Panel Doors - Router or Table Saw?

[Ken Stevens]

I have never made a panel door. I am planning to do so. From those who have, which approach do you use for dados in stiles and tenons in rails.....router or table saw? Can you elaborate and tell why (pros and cons, etc).

Thanks,
Ken

[Bill Huber]

I use mitered corners and use the DowelMax for them.

For me at this point in my woodworking it is very easy to do and for a door it is as strong as needed. I put 2 dowels in each corner.
I also like the mitered look over some of the others.

[Jim Becker]

Normally, I use a router table for the grooves in the edge of stock when they are stopped, but in my current vanity project I used the table saw due to the "unconventional" .30" groove width. I was able to do them in one pass that way, although stopped grooves are a little more touchy to do on the table saw. See the pictures in post #42 on page three of my project thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56649&page=3).

For tongue and groove/straight coped panel frames, I used to tend to use the table saw since they are all continuous cuts and it's very easy to do. Now that I've moved to a sliding table saw and make less use of the rip fence, the router table would be just as easy and will likely be my method of choice.

[Charlie Plesums]

If a customer wants a very plain rail and stile like the ones below, I cut the groove with a stopped cut on the table saw (the riving knife has to come out), and use a floating tenon to join the rails and stiles.

But if I want a more traditional door, get a rail and stile set of cutters for your router table or shaper (they are too big to use in a hand router). A door set (with a panel raiser) will cost $100 or more, but is a worthwhile investment. (I tried to live without one for a long time... when I finally gave in and bought one, I wish I had acted sooner!)

[Matt Meiser]

It sounds like you want them plain--i.e. Shaker Style? I've done them three ways--table saw, router table with straight cutting bits and purpose-made router bit sets. I found the router bit set a little easier to set up, but you are limited on panel thickness. Since I was using 1/4" ply for the panels and used a bit set intended for that it was pretty good, but it was a little thick in spots making for a tight fit. If you need to size the rails to panels (like Jim's veneered panels) the sets won't work. Unless someone makes an adjustable bit set I'm not aware of? The other two ways are about equal in terms of setup. I try to design out stopped cuts where I have to drop the piece onto the bit/blade because it scares me. (Once bitten...) Going to a point and stopping while I kill power isn't as scary to me.

For raised panels, I've made all mine on the router table, even if they are a straight bevel. No particular reason why.

[Lee Schierer]

I generally use lap joints for the corners and cut the grooves on the table saw by raising the blade up into the work and tehn lowering the blade once I reach the other end of the cut to achieve blind grooves. I have illustrated directions for making the raised panels at my website Raised Panels on a TS (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/raisedpanel.html) using a combination of router and table saw.

[Bill Hylton]

I found the router bit set a little easier to set up, but you are limited on panel thickness....If you need to size the rails to panels (like Jim's veneered panels) the sets won't work. Unless someone makes an adjustable bit set I'm not aware of?

Amana Tool makes sets they call "InStile" that allow you to adjust the groove width (and the thickness of the stub tenon). For 1/4" plywood, you can adjust the groove width from 3/16" to 9/32". For 1/2" ply, the groove width adjusts between 7/16" and 17/32". Available in several profiles.

Not cheap, but they are unique.

www.amanatool.com (http://www.amanatool.com) is the web addy.

Bill

[Bill Hylton]

Several good approaches have been suggested. I don't know what sort of tooling you have available. And you didn't specify what the panels will be--plywood, solid wood, raised, etc.

I'd suggest using a slip joint (a.k.a. an open mortise-and-tenon). I used them for doors years ago, when the only power tool I had was a table saw. You need a table-saw tenoning jig, which is very easy to make (and I want to point out that both Frank Klausz and Glen Huey--famous woodworkers!--use really beat looking shopmade tenoning jigs).

Saw the panel grooves in both rails and stiles end-to-end (not stopped).

Use the tenoning jig to saw tenons on the rails. Length of the tenons matches the width of the frame stock. Tenon thickness matches groove width.

Adjust tenon jig position to saw slots in the stiles for the tenons. Be sure to reduce the blade height for the slots, so the slots are only as deep as the tenon width (it's the stock width minus the groove depth).

The current issue of Woodworker's Journal has an article I wrote about building a kid-scale stepback cupboard. I used slip joints for the cupboard's three doors. There're photos of cutting the joint in the article.

Good luck, however you opt to build your doors.

Bill

[Josiah Bartlett]

I haven't done a huge number of them, but I prefer making the rails and stiles on the router table and raising the panels with the table saw. It is pretty easy to make a panel raising sled that slides on your miter fence, and it is easy to get rapid and consistent results with the saw.

I find the panel raising bits on the router table to be scary to use and slow compared to the saw. The saw is very adjustable.

[Ed Jolin]

I will second Jim's comment that stopped dadoes are a bit "touchy to do on the tablesaw".

IMO, this is a bit more of an advanced procedure that should be thought out carefully, as the method of safely controlling the workpiece is somewhat different when lowering onto the blade and starting/stopping midcut vs. pushing all the way through in a normal cut (btw, Jim shows a great pic of the beginning of the operation, and I suspect he also has a stop behind his work - it could be a bit misleading because his hands are blocking the view of it in the pic). It might be interesting in another thread to explore proper and safe techniques for this type of procedure if you choose to try it and/or are unfamiliar with it.

My reason for caution is that this operation was the only time (to date) I have landed in the ER. Fortunately, I left with everything intact. Long story short, after pushing the piece through to the stop point, my hand was behind the blade (mistake) supporting the stationary piece; it kicked forward and pulled my fingertips through the blade. As with most accidents, by adjusting my procedure it would have been preventable.

Work safe and stop and think about any operations that make you nervous.

-Ed

[Jim Becker]

Ed, I didn't have a stop behind the piece (this time) but have done it in the past when the cut was more substantial. Since these were very shallow cuts (1/4" deep and only .30" wide) and I had good leverage on the workpiece with both the fence and feather boards, I didn't have too much concern with the material kicking back...it was fully controlled on both sides and the top. The feather board acted somewhat as a guard at the blade location and the slight lift at the end of the cut wasn't done with my hand behind the piece; rather it was with my thumb on the outer , top corner of the workpiece. I did everything very slowly! And honestly, I'd normally do these grooves with the router table, but the unique width of the grooves would have required multiple setups...it was just easier to use the TS this time around.

[Ken Stevens]

Many thanks for all the suggestions and comments. My apologies for not being more specific. My first attempts will be for small doors on a router or utility stand, so no furniture (for the upstairs :) ) involved. The open-mortise-and-tenon approach mentioned by Bill H. is sort of what I had in mind.

I am puzzled by Bill's comment: "Length of the tenons matches the width of the frame stock." Picturing it in my mind, I would think the length of the tenons would equal the groove depth, but I clearly must have a garbled mental picture.

Ken

[Bill Hylton]

Ken,

I cut a quick slip joint this afternoon and shot some photos of it open and closed. If I've done it correctly, there will be a couple of photos attached.

What you describe in your last post is what I'd call a groove and stub tenon. Using that joint would save you a step, in that you wouldn't have to cut the deep slots in the stiles. Perfectly serviceable joint, but it wouldn't be as strong as the slip joint.

If you are using plywood for the panel, you can glue it into the panel grooves, reinforcing the entire assembly. This is true whether you're using a groove-and-stub tenon or a slip joint.

Bill

[glenn bradley]

Many thanks for all the suggestions and comments. My apologies for not being more specific. My first attempts will be for small doors on a router or utility stand, so no furniture (for the upstairs :) ) involved. The open-mortise-and-tenon approach mentioned by Bill H. is sort of what I had in mind.

I am puzzled by Bill's comment: "Length of the tenons matches the width of the frame stock." Picturing it in my mind, I would think the length of the tenons would equal the groove depth, but I clearly must have a garbled mental picture.

Ken

I like the look of the slip or 'bridle' joint. I've used it on shop cabinets and furniture pieces. Not as strong as a full motrise and tenon but doesn't have to be for door frames. I've even done them in MDF for shop cabs and no failures after a couple years of daily shop use.

[Ken Stevens]

The stub tenon and groove method is what I had in mind when I asked the question about the length of the tenon. Thanks for the amplification. I found an article on it in ShopNotes V#5, and the article was emphatic about two points: a) use a mfg panel not solid wood because of wood movement and glue the panel into the groove, and b) there must be a slip fit between the panel and the sides of the groove.

I have two further questions: if you use full open tenons instead of stub tenons, can you get away with not gluing the panel into the grooves (I hear you Bill that gluing reinforces the entire assembly)? I am assuming that routing (or dadoing) the grooves could be done more quickly/easily if there does not have to be a "slip fit".

Second question: I have some 1/4 birch plywood to try as a panel and it is warped (curved in one plane). Will the stresses in the panel distort the frame if I "force" it to fit? How the heck do you get a piece of 1/4 plywood and have it flat? Can you moisten a panel and bend it in the opposite direction to attempt to flatten it?

Thanks,

Ken

[Jim Becker]

Ken, I don't glue my panels in. I might pin them center top and bottom to keep them from flapping (some folks use space balls or similar), but no glue. Personal preference. Gluing would also be harder since I partially pre-finish panels before inserting them in the grooves and finalizing the door assembly.

[Bill Hylton]

Ken,

Let me reverse the order of your questions to answer.

Quarter-inch plywood is seldom flat, in my experience, and I doubt there's anything you can do to flatten it. But it won't be a problem if housed in a frame, like a door frame. It's not going to twist the frame.

The frame itself must be flat. If a rail or stile is bowed or twisted, you won't have a flat door.

Door joinery: Cope-and-stick joinery that's used universally for doors is just groove-and-stub-tenon with a profile. The cope of the profile adds a skoche of glue area, but it's primarily end grain to long grain, so it isn't adding much strength to the assembly. The majority of doors constructed with such joinery have solid-wood raised panels, which aren't glued to the frame and which expand and contract seasonally. So the upshot would be that you should be able to construct a door frame without a profile, join the parts with groove-and-stub tenons, and NOT glue the panel in place.

With the construct you envision, you can increase the groove depth, which would require an increase in tenon length, which would strengthen the joint. Most cope-and-stick bits cut a 3/8"-deep groove. With a groove-and-stub-tenon, you could cut the grooves 1/2" deep.

Not sure why you'd avoid gluing the plywood panel into the frame. Are you concerned about achieving a slip fit for the plywood? The nice thing about doing this on the table saw is that you can adjust the groove width to accommodate the plywood, which invariably is less than 1/4". Even if the plywood is a little loose in the groove, you can glue it.

More important is to have a good fit between the tenons and the groove.

Go ahead and give 'er a try. You can do it!

Bill

[Ken Stevens]

Great advice. Regarding not gluing in the panel---this would permit less precision in achieving a "slip fit" between panel and groove.

Several days away from trying one....

Thanks.

[John Petsche]

Great tips

[Rod Sheridan]

Ken, I don't own a router, however here's the similar approach using a shaper.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210585-Making-Tenons-on-the-Shaper&p=2184896#post2184896

Regards, Rod.