Saw Files - Where to Get?

[David Weaver]

Is there anywhere on the internet that has a full complement of Nicholson's saw files? I can't find anyone who has all of them, Lie Nielsen's probably has the most, but they're not exactly competitive on price.

McMaster Carr has a bunch, but I don't know what brand, and they say one size in one window, but when you add them to your cart, they're off a taper. I.e., when you view a X slim taper file, that's what it is, but when you click on it to add it to the cart, then it's a slim taper.

[lowell holmes]

I've ordered them from both Lee Valley and Highland Hardware. The have the xx slim files. I use a 4" xxs taper on my Lie Nielsen saws.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Is there anywhere on the internet that has a full complement of Nicholson's saw files? I can't find anyone who has all of them, Lie Nielsen's probably has the most, but they're not exactly competitive on price...
Ln sells Grobet, a better file than Nicholsons. Pete Taran (Vintage Saws) sells Bahco, also a better file.

But Nicholsons are fine, especially for non day-in, day-out work. The Best Things has Nicholsons, as does Lee Valley and Tools for Working Wood. My local Ace Hardware does as well.

Take care, Mike

[Joel Moskowitz]

Mike,
FYI, Most of what we sell are Grobet. We used to stock Nicholsons , and we may have one or two left but we switched to Grobet made in Switzerland files, NOT the Grobet made in India files.

joel

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Mike,
FYI, Most of what we sell are Grobet. We used to stock Nicholsons , and we may have one or two left but we switched to Grobet made in Switzerland files, NOT the Grobet made in India files.

joel
Thanks for the info, Joel.

Last files I bought from you were Nicholsons and so assumed you still did. Looking at the enlarged picture of the saw files on the TFWW site, they say (country of origin) Italy. Stale picture I assume.

It would be good to indicate the maker on the website. Grobet are the best files I've used (especially the NOS I have bought). If there is a mix of maker for the files, it would be beneficial to indicate which are made by whom.

fwiw, some of the LN are also Nicholsons, but I forget which are which. I just pulled the boxes out. Same advice goes to Tom--we as consumers should know without needing to ask.

Take care, Mike

[Tony Zaffuto]

Been suggesting that suppliers post "country of origin" for sometime. I beleive this would help those catalog houses, such as Lee Valley, TFFW, LN and so on, that stand behind their products with very generous return policies.

This because these type of suppliers pay attention to the goods they sell (they have to, to prevent the junk from coming back), regardless of where they are made (and this implies that quality goods are made in countries other than the US).

I have no issue with a global economy, its just that I beleive we all need to "play on a level playing field". All blame can't be put on the shoulders of the foreign manufacturers because it is the domestic importer that sets the parameters for the products coming into this country. I have no issue with those catalogs that sell Groz, Anant etc., because the descriptions include where the tools are made and it is up to the consumer to decide if they will order these tools. Contrary to advertising where goods come from, I ordered a Norton 60X white wheel several months ago, from MSC. It was/is advertised as a premium wheel. Upon delivery and review of the label, it was made somewhere in South America.

Sorry about the Sunday morning rant, probably haven't had enough coffee yet, and being an American manufacturer and supplier to the domestic automotive business, I'm overly sensitive to imports.

T.Z.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Thanks for the info, Joel.

Last files I bought from you were Nicholsons and so assumed you still did. Looking at the enlarged picture of the saw files on the TFWW site, they say (country of origin) Italy. Stale picture I assume.

It would be good to indicate the maker on the website. Grobet are the best files I've used (especially the NOS I have bought). If there is a mix of maker for the files, it would be beneficial to indicate which are made by whom.

fwiw, some of the LN are also Nicholsons, but I forget which are which. I just pulled the boxes out. Same advice goes to Tom--we as consumers should know without needing to ask.

Take care, Mike

You are right on all counts - it's a very old picture. I will get it changed.

[David Weaver]

Thanks for the help guys. I read the posts quickly and ordered from Vintage Saws, which I had assumed was Joel's. Read too fast - I'll get it right next time.

[Bob Smalser]

Simonds also makes a very good file, as does Sonderhome in Sweden.

Simonds files can be purchased at Tacoma Screw, Munnell & Sherrill in Portland, 503-287-4950,and from Stellar Industrial in Everett WA on line at:

http://www.stellarindustrial.com

Over the decades I've used some very good files made in India, but never any made in China. Once you get past the quantum leap between Harbor Freight and Nicholson, the issue becomes price as a file is only good for 2-4 sharpenings. Creating a commercial account and buying by the dozen is the most economical and although I have a business license, I've never had a jobber ask so see it, only for my credit references. At Tacoma Screw for example, a commercial account gets you at least a 10% price break immediately.

Ebay has some NOS leftovers from hardware store closures in odd sizes, cheap. Don't be afraid to buy those either. If you have some experience aligning the file, a 3" Regular Taper file substitutes well for a 4" and 5" Slim and a 6" Extra Slim, and when you get them for $.50 each delivered to your door, you can afford the pleasure of more frequent file changes. Few things are as nice as nice as cutting with a fresh file.

[harry strasil]

Mike, I have to use a needle file to touch up my 19 and 16 tooth saws, is there a regular file for working these small teeth?

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Harry,

A 4" double extra slim will do the 16 ppi very well. For above 17 ppi I use a 2" Nicholson mostly. The Best Things carry them. The 2" are spendy at about $14 each.

Tools for Working Wood lists needle files, but I don't know what they are and are a few dollars less.

The issue is how tight the arris--the edges--of the files are. Too large an edge radius and the teeth are formed smaller and so are less tall. Taller teeth are better as they carry away more saw dust enabling faster sawing.

Take care, Mike
back to worky...

[Joel Moskowitz]

Mike, I have to use a needle file to touch up my 19 and 16 tooth saws, is there a regular file for working these small teeth?

We started carrying a Swiss made Grobet Swiss Needle file for sharpening out 18pt dovetail saws. It made a huge difference. First it's a longer file so you get a nice controlled stroke, but also needle files have much less of a flat between file faces than a 4" xx - so your gullets go deeper and the quality of the result is a world of difference. With a 4"xx a 18pt saw cuts slowly as the gullets fill up. with a needle file they cut faster than a 15pt saw - as you would expect them too - as more teeth are hitting the wood per stroke.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

We started carrying a Swiss made Grobet Swiss Needle file ...
Thanks for the identification of the needle files, Joel.

The 4xx is fine for the 15/16 ppi. But above, the 2" or needle work best as mentioned.

With a 4"xx a 18pt saw cuts slowly as the gullets fill up. with a needle file they cut faster than a 15pt saw - as you would expect them too - as more teeth are hitting the wood per stroke.
All things being equal--same files used and thickness of wood and saw plate--a 16 ppi will cut an 18 mm (3/4") thick piece of hard Maple faster than a higher ppi saw, though. The 18/19 ppi are good for thinner wood (say 1/2" or so) unless the lower ppi saw is filed for it...

It isn't that more teeth are in contact with the wood. That can create a smoother sawing experience in the thinner wood though. Your saw doesn't cut "faster" because of more teeth. In part it is the 18 thou plate and (I assume) a fine set. In part it is the deeper gullets from using the needle file as opposed to a 4xx file (because it takes more saw dust to fill a gullet) on a saw of that many teeth per inch. The tooth height is still less than a lower ppi saw if using an appropriate file. Which means the lower ppi saw will saw faster in thicker wood as it can carry even more saw dust all the way through the cut before the gullets fill up.

The same principle carries through to larger saws. Try using a 10 ppi saw--even with deep gullets from using a smaller than typical file--on a piece of 2"+ thick piece of even Pine against a 5 ppi saw. It's not just that there is less teeth per inch, it's the ratio of less teeth = deeper gullets.

There is always a balance in sawing: using the right saw for the wrk at hand. For cutting a board to length, if I needed a nice finish then the 10 (or whatever) ppi saw would be appropriate. If I was rough cutting to length, the speed versus finish issue dictates using a lower ppi saw is appropriate.

On rip cuts in joinery (well, anyway), it is "best" to match the ppi to the thickness and species of wood within the compromises of the saws one owns. And of course, the more saws the merrier.

btw, when will stock be available for your saws, Joel? One of these days after they available I want to pick one up. One can never have too many saws!

Take care, Mike

[Bob Smalser]

...the lower ppi saw will saw faster in thicker wood as it can carry even more saw dust all the way through the cut before the gullets fill up.



I can only add from a boatbuilder's point of view that the wetter the wood, the stickier the sawdust and saws coarser both in ppi and set than for dry wood, either hardwoods or softwoods. Filing the sloped gullets that produce taller teeth is surprisingly beneficial on our wood at above 10% EMC in winter.

Moreover, the hardwood-softwood demarkation line is a whole lot fuzzier than the recommendations commonly heard. The airdried DF and Sitka sitting in the stacks here can be down as low as 4% EMC by the end of September before the rains begin, and saw more like kilned oak flooring than easier mahogany and the softer hardwoods.

[Joel Moskowitz]

<snip>
Mike,
We tested a whole range of saws, including yours. The finer pitch saw was faster in all woods up to 5/8" than any coarser pitched saw, sometimes only marginally faster, but faster none the less. on typical drawer stock it shines on thicker stock it's fine but the speed was basically the same. Of course with the finer pitch you can also saw the teeth far more aggressively (and it still starts like a dream), which is part of the reason you get the speed even on thicker stock. When you use a 4" xx instead of a needle file on saws this fine you get crap. (it's interesting to note that the classic 18th century dovetail saw disappeared from the market about the same time that saw files were standardized by Stubbs - probably just coincidence but I thought of that today) But I don't think the 18 or 19pt (I am to lazy to get up and look it up right now) of the Seaton dovetail saw is a coincidence. The handle was made by the manufacturer (and it's a transitional handle) and the total demand for Dovetail saws in the late 18th century was nearly nil compared to biulder's saws and that explains the handle shape, but changing teeth on a saw to get it right to task was pretty easy to do and even 150 years earlier Moxon says on saw buying (paraphrasing) just get a saw with good steel and customize the teeth for the job.

"btw, when will stock be available for your saws, Joel? One of these days after they available I want to pick one up. One can never have too many saws!"

Put in an order. We had a 4 week hiatus when we moved. As you know any interruption puts you more behind then you would like. We are now back in full production and are catching up as fast as we can.