Where are your tools made?

[Lean Angle]

Anytime I shop for tools, I am pretty sure I pick up just about every one on the shelf looking to see where it is made. I more or less refuse to buy anything chinese, and I always try to find USA made. Boy is that a challenge!

I was wondering if any of you do the same thing, and if there are any brands you have found that are mostly US manufactured.

When I bought my router, I was surprised to find Porter cables manufactured in mexico, and Bosch made in the US. I choose the bosh and have not been disappointed. As far as I can tell all the Bosch router bits are USA made too :D

I'm also currious where the various high end table saws are made, as that will probably be my next purchase. Grizzly? Jet? Delta?

[Kyle Kraft]

Welcome to the Creek, Lean!! Most of my stuff (JET) is made in Taiwan. I have mostly old school dewalt and milwaukee which are made in USA.

[kipp yeakel]

I usually buy what ever tool gets the best ratings when reviewed by Fine Woodworking, Wood, American Woodworker, etc. If the tool happens to be USA made then that's even better.:) I usually steer away from HF and other bargain basement tool sellers. I have bought Grizzly, (Taiwan and China made) Jet (Taiwan made) and Delta (Some Taiwan, some Mexico, not sure if USA made any longer). I've been very happy with my Grizzly purchases, and their support after the sale. I've also been happy with my Jet tablesaw and their support. Delta on the other hand has been a disappointment on both initial quality and support.

Finding USA made in this global economy is getting harder and harder. My GM vehicles are made in Canada and Mexico. I cannot buy gasoline that doesn't support the middle east. Probably Toyotas or Hondas are more USA made than cars from the big three..

Good luck finding those elusive USA made tools!

Kipp

[Jason Beam]

Dunno ... they work, so i never bothered to check.

[Pat Zabrocki]

This is an interesting question. I recently bought a new vehicle, a Buick Enclave and boy is it nice. Friends were telling me to check out the Lexus, Mercedes etc... but I said "no, it had to be made in the US and the profit had to stay in the US too" (I know the Lexus is made in the US but the profit goes out of the country). Anyway, your question makes me feel like a hypocrite and has given me cause to rethink my purchases. I buy American vehicles (really big purchases) but I have a lot of Grizzly. I can't say that I'll just change over night but I've certainly given myself something to think about.

On the other hand, I wonder how many creekers are sticklers about buying American tools but have Hondas and Toyotas in the garage? Hmmm... something to think about anyway.

BTW, I'm not getting on a soap box about buying American by any means. I certainly don't hold anything agains anyone that uses different criteria to make their purchases. Heck, apparently I don't have a consistant criteria other than to help out the home team when I can.

cheers
Pat

[Kermit Hodges]

95% of mine were made in American at least 50 years ago. ;)

[Alfred Clem]

U.S.A., England, Germany, Japan, China, Taiwan, Mexico. All good products, well-designed, and well made.

A friend recently criticized me for buying a Toyota Sienna minivan. He went on and on about how he wouldn't buy anything made by a former enemy of the U.S.

I pointed out to him that my Sienna was assembled in Indiana. He didn't know that his Audi (Auto Industrie Deutsche Industrie) was manufactured in Germany. Tee hee.

[Alfred Clem]

Correction: AUDI stands for Auto Union Deutsche Industrie. My fingers are sleepy this morning.

[Don C Peterson]

I don't care that much where the tools are made, I care how well made they are. Most of my tools are actually made in the US because by numbers (and total cost) most of my investment has been in Lie Nielsen planes, and a saw.

I think my Delta tablesaw was made in Taiwan. My chisels came from Japan and the UK. I have no idea where the Dewalt planer was made. I know for sure that my Walker Turner bandsaw was made in the US-some 60 to 70 years ago.

I have a PC router that I wish I'd never bought. The router itself seems fine, but the plunge base is worthless. I think it was made in Mexico. I wish I'd gone with the Bosch...

One thing's for sure, no company is going to earn (or loose) my business based on where their headquarters or manufaturing facilities are located. It's all about quality and value for me. If everything else is equal, then location might come into consideration.

[Allen Bookout]

I'm also currious where the various high end table saws are made, as that will probably be my next purchase. Grizzly? Jet? Delta?

You can forget Grizzly, Jet or Delta if you want to buy American. Like you say, you are going to have to go high end not to buy an Asian produced cabinetsaw and get one of the European products. I may stand corrected but I do not know of any cabinetsaws made in the USA at this time.

Like you, I like to buy American but it is just impossible regarding some tools.

[Kacey Zach]

It is very hard to find anything made in the US. I tend to buy based on sales and reviews by magazines and other users. If all else is equal I would much rather have a made in the US tool or anything for that matter.

Big equipment like tablesaws, what is left in the US? The PM66 is the only thing I can think of and that is being discontinued soon if not already. I don't think the newer Unis are made here anymore either.

[Lean Angle]

Cars are very tricky. A lot of times you don't know where its made unless you check that particular vehicle's markings. And who knows where the parts were made.

I don't worry about where the profits go. That part of my purchase pretty much goes to those with plenty of money (executives and such) or stock holders (could be anyone in any country). But the non-profit portion of my purchase is going to pay the salaries of people like you and me, and that's who I care about.

I don't mind buying things from other countries if I can't buy US. It's China that really bothers me. Mainly because they don't play fair, and the quality is often questionable. Craftsman used to make good power tools for instance, now its mostly made in china. I blew up a jigsaw and a router in the same day! Both almost new.

Quality is certainly my biggest concern, but there are other things to consider. For instance, a Japanese pull saw, in my opinion SHOULD be made in japan. :p

[Don C Peterson]

... but I said "no, it had to be made in the US and the profit had to stay in the US too" (I know the Lexus is made in the US but the profit goes out of the country).
Pat

I know this isn't an international economics forum, but how do you define that?

Profits in a public company go to shareholders. I'm sure that GM has many shares controlled by interests in China, Japan and elsewhere, and the inverse is true of Toyota. GM has facilities and plants all around the world, and so does Toyota. GM has employees in almost every nation on earth, so does Toyota. When you buy a GM car those employees and facilities in other countries benefit probably just as much as any particular facility or employee in the US.

I know this is an emotional issue for many folks, but it's nowhere near as clear cut as many seem to believe.

[Chuck Lenz]

I think some of the higher end Delta is still made in the USA. Like the X line of equipment. I'm not sure. This is really kind of a touchy subject for me. I won't get into how I feel about what this country has done with jobs, or the people that think a certain machinery importer is so great.

[Gary Keedwell]

Americans like good tools at a cheap price, period. I like to call it Wal- Martized. As long as 90% of Americans buy their tools at the big box stores, manufacturers are going to design tools that are inexpensive to make and have a short life span. They know that Americans like to buy the same tools over and over again like we keep buying cars. It is kinda based on the "throw away mentality" theory.
Anyways, that was my big thought for the day. I gotta go lay down now.:D

Gary K.

[Pat Zabrocki]

That's a good point about the shareholder being multi-national etc...

Obviously, this isn't an economics forum and I didn't consider that, thoug I would guess that more shareholders of GM are American and more shareholders of Toyota are not, your point is still very valid. As my post implies (hopefully), my stance is more warm and fuzzy about buying American and certainly not condescending as I was quick to point out my own contradictions. I was really trying to point out that I have apparently applied that sort of opinion selectively and not very constistently either. I was wondering how many others would admit to the same.
cheers
Pat

[Dwain Lambrigger]

This is a good question, and the car analogy works well.

I own two Fords, a pickup, and my wife's expedition. I bought them because they have received good reviews over time, they aren't too expensive, and they fit our families needs. Now, further down that list, I also bought them because my grandpa and my dad bought Ford, and I want to buy an American made car. I feel good about it. That being said, if Ford quality got worse, I would go buy a Toyota Tundra; and I'd do it tomorrow. It would bother me that Ford, GM or Dodge were making a sub par vehicle. But I wouldn't give a poor American car another look. I guess my patriotism won't hold me hostage.

Are you going to buy an American tool even if it is worse than a foreign counter part. I won't. All things being equal in quality, I would always by American, I think most of us would.

I guess I am saying that it is important for us to buy the best tools (that we can afford.) Period. If that tool is American made, all the better. If it isn't, then I am going to spur better products from American manufacturers the best way I can, with my checkbook.

I think it is now too expensive to build a quality power tool (like a cabinet saw) in American, and price it competitively. I am not sure where Powermatic is made, but if Grizzly can give me a quality tool, with EXCELLENT customer service, then I would buy. It is a sad state of world economics. Maybe it's time to rebuild those old Unisaws, and move forward from there! Still, I believe in supporting quality American made products, not simply products made in America.

[Ed Labadie]

Since my job depends on American manufacturing I try to buy USA made tools when possible.
I like to take time and think about a purchase before buying, comparing features of different manufacturers, customer service and country of origin before laying down my $$$$$. If the better tool (IMHO) is foreign made, so be it.

There are also many foreign made tools/machines that no US company makes, so USA made is sometimes not an option.

Ed

[Bruce Benjamin]

Anytime I shop for tools, I am pretty sure I pick up just about every one on the shelf looking to see where it is made. I more or less refuse to buy anything chinese, and I always try to find USA made. Boy is that a challenge!

I was wondering if any of you do the same thing, and if there are any brands you have found that are mostly US manufactured.


Nearly all of my larger tools are made in either Taiwan or China. It's what I can afford at the time and what fits my needs. My favorite tools that I use the most are designed and built in the U.S.A. and those are my EZ Smart tools. So, the inventor has a serious Greek accent, I can live with that. ;):rolleyes: :D All of the profits for the manufacture and sale stay right here in the U.S.A. Unfortunately, the Hilti 267E circular saw that I use on the EZ is made in Liechtenstein. Are any circular saws still made in the U.S.A.? If they are they aren't up to the quality of the Hilti, that's for sure.

I would prefer to buy all my tools, "Made in America" but that's just not possible for me. I have a very limited budget that I don't see changing anytime soon. There aren't any major tools other than the EZ Smart that I have that could've been purchased from a U.S. manufacturer in anywhere near the same price range. My choices were/are to either buy foreign or don't buy at all. I guess another choice is to try and save money for a few years to afford whatever tool is still made in the U.S.A. The used tool market in my area of far Northern California is small to virtually nonexistent so that's out of the question too. Besides, buying used American made tools really doesn't do much for that manufacturer's bottom line. Oh, and for what it's worth, it's either made in the U.S.A. or it's not. Canada, Mexico, Chaiwan, Japan, Germany, they're all about the same in my book when it comes to tool purchases. Either they help preserve American jobs or they don't. Where the profits go is another very complicated issue...

Is it better to buy something that's made in the U.S.A. by a foreign owned company or is it better to buy something that's made in a foreign country, like Canada or Mexico but from an American owned company? What helps the U.S. economy more? A lot of Honda cars are made in the U.S.A. But obviously it's a Japanese company. All of the Big Three American car companies build at least some of their cars outside of the U.S.A. I have no way of knowing about the percentage of $$ that are accounted for by foreign and domestic investments. But are more $$ poured into the U.S. economy by the wages earned by U.S. workers at the Honda plants or is more money kept in the U.S. by the profits of the foreign built Ford's, Chevys, and Chryslers. I guess we can't really count Dodge/Chrysler as American owned anymore. I don't know the answer but if I had to guess I'd say that the U.S. is better served by Honda than Chrysler. I hope I'm wrong though. I know there's an issue about what U.S. auto factories are UAW and which ones are non-union. I'm not much of a modern labor union guy myself but that's just my opinion.

I do find it funny when some people complain about and bad mouth the fact that many/most of the Harbor Freight items are made in Taiwan or China. I'll bet when you look in their shops you'll find that many of their tools were made in the same countries and some of them probably in the same factories but just with a different label on them and different paint. If you have only one or two Chaiwanese tools is that ok? I see it kinda like a guy who only robbed one bank not being as bad as the guy who robbed two banks. ;) Those people seem to be very fond of splitting hairs when it comes to ethics and doing what's right for America. Many claim to have some sort of inside knowledge when it comes to knowing about what was manufactured where, using who's design. Yeah, uh huh...:rolleyes: :D

Bruce

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a few Milwaukee tools that are made in the USA, as well as an Oneida cyclone. I also have Snap On and Mac hand tools, although I don't know if they are made in the US or Canada.

The trend today, is free trade, and globalization.

The manufacturing of tools or machinery outside the USA, does not result in lower or higher quality tools, the engineering and process control are what governs quality.

We've all purchased some North American garbage, and some premium quality imported tools.

That said, being Canadian, I have a large amount of green machinery in the basement (General) which is manufactured in Drummondville Quebec.

General, like Delta, and everyone else, had to begin making machinery in Taiwan to stay in business, because we are always on the quest for a lower cost item.

General formed General International to compete with the Taiwanese Delta equipment, while maintaining the made in Canada General line.

I like to purchase items that are made in my country, and don't hesitate to pay a premium for the equipment. I also am a firm believer in paying more upfront, rather than replacing items as they wear out.

I also purchase imported tools and equipment, if they are superior to home made equipment, or there isn't a home made substitute.

I'm sure many of us have ECE planes, Japanese or German saws or chisels etc.

My only concern about our constant quest for a can of tuna that's 10 cents cheaper, is that it exports the jobs and value generated.

Eventually we will have such low average wages, that we won't be able to generate enough tax revenue to fund societal needs, or have enough income to afford post secondary eucations for our children.

Regards, Rod.

[Chuck Lenz]

This is a good question, and the car analogy works well.

I own two Fords, a pickup, and my wife's expedition. I bought them because they have received good reviews over time, they aren't too expensive, and they fit our families needs. Now, further down that list, I also bought them because my grandpa and my dad bought Ford, and I want to buy an American made car. I feel good about it. That being said, if Ford quality got worse, I would go buy a Toyota Tundra; and I'd do it tomorrow. It would bother me that Ford, GM or Dodge were making a sub par vehicle. But I wouldn't give a poor American car another look. I guess my patriotism won't hold me hostage.

Are you going to buy an American tool even if it is worse than a foreign counter part. I won't. All things being equal in quality, I would always by American, I think most of us would.

I guess I am saying that it is important for us to buy the best tools (that we can afford.) Period. If that tool is American made, all the better. If it isn't, then I am going to spur better products from American manufacturers the best way I can, with my checkbook.

I think it is now too expensive to build a quality power tool (like a cabinet saw) in American, and price it competitively. I am not sure where Powermatic is made, but if Grizzly can give me a quality tool, with EXCELLENT customer service, then I would buy. It is a sad state of world economics. Maybe it's time to rebuild those old Unisaws, and move forward from there! Still, I believe in supporting quality American made products, not simply products made in America.
Interesting statement Dwain, but I don't know of any American made tools that are sub par these days, if there are, it's probably because they have some imported parts in them.

[Lean Angle]

I was really trying to point out that I have apparently applied that sort of opinion selectively and not very constistently either. I was wondering how many others would admit to the same.
cheers
Pat

I know for instance that I don't usually bother to look when I buy clothes. I guess I'm not really as concerned about the quality, that and its almost impossible to find clothes made in this country.

[Scott Loven]

Most Kreg Tools are made in the USA, Forest saw blades also, both highly rated products.
Scott

[Jim Heagney]

I know this isn't an international economics forum, but how do you define that?

Profits in a public company go to shareholders. I'm sure that GM has many shares controlled by interests in China, Japan and elsewhere, and the inverse is true of Toyota. GM has facilities and plants all around the world, and so does Toyota. GM has employees in almost every nation on earth, so does Toyota. When you buy a GM car those employees and facilities in other countries benefit probably just as much as any particular facility or employee in the US.

I know this is an emotional issue for many folks, but it's nowhere near as clear cut as many seem to believe.

Sorry, I couldn't let this subject go by without sticking in my 2 cents!

Don has some very good points but.....

What many folks don't think of is the taxes that a corporation pays on those profits. The taxes on the profits go to the state and or country where the corporate headquarters are located. The taxes are what help pay for government, infrastucture and services. When the corporate tax revenue leaves, the government relies on the individual taxpayer.

That's why it's good to buy from local companies (city, state & country) if possible.

Foreign companies that "make" their products here are not necessarily a good thing. Yes, they employ local folks but the company doesn't pay their fair share of taxes locally and thus the burden falls to the local people.

I realize there's a lot more to this than any one simple answer. I just wanted to highlight another point of view. I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening.

Jim

[Chuck Lenz]

U.S.A., England, Germany, Japan, China, Taiwan, Mexico. All good products, well-designed, and well made.

A friend recently criticized me for buying a Toyota Sienna minivan. He went on and on about how he wouldn't buy anything made by a former enemy of the U.S.

I pointed out to him that my Sienna was assembled in Indiana. He didn't know that his Audi (Auto Industrie Deutsche Industrie) was manufactured in Germany. Tee hee.
I don't think you can put China, Taiwan or Mexico in the same class as the USA, Germany or even Canada as someone else has said.

[Bruce Benjamin]

This is a good question, and the car analogy works well.

I own two Fords, a pickup, and my wife's expedition. I bought them because they have received good reviews over time, they aren't too expensive, and they fit our families needs. Now, further down that list, I also bought them because my grandpa and my dad bought Ford, and I want to buy an American made car. I feel good about it. That being said, if Ford quality got worse, I would go buy a Toyota Tundra; and I'd do it tomorrow. It would bother me that Ford, GM or Dodge were making a sub par vehicle. But I wouldn't give a poor American car another look. I guess my patriotism won't hold me hostage.

Are you going to buy an American tool even if it is worse than a foreign counter part. I won't. All things being equal in quality, I would always by American, I think most of us would.

I guess I am saying that it is important for us to buy the best tools (that we can afford.) Period. If that tool is American made, all the better. If it isn't, then I am going to spur better products from American manufacturers the best way I can, with my checkbook.

I think it is now too expensive to build a quality power tool (like a cabinet saw) in American, and price it competitively. I am not sure where Powermatic is made, but if Grizzly can give me a quality tool, with EXCELLENT customer service, then I would buy. It is a sad state of world economics. Maybe it's time to rebuild those old Unisaws, and move forward from there! Still, I believe in supporting quality American made products, not simply products made in America.

I agree with this last statement, Dwain. But where were your, "American Cars" made? What's your definition of an American Car? A lot of Honda's and Toyotas are made in America and a lot of Fords, Chevy's and Chryslers are made in Canada or Mexico and who knows where all of the parts come from?

I also think the idea that American owned companies currently build cars of equal or better quality to Japanese companies is debatable. They have really improved their quality and in some cases surpassed that of the Japanese. But if you talk to my friend who owns a successful auto repair business he'll tell you that he still gets a lot more American cars with problems than Japanese. For what it's worth, I currently drive a Suburban and a Jeep Cherokee. My last few cars in the past 10 years or so have been 3 Jeeps, 1 Ford, and 1 GMC and throw in an American made Mazda 626 and and American made Toyota pickup. The Cherokee has had it's small problems but just won't die with way over 200K on the odometer. That Toyota was practically bullet proof. The rest? Well, let's just say that I've kept my mechanic friend busy and my own knuckles skinned and greasy.

I'm not in the market for a new car so I don't have to make this decision. But if I was looking to buy a reliable, fuel efficient American made car right now I think I'd have a difficult time making a decision based only on the brand name of the car. It still makes me angry that Lee Iaccoca conned the U.S. government out of a bundle of money way back in the 70's only to turn around and spend billions of $$ to build factories in Canada and become the largest American importer of Mitsubishi made cars and parts.

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

I don't think you can put China, Taiwan or Mexico in the same class as the USA, Germany or even Canada as someone else has said.

I can and do. To each their own. I just believe that America hasn't received much more support from Canada or Germany than from those other countries. You have your own standards to judge by and from prior conversations that you and I have had I can be certain that your ideas frequently don't match mine. You're entitled to your opinions of course. I'll keep mine thanks.

Bruce

[Jason Beam]

I don't think you can put China, Taiwan or Mexico in the same class as the USA, Germany or even Canada as someone else has said.

I disagree. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds to me like you're implying that China, Taiwan and Mexico are incapable of producing ANY quality and that no good tools come from those countries. One step further, it sounds like you are saying that no tools made by those three countries compares in quality to a US made one of the same type?

That seems awefully general. I'd bet that every countery has both good and bad manufacturers. I'd also bet some of those good manufacturers could give us a run for our money.

Maybe I'm just reading you wrong.

[Don C Peterson]

Sorry, I couldn't let this subject go by without sticking in my 2 cents!

Don has some very good points but.....

What many folks don't think of is the taxes that a corporation pays on those profits. The taxes on the profits go to the state and or country where the corporate headquarters are located. The taxes are what help pay for government, infrastucture and services. When the corporate tax revenue leaves, the government relies on the individual taxpayer.

That's why it's good to buy from local companies (city, state & country) if possible.

Foreign companies that "make" their products here are not necessarily a good thing. Yes, they employ local folks but the company doesn't pay their fair share of taxes locally and thus the burden falls to the local people.

I realize there's a lot more to this than any one simple answer. I just wanted to highlight another point of view. I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening.

Jim

The problem with your argument is that you have to accept that more tax revenue is a good thing. Or in other words that government in general needs more money. I'm probably getting too political here, but the more money governments have, the more harm they generally do. When was the last time you ever saw any government apply a surplus of tax revenues to fund better basic services that truly benefit the tax payers? It may have happened somewhere, but I can't recall a time when it happened...

So I don't mind at all that a bit of my purchase might go to make the government somewhere else larger and more intrusive, if the alternative is to enable my "representatives" to spend more of other people's money.

OK, back to woodworking subjects before I get banned...;)

[Steve Rybicki]

I personally cannot afford to subsidize a business simply because of where it's headquartered. I have enough difficulty supporting my family with my business (which no one subsidizes). My product is either the best value or people don't buy it. This is the way it should be.

I've been hearing "buy American or we're doomed" for at least 20 years yet when I look around, I don't see the poverty other countries have. Our poor people are the middle class of many countries. I can afford to live the way I do, because of the competition from other countries. Lower prices from competition means my dollars go farther.

I also do not blindly buy a product because it's cheaper. I evaluate the quality and if is on par with a higher priced product, the decision is an easy one for me. Many times I buy the higher prices item because I desire the quality and value of it's features. I think this is how most Americans shop and it isn't likely to change.

This is just an opinion. I don't expect others to agree with it and I don't think it will change the minds of those who don't. I just figured others might be interested in knowing the reasoning behind why some choose to go with the best value - regardless of where the parent company is located.

[Allen Grimes]

Wow, I didn't think I'd see this topic floating around here ever again. This is a very touchy subject that almost always ends in a fight. Everybody has their views and nobody wants to back down.

All I can say to add to this topic is that just because you feel one way, doesn't mean that you are right, so please remember that when you feel the urge to insult the people who disagree with you.

[Lean Angle]

I disagree. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds to me like you're implying that China, Taiwan and Mexico are incapable of producing ANY quality and that no good tools come from those countries. One step further, it sounds like you are saying that no tools made by those three countries compares in quality to a US made one of the same type?

That seems awefully general. I'd bet that every countery has both good and bad manufacturers. I'd also bet some of those good manufacturers could give us a run for our money.

Maybe I'm just reading you wrong.

I think that the issue is that it is very hard to determine if you're getting a quality tool or not.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is better chance of getting an inferior tool that is made in China, twain or Mexico than there is of getting an inferior tool made in the US, Germany, Japan, Canada, etc.

It may be a generalization, but you have to play the percentages. Some companies have a reputation for managing their overseas quality very well. That does offer a degree of comfort.

[Steven Wilson]

Germany, Italy, Sweden, China, USA

[Gary Muto]

My new Jet jointer was made in Taiwan, as expected.
My Cabinet tablesaw (Delta Industrial) was made in America (Brazil:eek: ).
I have some older P-C and Craftsman power tools that are American.


As for Cars
Vehicel stickers state the content of American components in the vehicle.
"Typical" Big three cars are over 50% American... more like 75%
"Typical" Transplant vehicles are under 50% American... more like 30%
This is usually due to big ticket items like engine and transmission...also heavy design content.
Also remember that much of the engineering and most of the profit is going back to the Mother/Fatherland.
Interesting note: GM sells more Buicks in China than in North America (US, Canada and Mexico)

I don't judge anyone for not driving/buying american, just don't tell me that your Accord or Camry is as american as a GM or Ford.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I think the biggest gripe I have is that the United States of America has become a nation of consumers, and while we produce a some very fine products (Kreg, Forrest, etc.), an inordinate amount of our goods come from China/Taiwan. Merely look at the port exspansions happening along our coastlines. It's not because we're exporting things.

So, now the workers who no longer manufacture and assemble things in America, can at least buy those products cheaply at Wal-Mart. (Remember when Wal-Mart used to proudly display a "Made in the USA" sign on merchandise?)

For what it's worth, Mr. Angle, unfortunately the Terms of Service for the Sawmill Creek Forum require us to use our real names. It's not a big thing, but we're all pretty nice and friendly anyway. I'm sure you won't mind.

[Michael Gibbons]

O.K. folks ..ponder this . Right now the Big Three are in dire straights because of foreign competition. If and I mean IF.. everyone for the next four years bought nothing but traditional American cars the economy would take a extreme upswing because the demand would go up so high they would have to hire all the people back that took buyouts and then some. The small mom and pop machine shops and tool and die buisinesses would boom once again. Henry Fords idea was to bring raw materials in one door and roll a finished autmobile out the other. Today much is outsourced. To do that under one roof today would be near impossible due to the amount of parts required to build one style of vehicle let alone 15. Thats why the small jobbing shops that specialize in small parts; alternators ,window motors, brake calipers, etc are needed. The Ford axle plant I work at once employed over 8,000 people now we are down to about 2,000 and shrinking. Almost all of that is due to our patriotic brethren buying foreign. It was said by Ron Gettlefinger,Pres of the UAW, that most foreign cars that are ASSEMBLED here have only about 7-8% of the parts made here. Someday soon,I hope, people will remember what the Japanese did to us Dec 7th,1941 and change the trend. I've been wondering how long will it be before we forgive and forget what happened Sept 11th 2001 and jump in bed with Al-Qeida(?) and Osama bin Laden?

[Mike Henderson]

Someday soon,I hope, people will remember what the Japanese did to us Dec 7th,1941 and change the trend.
The sins of the fathers are not visited upon the children. The Japanese who were in power during WWII are not running the country today - most of them are probably not alive. I've had the pleasure of knowing many Japanese people (and lived with some) and they're just like us.

There are some Japanese fanatics who would echo you, but they'd say, "How can you buy an American car? Remember what the Americans did to us on August 6, 1945."

Mike

[Gary Keedwell]

. Someday soon,I hope, people will remember what the Japanese did to us Dec 7th,1941 and change the trend. I've been wondering how long will it be before we forgive and forget what happened Sept 11th 2001 and jump in bed with Al-Qeida(?) and Osama bin Laden?[/quote]

Yea, and I'm starting to see alot of "Made in Viet Nam" products, lately:confused: What's up with that?:eek: :rolleyes:

Gary K.

[Bob Childress]

Boy, these kinds of threads always seem to go South in a hurry.

The short answer is: It's a global economy already. If you think you can unring the bell, get over it--you can't. Japan had their turn and they're already outsourcing to Korea. Korea is getting better and outsourcing some to China. China will no doubt get better and outsource to Mongolia or Albania. The year the number of US manufacturing jobs fell below that of white collar workers was--1956! (Source: U.S. Census Bureau.)

I agree with Gary Keedwell on this (:eek: ). Most Americans will not pay the premium for US-made goods. Period. And members of this forum are not representative of the general weekend handyman buying his tools at Lowes. Too late. :(

[Don C Peterson]

Right now the Big Three are in dire straights because of foreign competition.

The "Big Three" are in trouble because of a combination of things. They have consistently failed to produce attractive, desireable, and durable cars that compete with their foreign counterparts. The stupid deals they have made with the UAW are a huge factor in their troubles too.


If and I mean IF.. everyone for the next four years bought nothing but traditional American cars the economy would take a extreme upswing because the demand would go up so high they would have to hire all the people back that took buyouts and then some.

I would posit a totally different outcome of that scenario. Due to the lack of real competition, cars would become the crappy junk that the "Big Three" produced in the 70's and 80's and would at the same time become more expensive. There would be a complete meltdown in auto manufaturing as consumers decide to hang on to their reliable old imports rather than spend their money on junk.

Competition is sometimes painful, but it is the only way to ensure that the consumer gets a wide selection of goods and services at the best possible price.

As to the comment about Dec 7th 1941, the list of historical grieviances is endless. Those who insist on dwelling on them do nothing but make themselves miserable.

[Chuck Lenz]

O.K. folks ..ponder this . Right now the Big Three are in dire straights because of foreign competition. If and I mean IF.. everyone for the next four years bought nothing but traditional American cars the economy would take a extreme upswing because the demand would go up so high they would have to hire all the people back that took buyouts and then some. The small mom and pop machine shops and tool and die buisinesses would boom once again. Henry Fords idea was to bring raw materials in one door and roll a finished autmobile out the other. Today much is outsourced. To do that under one roof today would be near impossible due to the amount of parts required to build one style of vehicle let alone 15. Thats why the small jobbing shops that specialize in small parts; alternators ,window motors, brake calipers, etc are needed. The Ford axle plant I work at once employed over 8,000 people now we are down to about 2,000 and shrinking. Almost all of that is due to our patriotic brethren buying foreign. It was said by Ron Gettlefinger,Pres of the UAW, that most foreign cars that are ASSEMBLED here have only about 7-8% of the parts made here. Someday soon,I hope, people will remember what the Japanese did to us Dec 7th,1941 and change the trend. I've been wondering how long will it be before we forgive and forget what happened Sept 11th 2001 and jump in bed with Al-Qeida(?) and Osama bin Laden?
Henry Fords goal also was to pay it's workers enough money that they could afford to buy the vehicles they built. How many Chineese would you supose can afford to buy a tablesaw ?

[Chuck Lenz]

The stupid deals they have made with the UAW are a huge factor in their troubles too.




I don't think you can blame the unions that stick up for american workers.

[Doug Shepard]

PM66 & PM54 - U.S. though I think that's changed some since mine were made
MM16 - Italy
Performax 16/32 - U.S. I think
DeWalt routers - dont have a clue
Stanley stuff - some U.K., some Connecticut, some who knows where
Starrett stuff - U.S.
Bridge City Stuff - Oregon
Delta lathe - Milwaukee
Delta B.O.S.S. - ?????
Monster DP - U.S.
Cyclone - S.Carolina
Lee Valley planes - Canada
LN planes/chisels - Maine
Marples chisels - U.K.
Anant Plane - India
Festool stuff - Deutschland
MicroFence - Kaleefawnya
Woodrat - U.K.
Noden bench parts - N.J.
My first decent workbench - Waterford, MI
Japanese Pull Saws - ?????
Red WW tights w/ blue apron/cape - Planet Krypton

[Gary Keedwell]

Henry Fords goal also was to pay it's workers enough money that they could afford to buy the vehicles they built. How many Chineese would you supose can afford to buy a tablesaw ?
Not going to argue but the Chinese industry today is where the American industry was many moons ago when Americans couldn't afford table saws either. The kind of woodworking we enjoy today in America and other prosperous Nations, is only a dream in many, many poor countries.:rolleyes: :)

Gary K.

[Don C Peterson]

I shouldn't do this... but if I had been the cautious sort I never would have become one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children... "Semper Fi, do or die!"


I don't think you can blame the unions that stick up for american workers.

Are you sure you don't mean "hold up American workers"? ...and yes, I can.

I'm proudly non-union now, but for years I worked for UPS. The Teamsters did nothing for me except extort money and hold me back. Union rules made it nearly impossible to promote anyone for performance. You were just told to stand in line and shut up. I worked several other union jobs in my life and found the same story each time.

I was forced to come to the conclusion that unions primary function is to provide a nice living and lots of influence to the bosses (and their underground "affiliates"), and act as a blanket to smother initiative and promote mediocrity.

Most unions are profoundly anti-competition. If a company needs to reorganize a union makes it very difficult to do so in any kind of sane way. Instead of getting rid of underperformers while keeping and rewarding those who deserve it, union rules almost always force them to get rid of the newest first. That's assinine and it's no way to remain competitive.

[Mike Henderson]

I shouldn't do this... but if I had been the cautious sort I never would have become one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children... "Semper Fi, do or die!"



Are you sure you don't mean "hold up American workers"? ...and yes, I can.

I'm proudly non-union now, but for years I worked for UPS. The Teamsters did nothing for me except extort money and hold me back. Union rules made it nearly impossible to promote anyone for performance. You were just told to stand in line and shut up. I worked several other union jobs in my life and found the same story each time.

I was forced to come to the conclusion that unions primary function is to provide a nice living and lots of influence to the bosses (and their underground "affiliates"), and act as a blanket to smother initiative and promote mediocrity.

Most unions are profoundly anti-competition. If a company needs to reorganize a union makes it very difficult to do so in any kind of sane way. Instead of getting rid of underperformers while keeping and rewarding those who deserve it, union rules almost always force them to get rid of the newest first. That's assinine and it's no way to remain competitive.
Don - I don't disagree with you and I'm certainly not a union advocate. But remember why we have unions. There was a time when labor was treated pretty badly and it's only because of unions that we have decent employee treatment today. Even companies without unions treat their employees decently because they don't want unions.

The problem unions have is finding a way to allow performance based promotion - their fear is that the employer will promote anti-union people and hold back pro-union people, which would eventually lead to the destruction of the union. And the union doesn't want to get in the business of ranking the employees. How would they do it? The only ranking that counts is the value to the employer.

I absolutely agree that union work rules often hinder productivity, and having to lay off by seniority instead of performance when bad times occur doesn't help the company recover. But it's hard to see an alternative for the union that doesn't destroy it.

Mike

[Greg Funk]

If and I mean IF.. everyone for the next four years bought nothing but traditional American cars the economy would take a extreme upswing because the demand would go up so high they would have to hire all the people back that took buyouts and then some.
I think they tried this in the Soviet Union a while back without much success. Lack of competition breeds mediocrity...

[David DeCristoforo]

Ha! What a "can of worms"! Are you just bored or something? Trying to stir up a little action? The truth is, with a "global" economy such as the one we have now, there are very few things actually made in America. And even the stuff that is incorporates parts or materials (switches, motor windings, steel cast iron parts, etc.) that are imported. The computer I'm working on right now is "made" by Apple in Cupertino right? WRONG! Not one bit of is made here. If you want pure "made in America" stuff these days, you are going to be buying very few tools or anything else for that matter.

[Henry Z Kaczmarczyk]

Made in America. That saying is now an oxymoron! There are so few products fully produced in the USA.

Don't blame me if your factory has closed and your job has been shipped overseas.
Blame the CEO's, the Politicians in DC and your state for wasting away taxpayer money.

CEO's only care about their stock options and will cut the production costs down to a minimum. Labor costs are usually the first and easiest to trim. Stock options for Management would be the last item to be cut.

Politicians are in the CEO's pocket, so they will pass any law to make outsourcing of US jobs sound like the US is reaping all of the benefits.

How can US workers compete with a foreign workforce that is willing to shovel "you know what" for pennies a day.

This trend in outsourcing jobs to cheaper labor pools started in manufacturing and has now spread into the mid level management.

Now the government is trying to allow more foreign workers into the US to cheapen the US labor pool.

Many of you creekers are in the construction field, in your own business.
How are you going to compete against a competitor who hires these foriegn workers and pays them below union scale.

Now don't blame me for buying Festool, Fien, Bosch.

I buy quality tools because, I only want to buy the tool once!
I buy Honda because of their repair record, I fix my own car.

[Don C Peterson]

Don - I don't disagree with you and I'm certainly not a union advocate. But remember why we have unions. There was a time when labor was treated pretty badly and it's only because of unions that we have decent employee treatment today. Even companies without unions treat their employees decently because they don't want unions.

The problem unions have is finding a way to allow performance based promotion - their fear is that the employer will promote anti-union people and hold back pro-union people, which would eventually lead to the destruction of the union. And the union doesn't want to get in the business of ranking the employees. How would they do it? The only ranking that counts is the value to the employer.

I absolutely agree that union work rules often hinder productivity, and having to lay off by seniority instead of performance when bad times occur doesn't help the company recover. But it's hard to see an alternative for the union that doesn't destroy it.

Mike

Like most major social revolutions, unions were an overblown response to a situation that was improving on its own. After all, working in a factory in a city was preferable to toiling on a farm, hence the great influx of people to the large metropolitan areas. Let's face it, by today's standards, life everywhere back then sucked! However, life was improving faster in the city than it was in the country. Ironically it was those improvements in life that allowed people the luxury of becoming dissatisfied with their lives. As a result, many embraced policies that slowed the rate of improvement...

As a response to the response (...round and round we go...) some busineses overreacted to what they (rightly) saw as a threat. I think it is no coincidence that the focus is always on the "brutality" of certain businesses rather than the thuggery and socialist and anarchist roots of the unions. Both sides were engaged in sneaky, underhanded, and sometimes brutal behavior.

We could probably have a long discussion on the history of unions, but whatever the historical rationale or function were, the net result of unions TODAY is overwhelmingly negative.

You are right, promotion or rewards based on merit would destroy unions. So unions don't so much have a problem figuring out how to allow it, their problem is how to avoid it completely. The two concepts are fundamentally incompatible. The premises upon which those two paths are built are diametrically opposed, and there is no way to reconcile them.

Like all forms of collectivisim, unions cannot afford any sort of meritocracy, all must be treated the same (some being more equal of course...) and we'll call it "fairness". "Fairness" being equality of outcomes, without regard to individual ability or effort. In my book that isn't fairness, it's oppression.

I can't sell my stuff for what Frank Klaus, or Sam Maloof, or James Krenov, or you for that matter can/did. Since that's "unfair" I need to form a union, force them to join, or quit. Of course, "fairness" would dictate that my comparitvely inferior and ugly creations bring the same compensation as theirs. There would soon be no Maloofs, and even my current level of ability would probably soon be seen as a waste of time.

And yes, I do believe that the choices are that stark. It's just that most folks I talk to don't realize the kind of assumptions and foundational principles are implicit in their "feel good" emotionalism.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Don, I don't know what else we would agree or disagree upon but your last two posts in this thread were absolutely right on the money with me. Very well said.

Bruce

[Greg Funk]

Like all forms of collectivisim, unions cannot afford any sort of meritocracy, all must be treated the same (some being more equal of course...) and we'll call it "fairness". "Fairness" being equality of outcomes, without regard to individual ability or effort. In my book that isn't fairness, it's oppression.

I can't sell my stuff for what Frank Klaus, or Sam Maloof, or James Krenov, or you for that matter can/did. Since that's "unfair" I need to form a union, force them to join, or quit. Of course, "fairness" would dictate that my comparitvely inferior and ugly creations bring the same compensation as theirs. There would soon be no Maloofs, and even my current level of ability would probably soon be seen as a waste of time.

And yes, I do believe that the choices are that stark. It's just that most folks I talk to don't realize the kind of assumptions and foundational principles are implicit in their "feel good" emotionalism.
I am the last person who would normally defend unions but if you're going to critisize them I think you need to get your facts straight.

First of all most unions do accomodate differentiation based on skill level; maybe not enough but certainly not everyone in a particular union is paid the same.

Secondly, unions were not formed to address your example above with the creation of artistic works. Historically, unions were formed when workers were exploited. For a good example compare the number of coal mining deaths in the US today with those of China. Without unions or some other external influence there is little pressure on companies to improve working conditions for manual labor.

Greg

[Gary Keedwell]

I am the last person who would normally defend unions but if you're going to critisize them I think you need to get your facts straight.

First of all most unions do accomodate differentiation based on skill level; maybe not enough but certainly not everyone in a particular union is paid the same.

Secondly, unions were not formed to address your example above with the creation of artistic works. Historically, unions were formed when workers were exploited. For a good example compare the number of coal mining deaths in the US today with those of China. Without unions or some other external influence there is little pressure on companies to improve working conditions for manual labor.

Greg
I was in the Union and everybody was paid the same.
External pressure on companies = OSHA
Gary K.:)

[Dave Malen]

I agree with you greg. Great craftsmen like Krenov,Maloof, Klaus, will always be able to sell to those who can afford their prices. Unions have their good points and bad. But in our society people have the right to bargain collectively. America is a great place!
Re: Cars. Really the most important issue is fuel economy, not country of origin. We all need to be buying the highest mileage cars we can afford. (Unless you tow a boat, or have a large familly).
Just my two cents,
Dave

[Don C Peterson]

I am the last person who would normally defend unions but if you're going to critisize them I think you need to get your facts straight.

First of all most unions do accomodate differentiation based on skill level; maybe not enough but certainly not everyone in a particular union is paid the same.

Secondly, unions were not formed to address your example above with the creation of artistic works. Historically, unions were formed when workers were exploited. For a good example compare the number of coal mining deaths in the US today with those of China. Without unions or some other external influence there is little pressure on companies to improve working conditions for manual labor.

Greg

You cannot possibly equate mine workers of the 19th century in a free society with the virtual slaves of a repressive communist regime. The former may have had a very limited number of options (by our standards) to choose from, the latter have one, obey and shut up or die.

The most powerful "external" influence to improve the lot of workers (or almost any other positive change) is competition. I contend that the formation of unions actually did much to slow the pace of the improvement that was already occurring. The credit that unions get is largely the result of a very effective and sustained propoganda compaign.

As to your other point, I agree that my example was not the most apt, but I was working off the cuff... and almost all hypothetical constructions fall apart at some level. The point that unions are antithetical to rewards based on merit is indisputable.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Interesting statement Dwain, but I don't know of any American made tools that are sub par these days, if there are, it's probably because they have some imported parts in them.

OK, nothing personal Chuck, but you've made a couple simplistic statements that just don't wash.

My Powermatic 64A is made in Taiwan. Pretty good saw, though I'm not "wowed" by it. But what really let me down w/ PM were two things:

1. The AccuFence (made in AMERICA, complete with red/white/blue flag) that came with the saw was welded up so crooked I could see it immediately. It was unusable.

2. So the seller sends me another one (made in the USA of course). The tailstock on this one is welded up such that it angles inward and won't fit over the rails. Again, so badly that I could immediately see what was wrong just looking at it.

3. The third time was the charm, and I got a fence that works. What wasn't the charm was PM's pathetic customer service; just getting them to even say "gee, we're sorry you are without use of your new saw for a month" was like pulling teeth. I even gave them a second chance when considering a bandsaw. I wrote them a letter stating my concern over QC issues and wasn't sure I was comfortable with another PM product. Never heard a word back. So they are off my list for future purchases.

You'll also note that FWW's review of cabinet saws showed the PM66 didn't have nearly as good QC (tolerances) as the PM2000 made in Asia.

So there you have it; American company and their American product with serious flaws. Get over the notion that American products are always better; its a fallacy.

[Gary Keedwell]

!
Re: Cars. Really the most important issue is fuel economy, not country of origin. We all need to be buying the highest mileage cars we can afford. (Unless you tow a boat, or have a large familly).
Just my two cents,
Dave[/quote]



What in the world has this got to do with this thread:confused: :confused: :mad:



Gary K.

[Chuck Lenz]

Very well said Henry.

[Greg Funk]

You cannot possibly equate mine workers of the 19th century in a free society with the virtual slaves of a repressive communist regime. The former may have had a very limited number of options (by our standards) to choose from, the latter have one, obey and shut up or die.

The most powerful "external" influence to improve the lot of workers (or almost any other positive change) is competition. I contend that the formation of unions actually did much to slow the pace of the improvement that was already occurring. The credit that unions get is largely the result of a very effective and sustained propoganda compaign.

As to your other point, I agree that my example was not the most apt, but I was working off the cuff... and almost all hypothetical constructions fall apart at some level. The point that unions are antithetical to rewards based on merit is indisputable.
Competition helps companies become successful but it does nothing for workers when they are performing relatively unskilled functions which don't require a long training period. You don't have to go back to the 19 century to find examples of companies who will abuse and exploit their workers. Just take a look at any sawmill in the last 50 years. The accident rate is several orders of magnitudes higher than what most office workers would tolerate.

The only time companies are motivated to improve conditions is if there are external controls (unions/govt regs) or if there is a shortage of labor. But since most of the jobs in a sawmill don't require much training there is an ample pool of labor who can perform the work. Those individuals often need someone to represent their interests. In many cases they are helpful in creating a 'middle class' which is not a bad thing for society.

And to stick to the original topic my tools are made in: USA, Canada, Germany, Japan, Italy.

Greg

[Don C Peterson]

Competition helps companies become successful but it does nothing for workers when they are performing relatively unskilled functions which don't require a long training period. You don't have to go back to the 19 century to find examples of companies who will abuse and exploit their workers. Just take a look at any sawmill in the last 50 years. The accident rate is several orders of magnitudes higher than what most office workers would tolerate.

The only time companies are motivated to improve conditions is if there are external controls (unions/govt regs) or if there is a shortage of labor. But since most of the jobs in a sawmill don't require much training there is an ample pool of labor who can perform the work. Those individuals often need someone to represent their interests. In many cases they are helpful in creating a 'middle class' which is not a bad thing for society.

And to stick to the original topic my tools are made in: USA, Canada, Germany, Japan, Italy.

Greg

Competition helps everyone. We all start off with few marketable skills. It is market competition that guides many of our decisions on which skills we should acquire. Those who ignore these market signals do so at their own peril.

Also let's not forget that many of those who pursue more dangerous jobs often do so intentionally. An office job, no matter how well compensated would drive them nuts.

Sure unions do benefit those who can't be bothered to learn a more marketable skill or to lazy to apply the skills they have to the greatest effect. Those with valuable skills and the drive to use them, are invariably hurt by unions whether they know it or not.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Guys let's keep political and controversial subjects out of this thread. Global warming has been beaten to death, and it has nothing to do with this thread or board. Let's stick to tools and lumber and live happily ever after.

[Greg Funk]

Sure unions do benefit those who can't be bothered to learn a more marketable skill or to lazy to apply the skills they have to the greatest effect. Those with valuable skills and the drive to use them, are invariably hurt by unions whether they know it or not.
Not everyone is as capable as you Don. For a variety of reasons (beyond laziness) many do not have the ability or opportunity to change their occupation. That is no reason for them to be exploited. By forming a union they are able to do what they want in a safe environment for a reasonable wage. That is not such a bad thing.

Greg

[Gary Keedwell]

There are alot of angles to this "global economy" but the only one that drives it is money. Unfortunately, or fortunately...depending on where you stand, the whole world is leaning on being capitalistic. Alot of companies say they have to send their manufacturing overseas to survive. Alot of companies do it for greed at the expense of their employees.

I worked for a company for 15 1/2 years that makes a product that has a virtual monopoly in the market. This company makes money at a percentage that would make Exxon drool with envy. The machine shop has gone from around 60 people to around 35. They make the workers multitask and run multiple machines at the same time without regard to safety or quality under the threat of sending the work to China.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the excuse of out-sourcing for just competitve reasons is not always the case. Money and greed are very powerful motivators.
Gary K.

[Keith Outten]

This thread has wandered way off of the "Where are your tools made" topic. After several attempts to Moderate this thread there is little hope of guiding it back toward its intended topic so it has been closed.

.