Pocket Hole Joinery vs Dados

[Ken Stevens]

So, I am designing away on a router stand (see in progress attachment), and I have planned to use pocket hole joinery....but I thought I would ask some opinions here about this vs dado joints.

Do any of you use PHJ and would you use it in an application like this? Why or why not? What about the advantages of dados over the PHJ? Or is just a matter of preference?

Thanks,
Ken

[Jim Becker]

I've switched over to pocket screws and wouldn't go back to dados/grooves at this point unless there was an unusual situation that warranted the extra work. Pocket screws and glue are quite strong and simple butt joints are far easier to size and cut than figuring the extra material to fit into the dados/grooves, etc. Pocket screws are essentially self-clamping after glue-up, too. (with care taken to avoiding racking while the glue fully cures)

[Gary Keedwell]

To be honest, I've used both methods on the same projects.
Gary K.

[Dan Lyman]

I agree pocket screws is the easier way to go and will be strong enough.
If you want the practice/experience then go for the Dado's. My last shop project, a planer stand with drawers, I used pre-finished baltic birch and pocket screws (no glue). Went together quick and I had no finishing to do. It seems plenty sturdy.

For me shop time is hard is hard to come by so this method worked out great. The only downside is the rounded over edges are not finished. I may eventually slap on some poly on the edges when I break it our for something else. Then again, maybe not!

[John Thompson]

The pocket holes would be OK for the router stand as it doesn't have to support much weight. But... on a book-shelf or similar where there are multiple shelves that will be burdened with weight, I prefer dadoes as you get a ton of glue area to secure the shelf to the carcass.

If I used pocket holes on a project as that.. it takes too much time personally for me to cut a pocket.. reset the jig and cut another, etc. etc. If I had say 6 shelves I can cut the 12 dadoes grooves in under 6 minutes once a cut line tick has been laid on the stock. I have sort of a "rapid fire" method to cut dadess with a TS and it is just better and much quicker for "me".

And.. I have a feeling someone is going to question how I can set up and cut 12 dado grooves in under 6 minutes on a TS. If so.. go ahead and ask as the answer is simple. :D

Sarge..

[Art Mann]

Like Jim, I have just about stopped cutting dados for simple cabinet construction. Pocket hole screws are easy to do and they are plenty strong enough. Why do more work for no additional benefit?

[Randall Davis]

And.. I have a feeling someone is going to question how I can set up and cut 12 dado grooves in under 6 minutes on a TS. If so.. go ahead and ask as the answer is simple. :D

Sarge..

if the answer is so simple why dont you just say it? na! forget it i dont care!

[Bruce Benjamin]

The pocket holes would be OK for the router stand as it doesn't have to support much weight. But... on a book-shelf or similar where there are multiple shelves that will be burdened with weight, I prefer dadoes as you get a ton of glue area to secure the shelf to the carcass.

If I used pocket holes on a project as that.. it takes too much time personally for me to cut a pocket.. reset the jig and cut another, etc. etc. If I had say 6 shelves I can cut the 12 dadoes grooves in under 6 minutes once a cut line tick has been laid on the stock. I have sort of a "rapid fire" method to cut dadess with a TS and it is just better and much quicker for "me".

And.. I have a feeling someone is going to question how I can set up and cut 12 dado grooves in under 6 minutes on a TS. If so.. go ahead and ask as the answer is simple. :D

Sarge..

I won't question your ability to set up the dados in that time because, well, whatever. But even if you can do it in half that time you aren't taking into account the glue drying time that requires clamps. Pocket holes may or may not be slower but they save so much time overall because they require little or no clamping. How long do you have to keep your project clamped up before you can move onto the next step? I'll bet it's not faster than a pocket screw and glue joint.

That being said, I don't want to use pocket screws where they are visible when it's anything other than for shop use. To me that's where the dados have a distinct advantage and worth the extra time spent.

Bruce

[Paul Comi]

Stuff like this is what I bought the Festool Domino for. I'm not adverse to using pocket screws and even use them for making functional drawers sometimes since the slots for the screws get concealed by the applied drawer fronts, but I wouldn't rely on pocket screws for load bearing projects that would fail if the glue lost its bond. That's just me.

If the casework you're building is plywood, the strength of your joinery using butt joints reinforced by pocket screws is coming mainly from the glue which can be substantial, but I like either rabbeted dado's or domino's or even biscuits or dowels to add some extra strength.

I don't think there is much I despise more than having to remove the blade from my table saw and install a stacked dado. Before I bought the domino, I made a special sled for dado'ing parts that made it super efficient. But, with the domino, I just find the ability to dry fit parts together and sort of keep adding parts as I go to be really an enjoyable way of working for me. I was definately a doubter, but my dry fit projects are so strong that I can stand on them with confidence that they won't fall apart.

If I was using butt joints to build that router table and didn't have the domino and also didn't want to install the stacked dado, I'd either use a router with an edge guide and cut rabbeted dados or regular dados or I'd pick up some Miller dowels. My .02

[Alex Elias]

I did mine all with dados, and I find it somehow simple. I think (for me) it's easier to aling with dados and bla bla bla. I should use my Creig more often though.
I slip some pictures just in case if this gives you an idea for yours; still need to make the doors and drawer pulls.
Good luck
Alex
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q185/alxe24/Shop/Router-4.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q185/alxe24/Shop/Router-5.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q185/alxe24/Shop/Router-2.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q185/alxe24/Shop/Router-3.jpg

[Brian Hale]

Hey Ken

I use both pocket hole joinery and dadoes as each have benefits and liabilities. For your router table i'd opt for dadoes. A router table doesn't need to support much weight but it does have the racking / twisting forces associated with routing operations and the dadoes will be stronger in that regard. With a little advanced planning you can also use the dado setup for making your face frame pieces at the same time.


I'm assuming your using 3/4" material so all your dadoes will be 3/4 by 3/8 which makes calculating material a snap. Once the dado width is set it's just a matter of moving the fence to the correct distance from the blade and cut away. I find this method much easier to deal with at assembly time since i don't have to worry about pieces shifting around when i drive the screws.

As to your design, may i suggest you move the bottom piece up several inches so you can add leveling feet or casters and keep them hidden from sight. It's also a good place for blocking to add some rigidity to the cabinet. Also, depending on your plans for the large cavity on the bottom, a center partition might add some flexibility with door/shelf/drawer designs down there.

Let us know what you decide and post some pics of the progress!

Brian :)

[Steven Triggs]

For me, each has it's place. Pocket holes are very quick and easy of course, but they do depend on your pieces being well aligned and securely clamped before you drive the screws. If you use dados, they will automatically align your pieces greatly simplifying that part. If you are looking for the speed benefit of not having to clamp and wait for glue, you could cut the dados fairly shallow and then use pocket screws to to put it all together. This way you'd get the alignment benefit of the dados and the speed benefit of the pocket holes. Just be sure to adjust your screw length accordingly so you don't penetratrate the back side.

[Doug Shepard]

I've never gotten more involved with pocket hole joinery beyond a very basic (cheap) jig and a few projects. I just prefer the self-alignment aspect of using dados. The Insert Tab A into Slot B type assembly just seems easier to me.

[glenn bradley]

Dados where extra strength is required and PH for all else for me.

[Michael Lutz]

For dados, the setup takes longer. I went into my recent storage project with the idea of using all pocket screws. I ended up using both, mainly because the cabinets were narrow and the spacing between the shelves didn't allow the ability to get my cordlesss screwdriver in during assembly so I used dados.

Mike

[John Thompson]

I won't question your ability to set up the dados in that time because, well, whatever. But even if you can do it in half that time you aren't taking into account the glue drying time that requires clamps. Pocket holes may or may not be slower but they save so much time overall because they require little or no clamping. How long do you have to keep your project clamped up before you can move onto the next step? I'll bet it's not faster than a pocket screw and glue joint.

That being said, I don't want to use pocket screws where they are visible when it's anything other than for shop use. To me that's where the dados have a distinct advantage and worth the extra time spent.

Bruce

Morning Bruce..

And you are correct about glue time. I did say pocket holes are fine for a router table. Frankly, I probably wouldn't even bother to use pocket holes. Just pre-drill a pilot hole and counter-sink for the screw head..run a narrow glue line.. align the stock and pop the screws in with a 1/2" drill with a phillips head bit. It's just a shop item that is used to produce "show items" as I see it.

And I do agree with you totally that dadoes have a distinct advantage as in the example I mentioned with book-cases that will carry substantial weight. There is a lot of glue area in a dado not to mention the shoulder support on the opposite side of where the weight is placed.

I can cut dadoes very quickly.. accurately and safely as I mentioned as I have created an advantage. I have a dedicated TS I modified and set up just for dadoes for up to 16" wide stock. I just have to line up the tick mark and slide them though. Just something I decided to do when I upgraded my TS I use for ripping and it it definitely has proved to be a time saver and safe approach to dadoes for me.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Don Pierson]

I like PHJ's...the are quick, strong and no-brainers. Given there is a chance you might want to redesign a project you won't have the large dados in the boards when you use PHJ's....the opinion of a novice.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Stuff like this is what I bought the Festool Domino for. I'm not adverse to using pocket screws and even use them for making functional drawers sometimes since the slots for the screws get concealed by the applied drawer fronts, but I wouldn't rely on pocket screws for load bearing projects that would fail if the glue lost its bond. That's just me.

If the casework you're building is plywood, the strength of your joinery using butt joints reinforced by pocket screws is coming mainly from the glue which can be substantial, but I like either rabbeted dado's or domino's or even biscuits or dowels to add some extra strength.

If I was using butt joints to build that router table and didn't have the domino and also didn't want to install the stacked dado, I'd either use a router with an edge guide and cut rabbeted dados or regular dados or I'd pick up some Miller dowels. My .02

I don't think you have it right regarding the strength of pocket hole screws. If you made two identical boxes made with butt joints and attached one using only glue and the other using only pocket hole screws, which one do you think would fail first if you jumped on it? The pocket holes screws are going to be stronger than the glue in a joint using a combination of the two but a combination of the two is even better. Glue in a shelf using only a butt joint and do one with pocket hole screws. Which one will you want to stand on? End grain doesn't glue very well whether you're using solid or plywood. Obviously, the pocket hole screws provide the majority of the strength in a glue/screw combination joint.

I've never used Miller dowels but they're just made of wood, right? How are they stronger than steel screws? Since I've never used them I don't know what their strength is for shear strength or racking resistance. But I doubt that it's more than a steel pocket screw. Could be wrong though I suppose.

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

Morning Bruce..

And you are correct about glue time. I did say pocket holes are fine for a router table. Frankly, I probably wouldn't even bother to use pocket holes. Just pre-drill a pilot hole and counter-sink for the screw head..run a narrow glue line.. align the stock and pop the screws in with a 1/2" drill with a phillips head bit. It's just a shop item that is used to produce "show items" as I see it.

I wasn't saying that I'd only use pocket holes on shop cabinets. I said I'd only use them on shop cabinets when they are going to be visible. They aren't always visible in furniture making.

What's this, "Phillips head bit" you speak of??? I've never heard of such a thing? Are they new? Could you describe this whole process in more detail please? :rolleyes: ;) :D

And I do agree with you totally that dadoes have a distinct advantage as in the example I mentioned with book-cases that will carry substantial weight. There is a lot of glue area in a dado not to mention the shoulder support on the opposite side of where the weight is placed.


I don't see how you can agree with me on this because I never said or implied this at all. The only things I commented on was the visibility of pocket hole screws and the glue drying and the clamp time of a dado joint. I'm not saying I disagree with you. But I gave you nothing for you to agree with regarding the strength of the joints in my last reply to you. I don't think the dado/glue joint has a distinct advantage and I'm not sure that it's even stronger in every situation than a pocket hole screw/glue joint. A dado will probably be stronger for a shelf where the shelf isn't expected to control racking, (pushing straight down only) but I'm not convinced that a dado joint is stronger than a pocket/glue joint in every other situation. Where it is stronger I doubt that it has a, "Distinct advantage" with regards to strength and durability. One think is for certain, when a dado and glue joint fails it fails much more completely than when a pocket hole/glue joint fails. Once the glue or the wood surrounding the glue fails the joint is done. It takes more than that to rip the screw threads from their holes.

There's still a lot I like about a dado and glue joint and I have used them a lot. But I'm not so quick to dismiss the pocket hole screw joint. To each their own. It's unlikely that either of us will be exchanging furniture anytime soon. ;) :)

Bruce

[Jim Dunn]

To be honest, I've used both methods on the same projects.
Gary K.

Me too. Found it easier to use both.

[John Thompson]

Evening Bruce...

"I don't see how you can agree with me on this because I never said or implied this at all"..... Bruce

I went back and re-read your post to clarify as I did mis-interpret it with the initial readind. Sorry.. my error!

*****************

"What's this, "Phillips head bit" you speak of??? I've never heard of such a thing? Are they new? Could you describe this whole process in more detail please"? :rolleyes: ;) :D .. Bruce

Delighted to provide detail:...
The Phillips screw drive has slightly rounded corners in the tool recess, and was designed so the driver will slip out, or cam out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_out), under high torque to prevent over-tightening. The Phillips Screw Company was founded in Oregon in 1933 by Henry F. Phillips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_F._Phillips), who bought the design from J. P. Thompson. Phillips was unable to manufacture the design, so he passed the patent to the American Screw Company, who was the first to manufacture.

I added a picture for visual at the bottom of a phillips head drive bit and a pilot bit with counter-sink. Hopefully that will cover the detail requested..?If not PM and I will send video. :rolleyes: ;) :D

***************


And "I" do feel it has an advantage over just pocket screws when used singular. And of course it's an opinion. You mentioned using a dado when not used to control racking. If I designed something without a face-frame or no backing that assist in racking, I would probably use a dado and a pocket screw.

I don't think I would rely on either singulary to be the main ingredient that countered rack with harsh conditions involved, especially on a large book-case (etc.) that was going to get subjected to heavy weight. Used together.. they would probably (depends) be sufficient, IMO.

Of course, we could just use 16/4 stock and through tenons and then pin them with 3/8" lag screws. That would take all the doubt out.. :D

****************


"To each their own. It's unlikely that either of us will be exchanging furniture anytime soon" ;) :).. Bruce

I couldn't find one point to dis-agree on in that statement as it pretty much "nails" it shut. :)

Regards...

Sarge..

[Jason White]

Jim, I've used pocket screws for face frames, but I don't understand how they're a good choice for assembling cabinet carcasses or drawers (instead of dadoes, etc.).

How are these joints any stronger than butts joints with regular old drywall-type screws? I know that the pocket hole screws are easier to hide, but I don't get how they're any stronger. What am I missing?

JW


I've switched over to pocket screws and wouldn't go back to dados/grooves at this point unless there was an unusual situation that warranted the extra work. Pocket screws and glue are quite strong and simple butt joints are far easier to size and cut than figuring the extra material to fit into the dados/grooves, etc. Pocket screws are essentially self-clamping after glue-up, too. (with care taken to avoiding racking while the glue fully cures)

[Steven Triggs]

How are these joints any stronger than butts joints with regular old drywall-type screws? I know that the pocket hole screws are easier to hide, but I don't get how they're any stronger. What am I missing?

JW

With the pocket hold screws, the end of the screw is penetrating 90 degrees to the grain. If you used regular screws from the opposite side, they'd be penetrating parrallel to the grain. A screw's resistance to pull-out is much greater across the grain than with the grain. Also, when you use the pocket hole method, the screw generally does a very good job of pulling the two pieces tightly together because it is only threading to the second piece, which helps the glue to do a better job. With a "normal" screw installation, the screw likely threads to both pieces, preventing it from pulling them together tightly.

[Gary Keedwell]

By paying close attention to detail while machining dados, I cannot fathom an easier way to assemble a carcass. Add a couple of quick rabbets in the back of both sides and my glue-up literally squares itself up. I always run my stock twice through the dado blade. I start with a stack that is smaller then what I need...measure dado....move fence accordingly....perfect.
It might just be me, but I always thought it a waste of time to get the stack the right size. Maybe it is the machinist in me....:rolleyes: :)
Gary K.

[Greg Funk]

I prefer to use dados since I don't care for the look of pocket screws. Dados make alignment easy and are stronger than pocket screws although that isn't normally an issue. Since I don't make a living in my shop I don't care if it takes a little longer. I like to use dovetails and other time wasting joints in my shop as well...

[Jim Dunn]

Since I don't make a living in my shop I don't care if it takes a little longer. I like to use dovetails and other time wasting joints in my shop as well...

Not to hijack this thread but the above statement applies to me and probably some of the other people here as well. Why not use a more complicated joint that has a learning curve and apply what we've learned for other things.:confused: I think that's the way we teach ourselves. Most of what I do in my shop doesn't have an end user other than myself any way.;)

Any way "on with the show".

[Mike Cutler]

All joints should be planned and selected based on the amount, and direction of force that will be applied to the joint. Any joint that lack it's own mechanical integerity and relies on an adhesive alone will fail, on it's own, in time.
The endgrain to facegrain butt joint is the second weakest joint there is. End grain to end grain butt being the weakest. It relies on the strength of the adhesive property, or the mechaincal strength of the fastener used.

A dado provides a few mechanical functions;

It provides for precise alignment.
It provides shear load strength. ( resistance to force applied 90 degrees to the joint)
It provides axial load strength.(resistance to twisting forces)

The dado by itself is very poor for forces being applied in line with the joint. If you build a freestanding shelf with no backing, or individual shelf supports. Using only dados and rabbets. You have created a reflex parallelogram.
Clamp the structure to a bench and push on the top corner and you will break it very easily. Glued and screwed will make it stronger, but the small amount of leverage applied will break even these joints.

I personally would not use pocket screws alone. The strength is based on the properties of the screw, and the type of wood it's being screwed into. ( I wouldn't use drywall screws at all. They are made from a very brittle material and shear a lot easier than you might think.)

For this project (the shelves, top, and bottom at least). I would dado the shelves, and bottom, rabbett the top, and screw and glue. I would screw from the face side into the dado joint.
A pocket hole jig would provide less that 3/4" of screw engagment in the applicaion of attaching the shelves, top, and bottom to the sides. A screw gets it's mechanical strength from it's length. I'd be using 8-32 , or 10-32 screws,2" long, screwed into the joint.
Build it stout, you won't regret it.



In this project, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=63386 Every joint is a dado joint, that is screwed and glued (epoxied).
The screws were screwed into the dado's from the face side, and wenge plugs cover the screwheads.
The resistance to "racking" forces is provided by the back, which is a combination of individually rabbeted, shiplapped, and dado'd boards.

My vote is Dado, glue, and screw.
Use the pocket hole jig for the face frames.

[Mark Singer]

I use both techniques and each has its place. I have not had any failures with pocket screws. I do like a rabbit on the rear of a cabinet to allow the back panel to set in....this squares the cabinet and adds strength. If your overall cabinet design and construction is thought out , the components all work well to add strength and no individual parts are stressed ....it all works together

[Byron Trantham]

A couple of months ago one of the magazines did a strength test of different joints; biscuit, dowel, butt, dado, pocket hole and I think another one but I can't remember it. They tested shear and pull out. The winner was the dowel with pocket hole marginally less strong. If I can hide it, I use pocket holes.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

All joints should be planned and selected based on the amount, and direction of force that will be applied to the joint. Any joint that lack it's own mechanical integerity and relies on an adhesive alone will fail, on it's own, in time.
The endgrain to facegrain butt joint is the second weakest joint there is. End grain to end grain butt being the weakest. It relies on the strength of the adhesive property, or the mechaincal strength of the fastener used.

A dado provides a few mechanical functions;

It provides for precise alignment.
It provides shear load strength. ( resistance to force applied 90 degrees to the joint)
It provides axial load strength.(resistance to twisting forces)

The dado by itself is very poor for forces being applied in line with the joint. If you build a freestanding shelf with no backing, or individual shelf supports. Using only dados and rabbets. You have created a reflex parallelogram.
Clamp the structure to a bench and push on the top corner and you will break it very easily. Glued and screwed will make it stronger, but the small amount of leverage applied will break even these joints.

I personally would not use pocket screws alone. The strength is based on the properties of the screw, and the type of wood it's being screwed into. ( I wouldn't use drywall screws at all. They are made from a very brittle material and shear a lot easier than you might think.)

For this project (the shelves, top, and bottom at least). I would dado the shelves, and bottom, rabbett the top, and screw and glue. I would screw from the face side into the dado joint.
A pocket hole jig would provide less that 3/4" of screw engagment in the applicaion of attaching the shelves, top, and bottom to the sides. A screw gets it's mechanical strength from it's length. I'd be using 8-32 , or 10-32 screws,2" long, screwed into the joint.
Build it stout, you won't regret it.



In this project, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=63386 Every joint is a dado joint, that is screwed and glued (epoxied).
The screws were screwed into the dado's from the face side, and wenge plugs cover the screwheads.
The resistance to "racking" forces is provided by the back, which is a combination of individually rabbeted, shiplapped, and dado'd boards.

My vote is Dado, glue, and screw.
Use the pocket hole jig for the face frames.

Hi Mike,

You make a lot of sense here. I like PHS but like you I feel they don't engage the second piece of wood with much screw length. I like #8 2.5" screws for assembling shop carcases using glue.

One question: How do you match your dado blade width to your plywood thickness? This is on of the major pains of dadoing to me. Alan

[Gary Keedwell]

Alan, I make my initial dado smaller then what I need. Instead of trying to size my stacked dado to fit the plywood, I measure the undersized dado, Move my fence using a plunge type indicator, and run my stock thru the dado blades again. I usually get it perfect the first time I move the fence. I usually move the fence about .010 bigger then the plywood for variances in the plywood thickness throught the length. I find it faster this way then trying to finesse the thickness of the stacked dado using shims. Yuckkkkkkk:)
Gary K.

[Von Bickley]

I use both techniques and each has its place. I have not had any failures with pocket screws. I do like a rabbit on the rear of a cabinet to allow the back panel to set in....this squares the cabinet and adds strength. If your overall cabinet design and construction is thought out , the components all work well to add strength and no individual parts are stressed ....it all works together

Amen.... I use both techniques also and also use a rabbit for the back of the cabinet.

[Greg Funk]

One question: How do you match your dado blade width to your plywood thickness? This is on of the major pains of dadoing to me. Alan
I used to use shims but then I got a Freud SD608 adjustable dado. One test cut, make an adjustment and you're good to go.

Greg

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Now Greg, You're making me jealous with that adjustable dado stack. :( I could go for one of those someday.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan, I make my initial dado smaller then what I need. Instead of trying to size my stacked dado to fit the plywood, I measure the undersized dado, Move my fence using a plunge type indicator, and run my stock thru the dado blades again. I usually get it perfect the first time I move the fence. I usually move the fence about .010 bigger then the plywood for variances in the plywood thickness throught the length. I find it faster this way then trying to finesse the thickness of the stacked dado using shims. Yuckkkkkkk:)
Gary K.

Gary, That's a great method. I also like to make my dado then adjust the shelf ends to fit. Both work in the end. I'm going to try your idea next time. Alan

[Mike Cutler]

Hi Mike,

You make a lot of sense here. I like PHS but like you I feel they don't engage the second piece of wood with much screw length. I like #8 2.5" screws for assembling shop carcases using glue.

One question: How do you match your dado blade width to your plywood thickness? This is on of the major pains of dadoing to me. Alan

I use Gary Keedwell's method,and then finish with an LN Model 98/99 side rabbet plane as necessary. (This is on solid hardwood )

[glenn bradley]

How are these joints any stronger than butts joints with regular old drywall-type screws? I know that the pocket hole screws are easier to hide, but I don't get how they're any stronger. What am I missing?

JW

The screw adds a mechanical strength, enters at an angle and has a flat surface on the underside of the head that distributes the stress. I have also found dados to be plenty strong and not that much of an issue to use. Like another member mentioned here; I have used both methods on the same carcase.

[glenn bradley]

Not to hijack this thread but the above statement applies to me and probably some of the other people here as well. Why not use a more complicated joint that has a learning curve and apply what we've learned for other things.:confused: I think that's the way we teach ourselves. Most of what I do in my shop doesn't have an end user other than myself any way.;)

Any way "on with the show".

Agreeing with Jim here. I use shop cabinets and fixtures as an excuse to try new skills or practice old ones. It makes it fun. Of course my woodworking doesn't pay any bills and I have that luxury

[Paul Comi]

I don't think you have it right regarding the strength of pocket hole screws. If you made two identical boxes made with butt joints and attached one using only glue and the other using only pocket hole screws, which one do you think would fail first if you jumped on it? The pocket holes screws are going to be stronger than the glue in a joint using a combination of the two but a combination of the two is even better. Glue in a shelf using only a butt joint and do one with pocket hole screws. Which one will you want to stand on? End grain doesn't glue very well whether you're using solid or plywood. Obviously, the pocket hole screws provide the majority of the strength in a glue/screw combination joint.

I've never used Miller dowels but they're just made of wood, right? How are they stronger than steel screws? Since I've never used them I don't know what their strength is for shear strength or racking resistance. But I doubt that it's more than a steel pocket screw. Could be wrong though I suppose.

Bruce

Technically, with plywood which is what I was assuming we were talking about, half of the plies are long grain unlike a solid piece of wood which is long grain on one side and end grain on the other. I like pocket screws where applicable, but aren't the end of those screws penetrating about 3/8" into the panel? Miller dowels or confirmat screw are stronger because its not the screw that breaks, but the tip of the screw pulls out of the panel its screwed into. The miller dowel completely intersects the panel and is glued into it and the rest of the pin is sunk into the adjacent piece being joined. And a confirmat is a coarse thread beefy screw that completely intersects the panel and board in the same way providing a similar effect but without the glue inside the joinery with the exception of the edge to panel seam. This is just me, but the moment I start using screws and nails to do joinery, I'm back into doing carpentry. Since I personally am striving to become a designer and woodworker of furniture, the standard is to form joints using wood and glue.

When I'm not being lazy, the first choice is always to form a joint which inherently has more strength to resist the various forces and a butt joint is the weakest joint of all in traditional woodworking. But, considering how limited time is right now for doing woodworking, I'd probably use a butt joint reinforced by domino tenons first or use dado's second. Also, if the case has a glued on face frame and a well affixed back, thats going to add to the overall integrity of the carcase significantly. With a router table cabinet, there tends to be dividers that add to the vertical support that don't exist in something like a bookcase in which case I'd never rely on pocket screws to hold the top and bottom fixed shelves. We're not building a monument here-this is shop furniture so the main thing is to get it built and start making stuff with it.

[MATT HASSMER]

I'm new here & I'm gonna be building a closet organizer for my wife. I'll be making drawers, shelving, & double closet rods; maybe a raked section with a bead at the bottom for shoes. Would dadoes or pocket holes be better? Any thoughts? :confused:

[Bruce Benjamin]

This is just me, but the moment I start using screws and nails to do joinery, I'm back into doing carpentry. Since I personally am striving to become a designer and woodworker of furniture, the standard is to form joints using wood and glue.

When I'm not being lazy, the first choice is always to form a joint which inherently has more strength to resist the various forces and a butt joint is the weakest joint of all in traditional woodworking. But, considering how limited time is right now for doing woodworking, I'd probably use a butt joint reinforced by domino tenons first or use dado's second.

Obviously the strength of different joints is debatable and as I said in my original post, I could be wrong in my way of thinking. However, I really have never understood the way of thinking that some woodworkers have that I quoted above from your post...I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. I've seen this idea posted many times before. I'm just playing devil's advocate I guess.

I'm not sure what it is about screws and/or nails that you and other woodworkers dislike so much but I can only assume that it has something to do with woodworkers in the past, (100, 200 years ago, etc.) not using screws and nails. It's not, "Traditional", right? Ok, I guess I can see where you're coming from. But nails in some form were used in some older furniture. Screws were either nonexistent or were hand made and very expensive so they were rarely used. They weren't a realistic option and modern brads and the guns that insert them didn't exist either. They didn't use them, "Way back when" because they didn't exist or weren't practical to use.

Before there were any motorized pieces of woodworking equipment they had to do everything by hand with axes, chisels, hand saws, and hand planes. Who on this forum still starts with a tree and ends up with a finished piece of furniture? There may be a few people but not many. Imagine how much fun woodworking was before those hand tools were made from higher quality steel.:rolleyes: I wonder how many of those early woodworkers scoffed at the idea of using the new fangled modern tools being invented.

And then there is the Domino? There isn't anything about that tool that I consider to be more traditional or having more to do with real woodworking than using a pocket screw or a brad nail other than that the tenon is made from a piece of wood. And it's not even a piece of wood you produced. At least when I use my router to make loose tenon joints I have to make the tenon myself. If pocket screws could be made from wood would that make their use less like carpentry and more like woodworking? In my opinion using the Domino is closer to feeding a log into a machine and having it spit out a finished piece of furniture than using a hand drill and a pocket whole jig. At least in terms of the technology involved and the $$ you have to spend to make the joint.

Of course I'm playing devils advocate here. I don't have a problem with any method anyone wants to use to make a finished piece of furniture or a kitchen full of cabinets. I can relate to the idea that a chest of drawers held together using only complex hand-cut joints, (no power tools, please) and good ol' Titebond glue just feels better than pocket screws and brad nails. Hey, wait a minute! Titebond and epoxy is cheating too compared to hide glue or wedged tenons. You might as well be using screws and nails or a Domino when compared to using modern glue with many times the holding power and durability versus hide glue used hundreds of years ago. ;):D

My point being that what some people consider to be real woodworking, (using a Domino, dovetail jig, router, tablesaw, etc.) would be considered cheating and, "Carpentry" by someone 200 or more years ago. Everyone has their own standards of excellence. I gotta say though, I don't see how the Domino fits into anyone's definition of excellence and traditional woodworking. But I'm no wood snob and if someone wanted to give me one I'd sure take it! ;):D I just won't pretend that using one is, "Traditional woodworking".:)

Bruce

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm not sure which joints you are thinking about. Looking at the design in the picture, if the horizontal boards will be supporting weight (ie., are a shelf), then I would go with dados. The lip form between the dado and shelf will support far more weight than pocket screws will every think about. If the horizontal boards are merely dividers and won't support any vertical weight, then go with pocket screws.

[Jim Becker]

I'm new here & I'm gonna be building a closet organizer for my wife. I'll be making drawers, shelving, & double closet rods; maybe a raked section with a bead at the bottom for shoes. Would dadoes or pocket holes be better? Any thoughts?

There is no "better", per se. Pocket screws would be a lot faster and generally easier than grooves, dados and rebates for the carcass construction. That's how I'll be doing the closet-ware for our addition...