust at all inside the cabinet is when I forget to turn on the DC. I don't have a door enclosing the router, which might help since a door could limit the airflow.

By the way, some of the air goes right through the router: it gets sucked in at the top (bottom while router is upside down) and blown out near the bit. Orienting the DC flow the same way helps keep chips out, particularly if you ensure that there's no pile of dust in the bottom of the cabinet to get sucked in.

Jim O'Dell
10-17-2007, 10:24 PM
Bill et al, I've got my router table working, not finished. The up draft works... it realy works!! I used an 8 X 4" to 6" round HVAC component. Mounted it to the side of my router chamber that had a 2X8" opening (roughly the same area as the 6" pipe end). I get absolutely no dust in the bottom of the chamber, and I don't have the plate around the router as you do. So far I'm hooking up the fence pick up to the shop vac, and running both at the same time, as I haven't found a good way to get a 2 1/2" hose adapted to the 6" pipe yet. This may work better any way.
Anyway, wanted to let you know that your idea is a success here. Thanks for the information and prodding when I didn't fully understand what you were doing! Jim.

Bob Horvath
10-25-2007, 3:31 AM
Just thought I would let you know that I tried your method tonight by doing a rough mockup and it looks like its going to work well.Thanks for the lightbulb.

Jim Heffner
10-25-2007, 6:29 PM
Just a suggestion here, my opinion only, I installed a vacuum/ dust collection port on the back side of the router table fence, right behind the
blade, you might want to as well. It collects about 95% of the dust right at the bit, very little, almost none gets into the cabinet itself. Jim Heffner

Bill Huber
10-26-2007, 1:43 AM
I agree and I have both.
I use the one under the table the most but there are some cuts that I will open the gate on the top one as well. I don't open it all the way, just enough to pull out what the router is throwing in the port.

Here is my cabinet setup

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=65473

Bob Horvath
10-27-2007, 2:25 AM
I have the same jessem top and fence with the port at the bit.When profiling an edge, most of the chips will go through the fence port.If you don't have a zero clearance plate a lot of chips end up underneath the router and the cabinet.While doing my test cuts, with both ports open, I had virtually no chips underneath the router.This way the router is not sucking any dust into itself.I ended up making the mockup a permanent fixture with a few brads and some glue.I'm having some camera issues at the moment and cant post any pics, but its virtually the same as Bill's.

Anthony Whitesell
02-12-2008, 7:48 AM
Alan and Bill,

I have just finished my router table with a Rousseau 3002 and Bosch 1617EVS motor. I wanted to take it for a test run so I installed a rabbet bit at some random depth and grabbed a piece of scrap and tired 'er out. No fence, no dust collection, and I noticed something very interesting about the 1617EVS air flow.

The next time your in the shop, turn on the router, grab a hand full of fine saw dust, and drop it on top of the router. You should notice that it doesn't get sucked in from the top of the table, instead it blows all over table top and shop. The normal air flow for the router is from the top (by the switch and speed control), through the motor body (I presume for cooling), and then out the bottom.

I believe the problem with the Bosch motor in the enclosure is due to the fact that it was originally designed to be hand held and not in an air with lots of dust by the top of the motor. I saw somewhere that someone took a piece of DC hose and wrapped one end around the top of the motor and the other end to fresh air. Same concept as Bill's design but for different reasoning.

John Hixon
11-06-2008, 7:11 AM
You could do the same thing with a strong point light source overhead,and trace the shadow on the material you will cut, or on something to make a template.

Leo Zick
11-06-2008, 8:58 AM
interesting. ive found the opposite. most of my dust goes through the fence dust collector port, with only some chips falling below. i never made a dust port in the back of the table (mostly b/c i use a shopvac and dont want to tee it), so all the chips that arent caught at the table fall and sit below. ill take a pic and show you a month of accumulated dust, its not much at all.

my bigger problem is routing dados. the groove is a launchpad for all the dust to fly out of the left side of the table, so i have to try and hold a vac at the end of the piece im dadoing. lol.

oh one more question - do you have to reach under for tool changes, or does the lift allow for above the table? if under, do you have enough room?

Anthony Whitesell
11-06-2008, 11:17 AM
As I only own two routers (an age old 1/4" only Craftsman and a Bosch 1617EVS), I can't say for sure, but I think the issue solved by Bill's design is specific to the Bosch.

The issue with the Bosch is the high airflow through the router motor. It causes the dust to be sucked into the motor and the switches causing all kinds of messy problems. Bill's design leaves the "air inlet" side of the router motor in fresh air while still sucking up any chips and dust that do happen to fall below the router.

I have definately noticed that it depends on the profile and cut that I'm making as to how much ends up below the table top.

Alan Schwabacher
11-06-2008, 1:39 PM
I think most routers take in air at the motor and blow it out near the bit. That helps keep dust from being pulled into the motor. Some routers do poorly in a table because they do not have enough flow to keep dust from falling into the windings when the router is upside down in a table. The Bosch motor airflow is not a "problem", but a good feature. Any router will do better with the kind of dust collection shown in this thread, that keeps a pile of dust from growing under the router air inlet.

Anthony Whitesell
11-06-2008, 3:31 PM
I think it is also a feature, but the amount of airflow combined with the design of the housing and switches do not make for a good combination when use in a router cabinet. I am also improving on Bill's design by making a 1" thick collar the same shape as the opening and then adding some foam between the collar and the router to dampen the airflow for more suction through the cabinet.

Doug Shepard
05-10-2009, 2:34 PM
I know this is an older thread but I was recently pointed in this direction by a PM (Thanks Heather) and I'm not entirely clear on some things.

First off, I think maybe what's being referred to as up-draft vs. down-draft in the cabinet are being used for 2 different things? One for the direction of make-up air and one for the direction of the vac intake? I can't quite get a handle on what the intake and makeup air flow directions are for an updraft vs a downdraft setup.

Second - As near as I can tell, Bill's airflow direction and intake port orientation seem to match what Bill Pentz shows on his site (scroll down for the router table diagram) http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/ducting.cfm#DustHoods
so I think that's another confirmation to go from the side. Plus Bill Pentz caution note on that diagram.

Third - I'm not real clear on the whole makeup air topic at least from what I can see from commercially available ones. Woodpecker's metal cabinet doesn't show any ports or vents for bring air into the box
http://www.woodpeck.com/downdraft.html
I dont really find mention of this on the Pentz site either.

I'm still in the planning stage of a router cabinet under my TS extension and am a bit puzzled on how to set the central cabinet part up.

TIA

Bill Huber
05-10-2009, 6:58 PM
I know this is an older thread but I was recently pointed in this direction by a PM (Thanks Heather) and I'm not entirely clear on some things.

First off, I think maybe what's being referred to as up-draft vs. down-draft in the cabinet are being used for 2 different things? One for the direction of make-up air and one for the direction of the vac intake? I can't quite get a handle on what the intake and makeup air flow directions are for an updraft vs a downdraft setup.

Second - As near as I can tell, Bill's airflow direction and intake port orientation seem to match what Bill Pentz shows on his site (scroll down for the router table diagram) http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/ducting.cfm#DustHoods
so I think that's another confirmation to go from the side. Plus Bill Pentz caution note on that diagram.

Third - I'm not real clear on the whole makeup air topic at least from what I can see from commercially available ones. Woodpecker's metal cabinet doesn't show any ports or vents for bring air into the box
http://www.woodpeck.com/downdraft.html
I dont really find mention of this on the Pentz site either.

I'm still in the planning stage of a router cabinet under my TS extension and am a bit puzzled on how to set the central cabinet part up.

TIA

I am not sure about all the technical stuff, I just know that the way I set my table up works for me. The main reason I started looking for something different was because of the switch problem with the Bosch. When I got to thinking about it I really don't think its that good for any router to pull in all the dust.

I use both top and bottom ports at times some of both and other times just the top or just the bottom. When I am doing a dado I don't use any insert and have all the vac on the bottom. When I am doing an edge profile I try and have a close to ZCI as I can and just use the vac on the fence.

I still get large chips in the bottom and I think that is from the Bosch just blowing them down there, but the dust is not there or very little of it.

I guess if I was going to install a router in the TS I would make the box something like the drawing below. I would have 2 gates so I could control the air flow to where I wanted it.

117964

Gordon Eyre
09-26-2010, 10:20 AM
Intresting discussion. I built Norm's router table a number of years ago and when hooked up to my cyclone dust collector I have not had any problems. It has a dust collection chamber under the table and one at the fence. I have very little dust or shavings that escape and the router motor is fairly clean at all times. About every month or so I blow off the router with my compressor. This has worked well for me over the years. I have a Dewalt router that blows some air out the bit end of the router and does not suck air into the moter. The chamber under the table stays clean except for a minor amount of wood material in the corners.