Good quality vise hardware??

[Brian Hale]

Getting ready to build my 3rd (but not my last) bench and i'd like some suggestions for good quality vise hardware for trational tail and shoulder vises like the ones on Frank Klausz's bench as seen in the following (stolen) pics

The pics came from http://www.workbenchdesign.net/frankbench.html

Thanks!

Brian :)

[Mike Henderson]

I bought my tail vise hardware from Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31136&cat=1,41659). I can't remember where I got my front vise hardware from but it has the quick in and out feature which is nice - that is, you don't have to crank long distances, you can slide the jaws till you get close then crank to finish. Unfortunately, the tail vise doesn't do that. I don't know anyone who makes tail vise hardware that does that.

Mike

[Oops, I looked at your pictures again and my front vise is not that European shoulder style - it's a traditional "American" vise like this (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=54873&cat=1,41659,41661&ap=1).]

[Eric Hartunian]

I would recommend not building up your tailvise, and instead using the hardware that actually bolts to the bench (it looks like a piece of plate steel, and the sliding part attaches to it). Built up vises, like the one I have, sag very quickly, even when you are careful around them.
Just my opinion,
Eric

[jonathan snyder]

Brian,

I am planning a workbench with a shoulder and tail vise. I purchased the hardware for both vises from LV. I do not have the bench built yet, so I cant comment on the quality of the hardware. I looked really hard at the LN tail vise but just could not afford it. It is welded and looks a bit beefier though.

Good luck with your bench

Jonathan

[Alan Turner]

Brian,

I have built 13 benches, and taught the building of 5 more, all heavy and traditional, and each with a tail vise. I have used a variety of vise hardware kits. The LN large tail vise hardware is superb, and I would now not build a tail vise with any other hardware. We used this in our workbench class at PFW, just completed, with good success.
A built-up tail vise, such as is needed with the Woodcraft or the Lee Valley hardware, is a time consuming PITA, and suffers from a number of actual and potential problems or issues, both in construction and in use. The marginal extra cost of the LN kit is well worth it, IMHO.

The LN kit solves most all of the common tail vise issues. Build an "L", add front and rear blocking and an end cap and you are done. The screw tension can be mechanically set and locked in, and should not vary by the season. You can skip the usual slot in the main bench as well since the mounting plate is held off of the bench enough so that the slot is not needed. That lets you set the mounting plate pretty easily using a very simple rebated set up block, clamped in place. My recall is that the offset is .208" (i.e., if top wood plate is 1", then top of mounting plate is 1.208" below bench top).

One trick in any tail vise project is insuring that it slides absolutely parallel to the bench top, and that involves screwing on the mounting plate in a way which insures that the mounting plate is set parallel to the bench top. We have a full set of 115 drill bits in an index so that we have a bit just the right size to find the center of each hole, and then we drill and tap for a 1/4" x 20 flat head, socket drive machine screw. I have found that the drill bit method is more accurate than using transfer punches since the holes in the plate are not accurately sized. If you will leave a 2" open space behind the front blocking (the actual front vise jaw) then you will not need to use the specialized mounting screws from LN, and the vise will be easily removable for servicing, should that be needed. I have considered redrilling for a 5/16" hole and using a piloted countersink, but have not tried this yet. The socket drive machine screws are far more accurately sized and the screww threads centered to the angled head than any wood screws I have found. I seem to recall you can get these in a Grade 8, and that may be the standard. When tapping wood, just use a cordless drill and a No. 7 bit. Pick up an undercut, 6" long, HSS tap. MSC, McMaster, etc. They will also have the screws, which are not a normal hardware store item.

Also, the 2-3 TPI of the lead screw is a great feature as it saves a ton of time when you need to crank it in or out. Frank Klaus jokes that he dreams of an electric tail vise to avoid just this issue.

Any questions, feel free to be in touch. I enjoy workbench construction.

[Brian Hale]

Thanks Guys!!!

Alan, I think you pushed me towards the LN vise. While i don't own any of their tools they do have a strong reputation for quality goods so i think it a safe choice. Most importantly i value your experience and input!

I noticed on the Policies page of your site that you chose to go with a "Record" style front vise. I'm still a bit unsure of which style to go with so if you have any thoughts on this topic you'd like to share i'd greatly appreaciate it.

This bench will serve as both an assembly and hand tool bench so i'm looking to build it a bit lower than normal, somewhere around 32" (i'm 5'6").

I'm sure i'll have more questions when the vises and top arrive.

Thanks

Brian :)

[jonathan snyder]

Brian,
A built-up tail vise, such as is needed with the Woodcraft or the Lee Valley hardware, is a PITA, is time consuming, and suffers from a number of actual and potential problems or issues, both in construction and in use. The marginal extra cost of the LN kit is well worth it, IMHO.

The LN kit solves most all of the tail vise issues. Build an "L", add front and rear blocking and an end cap and you are done. The screw tension can be mechanically set and locked in, and should not vary by the season. You can skip the usual slot in the main bench as well since the mounting plate is held off of the bench enough so that the slot is not needed. That lets you set the mounting plate pretty easily using a very simple rebated set up block, clamped in place.

Any questions, feel free to be in touch. I enjoy workbench construction.

Alan,

Having never seen the LN hardware, I'm having a hard time understanding how it differs form the LV hardware. I have the LV tailvise, but the LN pictures just aren't doing it for me. I realize the LN hardware is welded and a bit beefier. Can you please explain the differences. I thought all hardware required a "built-up" vise. If you had some pictures of the two, during construction and installed, that would be much appreciated. I looked at the LN vise, but at twice the cost, I opted for the LN. Perhaps I made a mistake! I have not begun construction yet, but plan to start on the base this winter.

Thanks

Brian, Hope I'm not hijacking your thread!!

Jonathan

[Chris Friesen]

I realize the LN hardware is welded and a bit beefier. Can you please explain the differences. I thought all hardware required a "built-up" vise.

It looks like with the LN hardware you just need a top piece and a front piece for the moving block. The wood just bolts to the vice hardware. You could leave the bottom of the hardware exposed and it wouldn't affect the functionality.

With the LV hardware I believe you need to accurately inset the top and bottom plates into the wood...the wood itself acts somewhat as a support to keep the plates aligned.

[Alan Turner]

Thanks Guys!!!

Alan, I think you pushed me towards the LN vise. While i don't own any of their tools they do have a strong reputation for quality goods so i think it a safe choice. Most importantly i value your experience and input!

I noticed on the Policies page of your site that you chose to go with a "Record" style front vise. I'm still a bit unsure of which style to go with so if you have any thoughts on this topic you'd like to share i'd greatly appreaciate it.

This bench will serve as both an assembly and hand tool bench so i'm looking to build it a bit lower than normal, somewhere around 32" (i'm 5'6").

I'm sure i'll have more questions when the vises and top arrive.

Thanks

Brian :)

Brian,

We went with a 7" Lee Valley quick action vise. The length of the student benches at PFW is just under 5.5 feet as the "classroom" width of our space is set by a steel column which is centered at 30' off of the front window wall, so we had to hold the bench length to accommodate 3 across. These are not record style as they do not have the "trigger" release. I am not sure of the exact mechanism as it is covered by a steel plate. They work just "OK". We did put record style vises in classroom No. 2, and used Shopfox from Grizzly, again in a 7" size.

The LN quick action front vise is what I call a gravity drop half nut, which means that a 1/2 turn counterclockwise releases the threads, and the front jaw just pushes out or in freely. This was the mechanism used on the older Richards Wilcox vise, and a configuration which I prefer. However, Mario strongly prefers the trigger style which Record used. This is quite personal, of course. My reasoning is that with the gravity drop half nut, I can use both hands to hold stock, my hip to close the vise, and my knee to begin the tightening process. Occasionally one needs this flexibility. Taste has no friends, of course. If it is the Record style you prefer, then Joel at Tools for Working Wood in NY has the Anant, which is a good looking unit, based up the Record design (and patterns, if I recall correctly).

As to bench height, if you are using a sled foot design, then you might want to go even shorter as you can use a second pair of feet, or blocking on the 4 corners, to adjust the height up. But, of course, you cannot lower it.

Good luck.

[Alan Turner]

Alan,

Having never seen the LN hardware, I'm having a hard time understanding how it differs form the LV hardware. I have the LV tailvise, but the LN pictures just aren't doing it for me. I realize the LN hardware is welded and a bit beefier. Can you please explain the differences. I thought all hardware required a "built-up" vise. If you had some pictures of the two, during construction and installed, that would be much appreciated. I looked at the LN vise, but at twice the cost, I opted for the LN. Perhaps I made a mistake! I have not begun construction yet, but plan to start on the base this winter.

Thanks

Jonathan

Jonathan,

Chris has it right. With the LN, you get a plate, which screws to the edge of the bench top, but is held off the bench top by abut 1/2" by welded straps, through which it is screwed on. You then get a "cage" which is three sided, welded, with the "middle" side being the three welded straps, again about 1/2" steel with holes, through which you screw the cage to the "L" shaped wood assembly. This cage has two groves which slide on the top and bottom edges of the mounting plate. These welded straps substitute for the wood needed in the LV hardware. Since there is no wood which holds the two sliding sections in place, but instead the welded straps, there is no change in size, winter to summer, and no need for seasonal adjustment. It is quite stout. This "cage" greatly simplifies the construction of the wood part of the tail vise.

My earlier post explains our method of screwing both the plate and the cage to the bench top and the wood assembly.

[Mike Henderson]

Alan - Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I appreciate your opinion of the various choices out there (even though I've already bought my vise hardware).

Mike

[Peter Tremblay]

hello all

this is my first post but i have been a member for a while so that i could see the pics on here:)

i have a question: ive been thinking about vise hardware myself and one vise that seems like it has a load of potential but is rarely mentioned is the lie nielsen chain drive shoulder vise. it looks like their version of the twin screw. now my question is does anyone have this and how does it work. the site has a comment that all shoulder vises need stop block to prevent racking. is this a problem since it has two screws.

i was thinking of possibly using this because i wanted a vise that did not rack. any thoughts

peter

[jonathan snyder]

Alan - Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I appreciate your opinion of the various choices out there (even though I've already bought my vise hardware).

Mike


What Mike said! Thanks for the info Alan. I may rethink my decision to use the LV hardware, unfortunately its already sitting in the shop.

Thanks to Chris too.

Jonathan

[Jim Newman]

Brian, I bought the Gebruder-Busch Tail Vise hardware from our local Woodcraft on Cromwell Bridge Rd. about 3 or 4 years ago. When Lie-Nielsen started offering their hardware about a year ago, I called them and asked about the differences as the hardware looked the same. They told me they use the exact same Gebruder-Busch Hardware but weld the top and bottom plates together themselves as Alan said. They also said, if you use good stable wood, it was not worth changing hardware from what I had to theirs as it is basically the same. I bought some padauk to act as the spacer and build the vise several years ago. It has been very stable over that time,so feel comfortable with it. However, if I had a choice again, I would buy the Lie-Nielsen Tail Vise Hardware.

Excellent directions on how to assemble the the unaltered Gebruder-Busch tail vise hardware (like I have from Woodcraft) are given in Fine Woodworking April 2003, issue No. 162, pages 50-56. I also received instructions with the vise from Woodcraft on how to make the "End" vise assembly, publication 77A41, but the write up referenced above in Fine Woodworking by John Leppo has helped me the most. As far as the front vise, I bought 2 Record 52 1/2 D vises many years ago and plan to use at least one as the front vise, but maybe both about 24 inches apart per Larry King's Bench on page 69 in The Workbench. Also in Making Workbenches by Sam Allen are good directions as well. BTW I have to add what a great job Sam Allen did in this book. It does not have fancy pictures or go into a lot of different styles of benches, but if you want a great bench to build and use, this is a great book....and I own the other 2 Workbench books I mention here as well!!! Another place to look is The Workbench Book by Landis which describes the Fortune-Nelson version of the tail vise. I also have a Lee Valley Twin Screw I will also put on the end so I can use the whole bench to clamp with and use the tail vise in its normal postion to overcome wracking for handplaing with the Twin Screw. Since we live within 25 minutes of each other, if you want to take a look at any of the vise hardware, give me a call.