Roughing Gouges

[Tom Bucanan]

This is my first time posting here, but I wanted to know what all of your recommendations were for heavy duty roughing gouges. I just got a PM 4224 lathe and have been roughing out some large cherry, beech, and maple blanks (12" - 18"). However, I have been having some real trouble not only with reaching the bottom of my bowls, but also with my gouges bending. Could you reccommend the size and make of the large roughing gouges that you use? Any advice would be greatly appreciated

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Tom......Welcome to the Creek!

Roughing gouges as commonly spoken of are not recommended for use when turning bowls. Turning bowls most often involves cross grain situations. The "common" roughing gouge has a tang that mounts it to the handle and that is it's weakest point. For that reason you'll hear a few individuals say they use them for roughing out bowls but the majority recommend you DO NOT use them for roughing bowls. They are meant to rough out spindles where the grain runs parallel to the bed.

Most turners use a larger diameter bowl gouge....say 1/2" or 5/8" for roughing out bowls. The diameter varies based on personal preference and power of your lathe. The bowl gouge is made from round stock steel and that diameter is continued into the handle and thus they are much stronger.

Good luck with your decision and again......


Welcome to the Creek!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Tom welcome to Creek. Ken gave you some good advice. Roughing gouges are for spindle work and not for bowls. To start with I would recommend a 3/8" and 1/2" bowl gouge. With a roughing gouge if you have a catch in a bowl it could be a pretty nasty accident especially if the tang breaks at the handle. The bowl could break up and or break the tool rest. I noticed that a lot of the suppliers of turning tools are now putting a warning in with the roughing gouges and spindle gouges that says, "do not use for turning bowls."

[Paul Heely]

First welcome to the creek!

My favorite bowl gouge is the Crown Ellsworth gouge.

However I would not recommend it as a first gouge. I would say to get an inexpensive 1/2 or 5/8 (depending on what measuring system is being used) and use that until you figure out how to sharpen it and what grind you like best. I ground the heck out of a Woodcraft bowl gouge figuring out what I liked and how to grind it. I probably would not have experimented as much if I was doing the same thing with a more expensive gouge.

[Rich Souchek]

Tom,
Roughing gouges are made for spindle turning, with the grain of the object running between the heastock and tailstock.
With bowls, the grain often runs perpendicular to the lathe rails or bed. These grain changes will really play rough with a roughing gouge but they are the reason for the bowl gouge design. A decent 1/2" or 5/8" bowl gouge would be the preferred tool and should make short work of the blank.
Kind of reading between the lines in your message, it seems you might be short of experience. I learned a lot reading and asking questions here, but the REAL improvement happened when I spent some time with other turners watching and learning from them. You know anybody that turns?
A woodturning club may be nearby and they often have all sorts of helpful people. The American assocaition of Woodturners has MANY local chapters around, check here: http://www.woodturner.org/community/chapters/members.pl?submit=Chapter+List
Rich S.

[Tom Bucanan]

Thanks for all the help you guys. I already have two bowl gouges. I probably should upgrade to the 1/2" or 5/8" though since on of the gouges is bending because I tend to let it hang too far off the toolrest.
Thanks for all the advice.

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Tom, Welcome to the Abyss and from the sounds of it you are ready to dive in to get some tools. What Ken and Bernie has said about not using a roughing gouge to hollow a bowl is so true. Be safe my friend; be VERY safe! I am a bit concerned about what you may be calling a roughing gouge however. It has been my experience that roughing gouges are designed in such a way and are even of such a thickness and weight that it would be very unlikely for them to bend in any way. That even applies to the inexpensive HF versions. Before a roughing gouge will bend the tang would most likely split out the handle. It sounds to me like you may be using a spindle gouge and not a roughing gouge. I have included some pictures for clarification. first is a Roughing second is a spindle third is a bowl gouge.

The second part of your dilemma can be solved by positioning your tool rest inside the bowl opening so that there is not a lot of overhang of the tool. Personally, I like P&N tools. Hope this helps a little.:)

[Bill Wyko]

[quote=Paul Heely;650015]First welcome to the creek!

My favorite bowl gouge is the Crown Ellsworth gouge.

Ditto. If I was allowed only one turning tool it would be the the PRO PM Crown with the Elsworth grind. It is very versatile. You'll want to watch someone use one though. It can be used unconventionally.

[TYLER WOOD]

yes, please be careful. I just recently broke the tip off my round nose scraper hanging it over the tool rest too far. Cought my attention as it whizzzeeedddd by my head. Luckily I wear a face mask!

NO ROUGHING GOUGES IN BOWLS!!!!! Simple as that. Spindle gouges shouldn't even be tried, but are by some people DAMHIKT. Get a bowl gouge or use scrapers.

[Kim Ford]

Tom, Welcome to the Creek.

I just echo what is being said here. Safety is everyone's #1 concern and bending any type of tool on the lathe is definately un-safe. There are many good bowl gouges out there that range in size from 1/4" to 1" or larger.

If you are roughing out 12" to 18" blanks most people would use a 1/2" - 3/4" gouge. Typically when we say 1/2" it is the measurement accross the flute not the diameter, although some manufactures are referring to the diameter, so make sure you understand which method they are using when you buy. A 1/2' diameter gouge is about the same as a 3/8" flute measured tool.

Like Chris, I like the PN for roughing, but personally I never meet a bowl gouge I didn't like. Some just need to be sharpened more often.

Also, make sure you have the tool rest positioned correctly. Even with the proper bowl gouge, "reaching" with the cutting tip extended too far beyond the tool rest and getting a catch can transform the chisel into a sharp high speed flying object (SHSFO); really never a good thing.

Good luck, have fun, but first be safe.

Kim

[Frank Kobilsek]

Tom,

Welcome, Quick Story, My Dad calls with a little tremble in his voice, says can you come over. I hop in the truck and find him in his shop with his
1 1/4" spindle Roughing bent at the tang about 45 degrees and a brutally divited 7" or so bowl on his Jet mini. I asked, where is the nice 3/8 Henry Taylor bowl gouge I got you for Christmas. He points to the wall where it is hanging in the plastic sleeve. I ask Why don't you use that?, He says he is saving it. I say Dad you're 75 years old what are you saving it for. So we proceed to rescue the bowl with the bowl gouge and as I leave I pick up the bent Roughing gouge. He says 'Leave that here, I can straighten it' I say 'Yep that why its going home with me'

Dad got real lucky, spindle roughing gouges and skews are spindle tools. Check out the Artisan line of tools from Crafts Supply or get a good deal on a nice Sorbey from Grizzley catalog. My favorite is my Double ended 5/8 Oneway bowl gouge. I recently bought a PN Supa-gouge (1") and made a handle. I haven't figured out how to make it cut right yet. I suspect when I do it will be too much for my Jet 1642.

Maybe a private lesson in your shop from another local turner would be a big benefit to both your safety and your results. Physical Therapy is my most dreaded activity in life, do everything you can to avoid it.

Frank

[Bernie Weishapl]

Tom I would make sure as others have said that my tool rest was positioned to where you have a minimum of your gouge hanging over. I had several tool rests made for my lathes. One is a curved for use in bowls. With the curved on inside the bowl there is hardly ever more than a half inch distance between it and the wood. Also helps with chatter and vibration. I had six made 4 straight and 2 curved for $72.

[TYLER WOOD]

We need pics Bernie!!! Didn't happen!!! would love to see it when it does though!:D

[Bernie Weishapl]

Sorry Tyler my trigger finger got itchy before my brain engaged. These are the 3 I had made for the Rikon. I had 3 more made for the Nova DVR. The ones for the Nova are pretty heavy duty as the post is 1" and the cross piece is 1". It makes for a solid rest.

[Glenn Hodges]

I often hear people talk about using a roughing gouge on a bowl. New turners read these post and go out and buy one, stick it to a bowl and break the roughing gouge, and or blow up the bowl. Some never try to turn another bowl. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, AND I MEAN NEVER USE A ROUGHING GOUGE ON A BOWL WHEN YOU FIRST START TURNING. You are inviting disaster, the destruction of a tool, and the sight of blood. I hope this grabbed your attention. How do I know all this, when starting to learn how to turn I read about it on an internet forum, tried it and broke a fine roughing gouge on a bowl. I recommend the P & N bowl gouge as the best bowl gouge because it has the thickest shaft insert into the handle, period. If experienced turners want to really help new turners they might use the correct vocabulary when describing the tool they are using. I hope this helps someone.

[Christopher K. Hartley]

...I hop in the truck and find him in his shop with his
1 1/4" spindle Roughing bent at the tang about 45 degrees and a brutally divited 7" or so bowl on his Jet mini. Frank, Thanks, I stand corrected!:eek: :)

[Tom Bucanan]

Thank you so much everyone for helping me clear this up. Christopher's pictures were very helpful as I was using the wrong name for my gouge. It is not a roughing gouge, rather it is a bowl/spindle gouge (I can't truly tell the difference). Looking at the size, it is probably the same size if not larger than the spindle gouge C in picture two of Christopher's post (I hope that makes sense). If I had to guess, I would say that is is a Sorby Fingernail Profile Sorby spindle gouge. I guess my solution is to keep the tool rest closer to the piece of wood

[John Bush]

Hi Tom,
I recently got a PM4224 as well and need suggestions on the most logical rest style(s) and shapes/sizes.I only have the straight 14"er

Bernie, thanks for the pics. Where did you get your rests fabbed?? Do you prefer the round profile or the a flat profile. I guess the difference would be distance from the tool contacting the rest to the workpiece. Thanks, John.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Hi Tom,
I recently got a PM4224 as well and need suggestions on the most logical rest style(s) and shapes/sizes.I only have the straight 14"er

Bernie, thanks for the pics. Where did you get your rests fabbed?? Do you prefer the round profile or the a flat profile. I guess the difference would be distance from the tool contacting the rest to the workpiece. Thanks, John.

My local welder made these up for me. He charged me $12 for the ones for the Rikon and $15 apiece for the ones for the Nova. Yes I do prefer the round style and just my opinion they seem to let the tool glide better in my opinion.