Measuring Tools

[Dwain Lambrigger]

I have a few measuring tools, you know, you basic HD stuff: Speed Square, Combination Square, cheap plastic bevel square. I am looking to spend a little more on a try square, or a couple, and a bevel square. While not looking to spend $100. for a Starrett square, I want to get the best within reason. Where should I look?

Thanks to all.

[Mike Henderson]

In my opinion, you want to get good squares since they are the basis of making square work. Engineer's squares are not that expensive - you should get several in different sizes.

For combination squares, my favorite is the Mitutoyo, made in Japan. You can find them used on eBay. They're as expensive as Starrett but I find they operate smoother. They're accurate and stand up to the knocks of a shop. Starretts are good but don't slide as nicely.

Any quality combination square you purchase - Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown and Sharpe, etc. - will hold it's value. If you decide you don't like it at some time, you'll get almost your full purchase price back when you sell it.

I can guarantee that if you buy cheap squares, you'll be buying again later. It's always more expensive to buy twice.

Mike

[Hank Knight]

Dwain, I agree completely with Mike Henderson: spend the money on the front end and get good layout equipment. Your work depends on it. If you use sloppy equipmemnt you will end up disappointed with your work.

I have a nice 12" Starrett combo square with all the attachments I inherited from my father. I seldom use it. I find I use a little 4" double square or a 6" combination square most of the time. They are handier than the big 12" combo and perfectly satisfactory for most tasks in my shop. With a 6" combo, a good steel rule and a good sliding bevel, you can handle 99.9% of your layout work.

For a sliding bevel guage, the Veritas one sold by Lee Valley is excellent. The locking mechanism folds back into the handle and stays out of the way - a nice feature.

I also agree with Mike on the quality of the brands he recommends. While I don't think you can ever go wrong with Starrett, Mitutoyo and Brown and Sharpe both make high quality stuff. You might also look at Lee Valley. They sell the Veritas sliding bevel I mentioned above, a nice little 4" double square and a host of other layout tools that are less expensive than the major brands.

Hank

[Barry Beech]

I have the Veritas 4" double square and the Starett 6" combo (off ebay) and love them. Use them all the time when I'm able to get in the shop. :rolleyes:

[Dan Clark]

I have a few measuring tools, you know, you basic HD stuff: Speed Square, Combination Square, cheap plastic bevel square. I am looking to spend a little more on a try square, or a couple, and a bevel square. While not looking to spend $100. for a Starrett square, I want to get the best within reason. Where should I look?

Thanks to all.
Dwain,

All of the things you mentioned contain "square". Are you trying to measure "squareness" or using them for something else?

I have most of what you mention including a Starrett Combo Square. I find it useful for measuring offsets and such, but it's NOT really square. Maybe because of use, mine is off square and varies depending on where you clamp it down.

For measuring squareness, I now use a Incra Guaranteed Square that I got it from Woodcraft. It's a pricey little bugger but more accurate than the Starrett.

Regards,

Dan.

[Jim Nardi]

If your interested in top of the line used there's a thread here about brass city toolworks. Walt has alot of used Starrett on his site. The british made steel squares that LV sell are cheap and hold up really well. I've dropped several of them and never went out of square.

[Derek Cohen]

If you are feeling flush, lash out on a 6" square from Colen Clenton. This one is in Ebony and new to the workshop.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/ColenClenton1.jpg

Crown make a 4" version of this which it very nicely finished, inexpensive (bargain price!) and a great size for smaller joints. I have a couple of 12"/300mm Starrett combo squares, but generally find them too large.

The other one I enjoy (have had it a long time) is a Starret 6" double square. Pictured below with a few marking knives - you need those as well.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Markingknives5.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Anderson NH]

Dan, I'm afraid your Starrett was damaged at one point in the past. I've never seen a tool from them that didn't meet their specs. They do have a repair service and I would suggest having them take a look at it and make the repair. Before doing it however you might want to disassemble it and clean out the slot and the accompanying parts. Even a small bit of sawdust or grit in the slot or on the tightening rod can make a big difference in accuracy.

[Michael Hammers]

I work for a company that sells this type of tools and can tell you that you get what you pay for. Buy cheap and get bit.
After seeing so many lesser brands returned I really came to understand their tolerances and workmanship.
If your not square, nothing you build will fit and you will become so frustrated. You will save more money by getting a good piece up front compared to the cost of wood you will waste trying to figure out why things are not working. From lay out to setting up machines, this is a basic must.
Mitutoyo and Starett are what I am familiar with and can vouch for.
Dave is correct, Starrett will service your dammaged piece. They have been in bussiness this long for a good reason..quality, customer service.

[Dwain Lambrigger]

All,

Thanks for the great feedback. I just call Walt at Brass City Tools and he had a Starrett 12" combo square, and I picked it up. I am going to buy the Incra Guarantee Square (5") with the next pay check. I am thinking that veritas bevel square and the 7" Incra Guarantee Square and next on the wish list.

Again, I appreciate the feedback, it's one of the reasons I am here.

[Tom Cooney]

I received "Tool Making Projects for Joinery and Woodworking" by Steve Olesin http://www.amazon.com/Tool-Making-Projects-Joinery-Woodworking-Craftsmans/dp/1892836238/ref=sr_1_4/104-7161457-3731924?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188577321&sr=8-4

a while back and have had a blast making almost everything in the book. I have also found shop notes a great resource for tool making (including measuring and marking tools) over the years.

Tom

[josh bjork]

As far as measuring goes, I use an incra ruler and a little T square also from incra.

[David DeCristoforo]

Been using Starrett squares and rulers for 35 years and they are the same ones I bought 35 years ago. As many have already pointed out this is not the area in which you want to go "on the cheap".

[Dan Clark]

Dan, I'm afraid your Starrett was damaged at one point in the past. I've never seen a tool from them that didn't meet their specs. They do have a repair service and I would suggest having them take a look at it and make the repair. Before doing it however you might want to disassemble it and clean out the slot and the accompanying parts. Even a small bit of sawdust or grit in the slot or on the tightening rod can make a big difference in accuracy.

Dave,

I'll give that a try.

Thanks,

Dan.

[Jon Toebbe]

My dad bought be a Starrett 12" combination square and a 6" double square for Christmas last year.

Best. Christmas. Evar.

Seriously -- these tools, particularly that little double square are the most used tools in the entire shop. A machinist friend of mine swears by Starrett. They are the real deal.

That said, I've also had very good luck with my 12" combo square from Rockler. Their house brand, cost about $30, I think. It was a huge improvement over my craptacular, Home Depot un-square that I was struggling with. Having a reliable square helps you develop a lot of confidence when you're just starting out. Hank also recommended Lee Valley -- I haven't used their measuring/layout tools myself, but I've never gone wrong buying anything from those wonderful Canucks.

[lowell holmes]

If your like me, you will eventually buy the Starrett. Do it now and save your money that you will spend on a lesser square.

[Wilbur Pan]

For combination squares, my favorite is the Mitutoyo, made in Japan.

Trivia time: Despite the name, Mitutoyo actually started in the U.K.

Edit: Ignore the above. I am getting old fast.

[Bill Houghton]

and you're feeling courageous, it's possible to adjust the squareness of the combination square, if it's consistently off square at every setting. The rule is pulled against little ridges in the sliding head by the tightening jobbie (can't recall the term). With an auger bit file (ideal, because it's got one end with teeth on the edge and a "safe," meaning no teeth, face), needle file, or other wee file, you can smooth down the ridge in the appropriate direction to get back to square.

With a Starrett, though, I'd first contact the company and find out what they charge to re-calibrate it. Might well be worth paying them, if you have the money.

[Mike Henderson]

Trivia time: Despite the name, Mitutoyo actually started in the U.K.
That's interesting - do you know any more of the history?

Mike

[Wilbur Pan]

Ack -- never mind. I was thinking of something else. Massive brain fart on my part. Sorry sorry sorry.

Mitutoyo was founded in Japan in the 1930's. The history of the company can be found here (http://www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/corporate/history/index.html).

Mike, have you tried putting a drop of some sort of lubricant in the groove of the ruler to help smooth out the action of the Starrett combination squares? I would thing a small amount of a silicone lubricant might help out. I have a Starrett and know what you are talking about as far as how the action might be smoother.

[Mike Henderson]

Ack -- never mind. I was thinking of something else. Massive brain fart on my part. Sorry sorry sorry.

Mitutoyo was founded in Japan in the 1930's. The history of the company can be found here (http://www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/corporate/history/index.html).

Mike, have you tried putting a drop of some sort of lubricant in the groove of the ruler to help smooth out the action of the Starrett combination squares? I would thing a small amount of a silicone lubricant might help out. I have a Starrett and know what you are talking about as far as how the action might be smoother.
I tried a small amount of oil on the Starrett but it didn't seem to make much difference. I'm leary of using any silicone in the shop because of fisheyes. I really don't know what's different between the Mitutoyo and the Starrett but the Mitutoyo operates smoother (I have several Starrett combination squares in sizes from 6" to 18"). Another nice feature of the Mitutoyo (but not that important) is that it has a ring below the tightening nut that you can use the turn the clamp part over (see the pictures). You only do this when you want to use the other side of the rule, but it's a nice "suprise" thing.

The first picture shows the assembly together. The brass ring (or nut) is used to tighten the rule. The black ring right behind the brass ring is used to turn the hook over when you want to turn the rule over. You remove the rule, then use the black ring to rotate the hook to the other side, then re-insert the rule. You'll now use the other side of the rule.

I hope that explanation is understandable.

Mike

[Ken Werner]

LV 4" sliding square lives in my apron and is terrific. Less weight and cost than the Starrett. Was a gift from my kids.

Ken

[David Weaver]

Check to make sure it's tight when you get it. If it was matched to start with, it probably will be. I bought one made of parts when a matched original wasn't available, and it doesn't and won't lock up tight, so it's basically useless unless I check it with a try square first and then make sure I hold it tight enough that it can't move. I won't be doing that forever.

I did find another matched 4-piece combination starrett square set being sold in an antique shop with a huge collection of stuff from a retiring machinist. It's dead nutz, so now I have two starretts. I just have to figure out what to do with the pieces of the first one as I won't sell it to an unsuspecting person who is looking for a name.

I agree that Brown and Sharpe and Mitutoyo are every bit as good - I actually like the Mitutoyo combination squares a little better than the Starrett sets, too, but that's also just based on feel. I certainly wouldn't stick my neck out and say one was more square than the other.

[Ian Smith]

If you are feeling flush, lash out on a 6" square from Colen Clenton. This one is in Ebony and new to the workshop.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/ColenClenton1.jpg


Since you mention that your Colen Clenton square is new to the shop you might not be able to answer this yet, but here goes.

How does the brass blade handle being used with a steel bladed marking knife? I would have thought that the softer brass would be a bit susceptible to wear or gouging when used in conjunction with a steel blade.

I too like Colen Clenton's tools, my favourite is the Screw Action Mortice Cutting Gauge (http://www.hntgordon.com.au/escrewmorticecuttinggaugeweb.jpg). I don't own one but it sure is nice. I checked one out at the last Sydney Timber and Working With Wood Show.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Ian

I don't have enough time with the CC to comment, other than it is an absolute pleasure to use, but the very similar 4" Crown has had use for over 5 years and still looks as good as the day I got it. At the price, this little square - adjustable in the same way as the Colen Clenton, with Rosewood infill - is a bargain.

Regards from Perth

Derek