Mixing Fuels

[Jonathan Harvey]

:eek: I don't know if I made a big mistake here or not so please let me know. I had bought two cans of camp fuel for DNA drying (Not sure now if it was the right stuff or not) it says it contains naphtha petroleum. anyway I have been using it for the DNA drying and tonight I did a bigger piece and the Camp fuel I had did not completely cover the bowl so I added an extra liter of a different fuel; Methyl Hydrate. I though nothing of it until my wife said that I should not be mixing fuels. Have I made a dangerous mistake or do you think I am OK?

I'll be awaiting your replies if I don't blow up first :rolleyes:
Jonathan

[Dale Stagg]

Naptha comes from crude oil and Methyl Hydrate from bacteria. Combining oil distillates should not be a problem, but combining oil distillates with other fuels such as you have, probably not bad, but better to not take a chance in future without further data. However, Methyl Hydrate is a fuel additive and made to mix with gasoline which is not much different than the naptha. Should be safe and just fine, however care should be taken when mixing and not sure what you have in future.

[Bernie Weishapl]

This is just my opinion but I definitely would not use naptha in place of DNA. You can get DNA at your local lumber yard or paint stores. That is a combustible situation. I definitely would not leave it in my shop while soaking the wood. Also I would think the oil in the naptha would not be very good when it comes time to finish the wood. Just my thoughts.

[Jonathan Harvey]

This is just my opinion but I definitely would not use naptha in place of DNA. You can get DNA at your local lumber yard or paint stores. That is a combustible situation. I definitely would not leave it in my shop while soaking the wood. Also I would think the oil in the naptha would not be very good when it comes time to finish the wood. Just my thoughts.

Is DNA Methyl Hydrate? If it is then it to is flammable. Please point me in the right direction.

[Barbara Gill]

Denatured alcohol is Ethanol with something added so it is no longer potable.

[Dennis Peacock]

Is DNA Methyl Hydrate? If it is then it to is flammable. Please point me in the right direction.

DNA is flammable. Every burned alcohol before? :D

Most finishes in our shops are flammable...just some are more so than others. ;)

[Jonathan Harvey]

So is Methyl Hydrate = DNA? This is the only stuff I can find.
Maybe it's a Canadian thing cause I can't seem to find anything in the stores with Denatured alcohol written on the container. I think the Government here thinks we'll drink it if it has the words alcohol on it ;)

[Dick Strauss]

Most DNA (ethanol) has very small amount of methanol added to it so we don't have to pay liquor taxes here in the states. The added methanol prevents it from being consumed by humans (unless you want to get sick).

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes, it's a Canadian thing. In order to get DNA in Canada you need to go to a chemical supply company, not a hardware store. It can be obtained, but I have never thought it was worth the hassel and have not looked into it. I am reasonably sure the price (and possibly minimum container size) would make it unattractive as well. I have not explored DNA soaking because until recently I have not done much green wood turning. My use for DNA would be for mixing shellac so I would not need a large volume. You can get isopropyl alcohol or methyl hydrate fairly readily. Fuel for alcohol stoves is another possiblility but was quite expensive (~$20 for a 4 litre jug) when I found it at a marine supply outlet. Naptha camp stove fuel is definitely not alcohol.

Good Luck!
Bob

[Grant Wilkinson]

Jonathan

Since I'm in Canada, and unfortunately since I used to work for Excise, I figured that I would wade in on this one.

As someone else said, denatured alcohol is nothing more than drinking alcohol with something added. So, in Canada, all the gasoline that you buy with ethanol in it is, by definition, denatured alcohol. So is the windshield wiper stuff you can buy.

Methyl hydrate is plain alcohol, but not the drinking kind. Ethyl alcohol is the drinking kind. Methyl hydrate is the stuff that you can burn in alcohol camp stoves and fondue burners.

As for drying wood, I'll let people far more knowledgeable than me advise you. But, I can say for certainty that not all Canadian denatured alcohol would be what you want. (I can't see pouring sunoco gas on it, for example. But all Sunoco gas in Canada is a denatured alcohol.)

g

[Max Lucciola]

methyl hydrate is methanol, AKA methyl alcohol, AKA wood alcohol. This stuff is much more toxic than DNA (although DNA does contain a few % of methanol). I would be wary of using methanol without a lot of ventilation.

See: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/2001/2001_07_e.html

[David Epperson]

DNA and other alcohols dry wood by basically leaching the water out of the wood and replacing it with alcohol across the osmotic membranes and cell walls. When removed from the soak the alcohol will evaporate out of the wood much faster than the original water would have. First because alcohol is more volatile (evaporates faster in dry air) and second because the relative humidity (which is water vapor) will not then retard the drying (has to do with the equilibrium partial pressure of water vs the same partial pressure of alcohol in you shop air - hopefully very low :D)
So if your methyl hydrate is methanol, AKA methyl alcohol, AKA wood alcohol. then it "should" work for drying the wood. Though it might require a bit more ventilation in the handling as a precautionary measure.
I wouldn't continue the naptha use either.

[Steve Schoene]

Interesting--In Canada methyl hydrate, which is methanol or wood alcohol and rather toxic, is apparently readily available, while denatured alcohol, which is based on ethanol with any of a variety of additives to make it non-drinkable and which is generally less toxic to breath than is the methyl hydrate, is hard to get. In the USA it's the reverse that is true--DNA is easy, and methanol quite a bit harder to find.

Any clues as to reasons? Just one set of officials in one country coming to different decisions as their counterparts in the other? Fewer corn farmers to influence policy?

[Bill Wyko]

Not to change the subject but can you use racing grade alcohol for a drying solution? I have about 10 gallons from last dune season and It's too old to use in my quad.

[David Epperson]

Not to change the subject but can you use racing grade alcohol for a drying solution? I have about 10 gallons from last dune season and It's too old to use in my quad.
What is it that makes it "too old"? Unless it's already mixed with petroleum fuel and the petroleum fuel is "old". In which case the gas is what would make it unsuited. I wasn't aware that alcohol had the same molecule clumping problem that gasoline did. Never noticed an expiration date on Heet fuel additives, and that's just alcohol - Red bottle is methanol, yellow bottle is denatured ethanol. (or vice versa - one or the other).

[Bill Wyko]

It absorbs moisture which will change it's flash point enough to blow an alcohol banshee to pieces. (been there done that) So I don't even take the chance. I look at it this way 5k for a new motot or 5 bucks a gallon for new season fuel.:D

[TYLER WOOD]

Maybe Bill, but drinking it would be much more fun. ohhhhh wait that's the bad stuff, sorry.

Go get you some everclear and use it. Same stuff as DNA just no harmful stuff added. Yes you have to pay taxes on it, but I have found it to be cheaper than DNA, so it's a wash on the price. You either pay a premium price for the additives so you can't drink it, or pay the taxes.

Hey I like multi-purpose items anyways. Drink what you can't uthe. orsumhing liktat blurbbglubbbb........:p

[David Epperson]

It absorbs moisture which will change it's flash point enough to blow an alcohol banshee to pieces. (been there done that) So I don't even take the chance. I look at it this way 5k for a new motot or 5 bucks a gallon for new season fuel.:D
LOL. OK. So dunk your turning peices into it and let it absorb all the moisture it can hold. What you have is almost the same as some drying alcohol that's been used once---and it can be used much more than that. If you search a bit here on the subject there are some good posts telling when there is too much moisture in the DNA and when to change it out. Sounds to me like you have 10 gallons of primo drying fluid.:D

[Bill Wyko]

Who would have ever thought that my woodwork would have anything in common with this.(one of my other passions)

[Grant Wilkinson]

Steve

The admin may suggest that we start a new thread, but I can tell you the rationale in Canada - money.
We tax the living daylights out of ethanol from the time it leaves the still. The only way for the manufacturer to avoid the tax is to denature it. Most of the denatured alcohol in Canada is sold by the manufacturer to manufacturers of other products - cosmetics, inks, you name it. As soon as the alcohol is denatured, the tax is removed from it. (It's not unheard of for some enterprising individual to try to re-distill out the alcohol from after shave, but it's really not worth it.)
Methanol, on the other hand, being non-potable is not taxed. So, we can buy it in any hardware store by the barrel.
The Cdn government is not concerned about health issues - only the money.

[Jonathan Harvey]

So What we are saying is that Canadians can't do DNA drying unless they drive to the states to buy it. :(

[Steve Schoene]

Well, yes, but that's exactly the same in the US. Lots of tax on potable ethanol, but none once it is denatured. But here the denatured is not only sold for industrial use, but also packaged for retail sale, and is available at every hardware and paint store.

Is there confusion about the names? In Canada I understand DNA is sold as methylated spirits, which is ethanol with methanol (usually about 5%) added as the denaturing ingredient. This is not the same as methyl hydrate, which is methanol.