Handsaws: Expensive = sharper longer??

[Andrew Browne]

Hi. I occasionally use a handsaw for small tasks where it's not worth the trouble to get out the power tools.

The inexpensive handsaws I find at Home Depot (~ $15.) are wonderfully sharp and work well for this. But they're dull after only about a year of occasional use.

These handsaws are so inexpensive that it's easier to just replace them than get them sharpened, but I hate tossing the old ones.

MY QUESTION FOR YOU FOLKS: If I buy an expensive handsaw, does that mean it will stay sharp longer? Or does the money go to pay for other improvements in the saw?

Thank you very much.

[David Weaver]

One thing you'll get is an appropriate polish in the blade if you spend for a better saw.

May be harder, may not, but hopefully some of the dollars mean that more thought is given to use steel that holds an edge reasonably well AND is reasonably easy to sharpen.

Take Bob Smalser's advice and get a couple of Disston D-8s, some files and a sawset. Nothing bad - in terms of the quality of woodwork - can come from getting a saw that was made when handsaws were important, learning the sharpening geometry and doing it.

EDIT: I should add - I've gotten 4 D-8s and a D-23 or something of that sort in the last year, and all were $15 or less, 3 were razor sharp when I got them, and the others all had teeth in good condition. They feel so much better than a BORG saw with a brushed steel finish and they're more trade-able or resalable.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

A western-style saw from pre WWII will get you several things a Borg saw will not.

Main thing is it can be resharpened--and that by yourself with but little instruction available via Bob Smalser's, Vintage Saw's, or Leif Hanson's excellent instruction. Lee Valley has now starting selling Tom Law's DVD on hand saw sharpening, Tools for Working Wood and Lie-Nielsen also carry it.

The Borg saws have hardened teeth and cannot be resharpened easily. They are made to toss when dull.

A well sharpened western-style hand saw used infrequently will not get dull in a year. In fact I would be surprised if it did in 5 years, used infrequently.

On the other hand, should usage pick up, they are easily resharpenable. Of new hand saws made today that are resharpenable, few are made with as hard of steel as pre-WWII vintage saws. So they need resharpened more frequently...but again, with little instruction that is something you can do that only takes minutes once learned.

Vintage saws are available via vintage tool dealers and eBay, which is the cheapest source. Unless you wish to rehab saws, go for ones from reputable eBay sellers who clean and sharpen the saws properly (they are few and the saws go for more). If you don't mind potentially spending an afternoon cleaning and learning to sharpen, just look for one with lot's of life left in it.

Take care, Mike

[Greg Crawford]

Have to agree with above. I have a new Stanley and an old Atkins. The Atkins is very dull in the middle, and even in the dull spots, cuts better than the Stanley. The Atkins isn't even one of their best, as it isn't taper ground, and I believe it was made in the 50s. Tuesday brown should deliver a couple of good Disstons and a couple of good Atkins to my door. It's almost like waiting for Santa Clause when I was a kid. Was? HA!

Greg

[lowell holmes]

In Houston, Circle Saw will sharpen an old Disston for 3-4 dollars. You will have to stone the sides of the teeth lightly to get rid of burrs they leave.
After you do that you will love the saw.
I had them convert a 10tpi cross cut (60's Craftsman) and I know what Tage Frid meant with his advice.
I have an old Disston 10tpi cross cut saw I value highly as well.

[Mark Singer]

There is a very big difference in performance. If you want accurate cutting and joinery you need a decent saw.....some new ones are good and most old ones are if they were quality to start with. Old ones are often bent and that is not a good thing!

[harry strasil]

I use older preferably Antique saws exclusively, and they are a dream to use. Hardly ever need a touch up sharpening as Mike states.

I believe Henry Disston stated once that one of his saws sharpened correctly needed no more than 3 or 4 strokes to go thru a 2by4 and that was in the day when they were a full 2 by 4 and old growth lumber. I have a lot of fun with woodworkers when I do demoes of mid 1800's woodworking by letting them use an old Disston that I filed pug tooth so it cuts just as fast or faster on the pull stroke than it does on the push stroke.

The old adage that the memory of poor quality lasts much longer than low price is true, especially with WW tools.

The other old adage is you get what you pay for.

I ran a one man Blacksmith, Welding and Machine shop for many years and I always bought the best tools I could get from merchants that were good about having spare parts and good repair service if needed. Although with quality tools you seldom need them repaired or replaced.

As an example my father and uncle used to buy 2 tailed small hand drills a year, I bought a Sioux 3/8 hand drill 30 + years ago and it is still going strong today although I have had to replace the cord several times and a set of brushes.

Buy Quality and just use them forever when it comes to tools.

[Jim Nardi]

They make decent scrapers. Good to practice sharpening on. Personally I use a cheap saw I bought at LV that has Japanese teeth on a western style saw. Cuts quick and stays sharp for years now.

[Andrew Browne]

I am both surprised and delighted by the careful advice here.

Not only has my question been answered, but I have a MUCH better overview of the situation with "disposable" modern saws. (If it's inexpensive to buy and cannot be reused--i.e., resharpened--I think that qualifies as disposable.) And, certainly, the way I'll go about buying saws will change, too.

As an aside, this was my first question posted on the Sawmill Creek forums. And I am genuinely at a loss to understand how it happens that you guys take such care with your prose when you contribute to a thread! I've benefited from excellent advice received from the members of other (non-Sawmill Creek) forums, but I've also always been the guy who talks too much. No joking here; I've been scolded many times for my too-lengthy contributions.

I might speculate that the care and the focus required for successful woodworking are personal characteristics that you bring to the craft rather than skills that are learned. I might further speculate that such personal characteristics might naturally show up in other areas of your lives--such as typing contributions to the forum. But I'm not about to mention any of that anywhere else!

I am very pleased with what I've learned from you folks.

Thank you kindly.

[Bob Smalser]

I believe Henry Disston stated once that one of his saws sharpened correctly needed no more than 3 or 4 strokes to go thru a 2by4 and that was in the day when they were a full 2 by 4 and old growth lumber.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/276069204.jpg

Like many toolmakers of his era, there were times when Mr. Disston was amazingly accurate...even prescient, and other times when he told equally amazing whoppers. You can spend a lifetime learning which is which.

Granted I'll never be the filer he must have been, but in the late 1800's many buildings in East Coast and Midwest areas served by rail lines were being framed with old-growth Longleaf and Slash Pine @ 15 rings per inch and better from Florida and Georgia. SYP is the only "softwood" framing lumber I can think of even nastier to cut than my roughsawn, airdried-8-years, 9rpi, shade-grown, slashgrain Doug Fir shown above. And while the difference between an A+ filer and a C- filer might be worth two or three strokes, it definitely ain't worth 10. ;)

[Jeffrey Larsen]

I appreciate this thread--it has been most instructive. I have about 10 old saws now that I have waiting in the wing until I can get the right files to get them sharpened.

Most are disston. some sandvik and some atkins.

Some of the sandviks appear about new and cut rather well. I am glad I read the thread, because it have been most distressed regarding old vs new saws with regards to cut speed. I rescnetly bought a Stanly "sharp tooth 9 point." It cuts through all normal wood like butter. Great bang for the buck with my 4 year old son to cut soft-wood 2 X 4s--dont worry about him bending it and he can actually get through one on his own.

This saw cost about 17$, I think. I have found it to be the saw I go to for most of my rough projects--building workbenches for the kids, shelves, racks, etc. Have been down in that I thought it would be difficult to mess with the old saws given a cheap new one that is this good. The thread has inspired me to a different perspective--thanks for the original post and the answers to the same.

Jeff

[Bob Smalser]

Some of the sandviks appear about new and cut rather well.

If used every day, no saw has an unlimited life, as many hard-used saws were sharpened every day of almost every day and only lasted a year or two. When Disston was going down the tubes in the early 1960's, a number of yards who used to buy D-7's and D-8's by the dozen switched to Sandvik and never looked back. One of the best handsaws available then.

Here's an interesting one:

http://i4.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/b3/35/ddbd_1.JPG

http://i23.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/b3/35/da3d_1.JPG