Western Saw Questions while mind-drifting

[Brian Kent]

Mind drifting… because I am lying around, medicated after an appendectomy… and bored stiff!

Saw question: 2008 is the year of the saw for this beginner. I use a dozuki and ryoba pretty successfully. But I want to try western saws next year. So while I am lying around here, too drugged to do woodworking, what better time to ask for advice?

I have made boxes and furniture. I love hand-tool joinery and use power tools when it seems necessary.

I want to learn to restore old saw, but first I'll buy a couple of top-line new saws so I know what I'm aiming for.

Long posts are just fine, because the more you write, the less I have to think about the stupid, itchy, irritating staples holding my stomach together. Oh, and I'm fine, too.

Thanks in advance for your excellent advice!

[Bob Smalser]

The major advantage of western saws is they sharpen easily and as well or better than factory-new. So you always have a sharp tool on hand without buying replacement blades or needing twice as many saws because you have to send them out. The best western saws hand-filed the old-fashioned way will rival most Japanese saws.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17430481/271048395.jpg

You don't need to buy anything new. Buy a couple of older Disston D-8's, a 5-6pt 28" thumbhole rip like the one shown above and a 7-9pt 26" crosscut in good to excellent condition. The D-8 with .040" taper-ground blade, inset handle, and excellent balance is probably the best compromise between high quality and ease of use. The 1896-1917 medallion (See The Disstonian Institute site) saws had the best polish and are common as mud. Shouldn't cost you more than 30 bucks each including shipping. You want lots of blade remaining, the blades dead straight with intact teeth, and no heavy rust. Handles are easily fixed. Dead straight is the most important.

Then teach yourself to sharpen them using Vintage Saws' or another on-line tutorial. You'll need a saw set like the Stanley #42 and a few files....a single cut mill file to joint with, a 7" slim taper file for 3-6tpi, a 6" slim taper file for 7-8tpi, and a 6" extra slim taper file for 9-10tpi. Buy a couple-three of each and make handles. McLendon's Hardware sells them on eBay.

Learn on the rip saw first. All you usually have to do with a saw in good condition is fix the joint so all the teeth are the same height, duplicate the existing angles when filing, and set the teeth. Knock out all the old set before you begin, to insure yourself of uniformity, be fussy about the jointing using a block to keep the mill file square with the blade, and learn to "file to the joint", meaning when filing the angles you want to remove the flats made by the mill file while jointing without going beyond and shortening the tooth below its neighbors. It's better to leave a few small flats than shorten even a small percentage of teeth.

Last, don't worry about perfection. You can improve the joint or angles next time you sharpen the saw. The skill grows rapidly with use, and the worst-sharpened saw usually cuts twice as good as a dull one, whether western or japanese.

After you master filing and using those, we can talk about thinner, more expensive cabinetmaker saws and advanced filing techniques. But even with a stable of Disston's most expensive, there will always be lots of tasks for the heavier, humbler D-8's.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/238005847.jpg

[Joe Meazle]

Bob,
I have been using wetern saws for a while and have started filing. I have read and enjoyed most of your posts on saws. I am curious. I have noticed that you metion the D-8 quite often. What advantages do you think a D-8 has over a D-7 or an older No. 7. I use more back saws than anything But I do have D-8 and several No. 7's. I am no saw scholar but am eager to learn.
Thanks,
Joe

[Bob Smalser]

All we used when I was a kid were D-7's we bought by the dozen. Nothing at all wrong with them, but today they go for around the same money as the D-8, which has a slightly more refined blade and the inset handle that provides slightly better balance for a beginner. Later there were D-7's with inset handles, but in newer saws with a brushed finish instead of a polish.

A 1914 #7:

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/7page/cat7.jpg

A 1914 D-8:

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d8page/catd8.jpg

I hadn't bought any tools on eBay for well over a year, and when I went looking recently I noticed that prices seem down now on hand saws. So I'm fleshing out my set with all the tpis I don't have. Here's what I've been paying:

Disston No 16 Stiletto Engraved Saw Wheat Carvings NR!, $9.99
Disston D-15 Victory Saw, $26.00
Lot of 3 Vintage rip saws, Disston D-8 - Spear & Jackson, $24.99
Vintage Disston Acme 120 saw c. 1890, $126.99
Old Tool KEEN KUTTER PANEL SAW (Disston #16), $9.99
ANTIQUE DISSTON & SONS WOOD HANDLE HAND SAW D-8 Thumbhole, $12.55
Disston #112 Panel Saw c. 1896-1917, $35.00
KEEN KUTTER BY SIMMONS 25" HAND SAW VERY SHARP (another # 16), $7.50
Vintage-collectible KEEN KUTTER Crosscut Saw Tool 11PPI (another #16) $6.00
vintage 28" Disston & SON WIDE BLADE D-8 thumbhole, $20.50
Vintage 1896-1917 era Disston No.12 Rip Saw 5 point !!, $35.96
DISSTON ACME 120 hand saw 28" & 2nd unknown Disston saw, $6.50

Some are perfect with original teeth, and all have close to full-width blades except this $6.50 Acme 120 special, which will be the centerpiece of a future article on advanced restoration and filing:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/274929366.jpg

[Dwain Lambrigger]

Bob,

Your information is pure gold over here! I am interested in doing the same thing. I really don't have any experience, but I wanted to try to buy a few old dovetail saws and try to sharpen them. I have two quick questions:

1) Is there anything I should look for in a quality file? One brand better then another? Can I just go to HD and buy what you suggest?

2) I saw a short online video from FWW about sharpening a dovetail saw, and he had used a special tool that honed the blades. Is that something I would need to get started, and where do I purchase?

Thanks again Bob, you are a great resource.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob,

1) Is there anything I should look for in a quality file? One brand better then another? Can I just go to HD and buy what you suggest?

2) I saw a short online video from FWW about sharpening a dovetail saw, and he had used a special tool that honed the blades. Is that something I would need to get started, and where do I purchase?



Buy Nicholson or Simonds. There are also Swedish "Blun"(?) that are good files but the Chinese-made Great Necks and the like are a waste of money. There's a reason they can sell a 4-dollar file for 50 cents, and it ain't because Simonds is ripping you off. Highland Hardware sells files, so does CC Tools, Tacoma Screw and others. The company websites list their distributors. Files are expensive, don't last long and are best ordered by the box on a commercial account.

Dunno what special tools hone blades, unless he was polishing the saw to reduce friction. Various commercial jointers are special tools and the wire edge is removed after filing by lightly stoning the sides of the teeth with a scrap chunk of carborundum or other stone. A mill file clamped to a chunk of accurate turning square serves just as well as a jointer.

And sanding or polishing saws can really botch their looks unless done through all the grits followed by a green rouge buff across the sanding marks. On bad ones previously scratched up I treat with phosphoric acid if there are any pits followed by 80-150 grits on the ROS lubed with mineral spirits, and switch to hand sanding using a block for 180-600 grits. Clean the saw between grits to prevent scratching.

If the saw has or will have collector value, special care with the polish and etch are well worth the trouble.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/269216761.jpg

[Brian Kent]

That is really helpful information. What do you use for tenons an dovetails? Disston backsaws?

[Bob Smalser]

What do you use for tenons an dovetails?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/274961556.jpg


From the bottom:

Carcase saws 12pt xct and 9pt rip.
Tenon saws 16pt xct and 14pt rip
Dovetail saws 16pt xct and 16pt rip.

All Disston except the longer dovetail saw no longer has any markings. These are all under-$20 saws. How dark the handles are stained is in direct proportion the the necessary repairs.

[Don C Peterson]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9131162/274961556.jpg


From the bottom:

Carcase saws 12pt xct and 9pt rip.
Tenon saws 16pt xct and 14pt rip
Dovetail saws 16pt xct and 16pt rip.

All Disston except the longer dovetail saw no longer has any markings. These are all under-$20 saws. How dark the handles are stained is in direct proportion the the necessary repairs.

Bob, thanks as always for sharing your knowledge. How long ago did you acquire those back saws? I've been watching ebay and not one of the Disston backsaws I've seen there has gone for less than $35-$40, unless they are in pretty rough shape (teeth missing, handles cracked, pitting, etc...)

I guess what I'm asking, is did you rehab those saws from rough shape, or did you pick them up in decent shape several years ago. Do I just need to be more patient, or should I just go for a $40 saw? Is it generally worth trying to rehab a saw that's been ridden hard and put away wet?

Thanks.

[Bob Smalser]

Actually, I've had only one of those saws over 5 years and all but one came from eBay. Not that I didn't have tenon and dovetail saws but they were not as good and I tend to upgrade as I go along from year to year. Once you already have all the tools you need, you can be patient in upgrading them.

If you want the best value, buy sales lots of multiple saws, rehab them all and sell or give away what you don't want. Over half of those saws were part of a package nobody elso wanted to pay postage on, and one turned out to be an 1880's vintage 8" tenon saw that is almost perfect. The 16" Sheffield it came with I rehabbed and modified like the bullnoses shown and sold it for around 75 bucks, over threefold what I paid for the original lot of two. But over half of the job lot saws aren't worth reselling and every young serviceman who has bought lumber here or came for lessons in the past few years usually also takes home a complimentary hand tool with him. Miter box saws in various sizes are so cheap they can practically be had for the postage, and are easily shortened to the longer flavors of tenon and carcass saws.

But individual saws can be also had inexpensively if you watch and wait...the bullnose saw with the darker apple handle was bought only three weeks ago:

Disston Backsaw #4 c. 1880 Confirmed win! $9.99 Aug 5

[Don C Peterson]

Excellent, thanks again.

[Richard Kee]

There was a recent post on Columbus Craigslist that I felt I needed to answer. The former tool collector was liquidating his collection - wanted to sell everything in one complete lot. He was unsuccessful after a short ime, so he decided to sell tool types in complete lots. I passed on most of his planes as he had a lot of junkers and though he only wanted $10.00 each in quantity(about 30), they just weren't worth it. He did offer 2 Stanley 45's for $55.00 each and an excellent Stnley 26 Transitional for $15.00 which I purchased .

Handsaws were a different issue - $1.00 each for 60 - about 25% Disston, including several D-8's, several E. C Atkins, with the remainder being Warranted Superior, etc. - yes, I bought the whole bunch. I also picked up a heavy duty saw vise for $13.00, about 25 saw handles in mostly good- condition, and a small box of saw nuts.

Thanks to Bob Smalser's wise guidance, I now can tackle the task of refurbing the saws that I want to keep. It looks like I'll be busy for quite some time.

Richard

[Brian Kent]

Oh man, what a find. Congratulations! You are going to have so much fun with those. I hope you have a saw barn, because a saw till just won't do it!

[Richard Kee]

Brian,

There's no way that I can keep all these saws. I'll just choose the ones that I beleive I'll use, then clean and sharpen those saws. The remaining ones that have any value will be cleanrd, sharpened , and sold. Some will unfortunately be disposed of without any futher work.

BTW, in the assortment of handles that came with this lot was a very large one made by Sandvik, Sweden, one like I've never seen before. I'm a big person and it is the most comfortable saw handle I've found.

Richard

[Roy Wall]

Brian,

There's no way that I can keep all these saws. I'll just choose the ones that I beleive I'll use, then clean and sharpen those saws. The remaining ones that have any value will be cleanrd, sharpened , and sold. Some will unfortunately be disposed of without any futher work.

BTW, in the assortment of handles that came with this lot was a very large one made by Sandvik, Sweden, one like I've never seen before. I'm a big person and it is the most comfortable saw handle I've found.

Richard

Richard -

I would be interested in a couple panel saws and 2/3 tenon saws when you decide to sell....

Nice haul!!!