cabinet saw over slider?

[Chris McDowell]

Have patience with me while I try to explain my question. As a one man shop with a lot of work I have switched to outsourcing my doors at the suggestion of other cabinet makers in the same boat I'm in. I placed an order with my door supplier and my sheetgood supplier. Normally I meet the sheetgood supplier with the doors and whatever else I need about halfway between our shops.
Well he couldn't meet me for several days after my doors were ready for pickup, so I thought what the hay. I have always wanted to see my door suppliers facility and had been invited to do so on several occasions. While there on the grand tour of their shop I noticed the usual lineup of Unisaws and one Sawstop. A few Tigerstops for chopsaws, but no panel saw of any kind.
Keep in mind they also make cabinets as well as doors. I commented it was unusual to see a shop of their size with just cabinet saws. They told me they had a slider, but it was in the corner covered up. I asked why in the world would you do that. The owner said I bought that thing with the notion the guys would really like the sliding table and the ability to set the stops on the crosscut. He figured they would just fly through the plywood.
Everyone tried it and everyone hated it. They said it was way too slow. Not one person would use it over any of the cabinet saws. I was stunned. Never heard of anyone preferring a cabinet saw over a slider. Especially a commercial shop cutting up a lot of sheets. Has anybody else ever heard of somebody going back from a slider to a cabinet saw?
I still can't imagine why anyone wouldn't like the slider, but I guess we all have our preferences. Just curious if any of you had heard anything similar.

Chris

[frank shic]

chris, what kind of slider do they have? do they know how to use it? cutting sheet goods on a slider is much different than cutting them on a cabinet saw. if i were in business, i would go for the CNC router instead of wasting all the labor: cutting (corner cabinets anyone?), boring and drilling cabinet parts.

[Chris McDowell]

Frank I really didn't get into what kind of slider they had. I was in a rush to get back. As far as CNC goes it is definitely a great thing, but there are a lot of peripheral things that must be considered. What kind of software package, vacuum hold down, learning curve, power upgrade to the shop, and those are just a few. I know a few guys with CNC and they used them for more complex work like curves and elipses. For linear work it is tough to beat a slider or if you need to go really fast a Striebig.
I'm not knocking CNC, it's the future but there is a lot to consider.

Chris

[Joe Jensen]

I spent a day with an Onsrud dealer here in Phoenix. The very heavy duty 5 by 10 foot machine with SW license for cabinets was around $1600 a month. Seemed very cheap for the output it could deliver. He claimed the a SW person would run around $16-20 an hour and then someone to feed the machine. In one demo cut an arched top entry door in like 10 mintutes. The kitchen cabinet SW went from 3D client review straight to the cut list.

I'm not a pro but I dream of giving up the High Tech 80 hour a week career for a woodworking bus. If I did, I think I'd build the business model around a CNC. The idea of replacing a couple of labor heads with a $1600 a month lease is very attractive. Also, reduction of errors and rework would be a key plus..joe

[Chris McDowell]

I'm hardly an expert on CNC. I have talked to a number of people using them and they all say it depends on your volume of material being cut. I'm not going to turn this into a full blown CNC thread. There are a lot of guys over at other sites far more qualified than me to speak about this. But for me after running all the numbers a Cnc is not justified at this time. Now the Tecnomax 315, that's another story.

[frank shic]

Think about it: one CNC router, one edgebander and the phone number to conestoga and you can run a fairly efficient ONE man business! While the router is cutting the parts, you can be edgebanding the previous parts and assemblying them. The other nice thing is that you could have the router bore just the holes that you need instead of shotgunning the entire end panel full of holes making assembly of drawer stacks even more efficient (duh, which hole do i use now???).

I wouldn't mind having a slider as a hobbyist, though, since I'm still relatively young (34) and I can lift an entire sheet on to the saw by myself. I don't know if I'll be doing that in another 30 years but hey frank klausz was lifting full sheets of ply in his last video on biscuit jointing so maybe there's some hope!

[Allen Bookout]

Never heard of anyone preferring a cabinet saw over a slider. Especially a commercial shop cutting up a lot of sheets. Has anybody else ever heard of somebody going back from a slider to a cabinet saw?
I still can't imagine why anyone wouldn't like the slider, but I guess we all have our preferences. Just curious if any of you had heard anything similar.

Chris

I am interested in hearing more on the subject of the origional post.

[Bob Hoffmann]

It seems to me that it would depend on what type of cuts they are making. The slider excels in cross cuts -- but when I was in a millwork shop, most crosscuts were made on a panel saw -- very easy to set up a stop and cut multiple pieces per cut. The TS was used when we were cutting rabbits on the ends of drawer parts, and ripping cuts.

It could be that there are jigs set-up already for the TSs and it is faster to use them then to set-up the slider. It could also be the amount of time to walk the slider back and forth -- smaller movement on a TS -- a few seconds when cutting hundreds of pieces can add up. It could also be familiarity with the machine (or lack there of). If they did not have their system set up so that motion is minimized, placement of stock on and off the saw is easy, etc, it could mean that it would take longer to use the slider, with little benefit -- the TS method still cut good enough so that it would fit together.

The slider would also be good at repeating cuts that were not all the same length -- while a TS may be bettter at long runs with the same cut -- it kind of depends on what is being cut. It could also me the pain of changing the blade to dado and back again.

It could be that the shop was "old school" and not willing to be inventive. BTW, I would have used the slider -- I have a small one at home and would not be without one. The miilwork shop used an excalaber slider on a powermatic TS -- and I used if I would do any crosscuts, but I saw others do them againest the fence, on pieces that were too narrow for me to feel safe putting against the fence.

[Todd Solomon]

It could be that the shop was "old school" and not willing to be inventive.

I suspect that this is the case.

When I was a young mechanical engineer in '89, I went to work for Walt Disney Imagineering. The company had three drafting systems available: Drafting boards; AutoCAD 2D drafting; and Pro/Engineer 3D true solid modelling. It was an interesting study in how people can get proficient and comfortable with what they learned on. The "old masters" were still loyal to their drafting boards, saying that they had no need for a CAD system. The majority were using AutoCAD 2D, which is really just a glorified drafting board, that is easier to edit. But the younger crowd, like myself, chose Pro/Engineer. Having been trained in all three methods in college, and having equal experience, the 3D CAD system was clearly superior to the other methods by all measures (other than the learning curve, which I had already conquered). But the old timers were comfortable with the drafting boards, despite their deficiencies.

It may be that the type of work that this shop did was well suited to cabinet saws. But it also may be that they were willing to overlook a more efficient sliding saw, because they were more comfortable and experienced with the traditional cabinet saw. After processing a large stack of sheet goods on my slider for my last cabinet project, I wouldn't want to be without it.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

I agree with sentiment that it's likely that there is an adversion to change and learning new methods.

[Joe Jensen]

I agree that the resistance to change may be it, but it's also likely that that most workers there are not "seasoned veterans".

Having not used a slider, but dreaming of the day when I have a shop large enough for one, the original post is very intriguing.

I can see how a slider is vastly superior to a cabinet saw for crosscutting sheet goods.

I can see how the cut quality is better for a slider, especially with a properly tuned saw. This would be great for when I need to edge sheet goods with solid stock.

I can't see how a slider would be faster, and for a cabinet shop, speed and minimizing labor are everything. Think about it. Cabinets, especially face frame cabinets are designed so the cut quality on the sheet goods doesn't really matter. I'm sure a vertical panel saw leaves an edge plenty clean enough to edgeband. Seems to me that if the cabinet sides for a job are all the same depth, it would be fastest to set the Biesemeyer fence for that width, and just toss sheets through.

Is a slider faster for carcase construction? Would it save time or heads?

PS: I have a Dewalt 14" RAS set up with a Biesemeyer fence system as a dedicated cutoff station for 90 degree cuts up to 17" wide. I have no panel saw, so crosscutting sheet goods is an issue. I used a guided circular saw for those cuts which is slow, and fussy to get true 90 degree cuts.

[Gary Curtis]

During the 18 months while I waited for my new house and shop to be built, I studied sliders. One way of doing that was to go 2 miles to Anderson Plywood in Culver City, California. They had an Altendorf slider surrounded by 3 huge roll-up garage doors. Lots of space on all sides, and open to the outside air. I could sit in the parking lot and watch the guys work that saw for hours. I needed to learn before I bought my own.

I'm moved, now, and have my own sliding table saw. A 5HP General. Over Christmas I went back south and stopped off to say hello to the owner of Anderson. The Altendorf was gone, and in its place was a 14" General Cabinet saw. I asked the owner what happened.

His workers didn't like the Altendorf. They claimed the set up and calibration were too finicky. They didn't like the way the machine impeded their movement from one side to the other. I couldn't believe my ears.

There is a learning curve to overcome for beginners. If a user is uncomfortable with the equipment, that could lead to disaster. Another important thing is to carefully calculate how big a slider you want. They can overpower a small space. At Anderson, all they did was tear down 4x8 sheets of plywood. It's still hard for me to understand. An Altendorf!

I intereviewed owners of Knapp/MiniMax/Felder and visited their shops before I bought mine. You should do the same, and remember to match the machine to the work you intend doing.


Gary Curtis

[Keith Outten]

I cast my vote for CNC already.

Joe, for a one man shop a ShopBot CNC router at say 12 to 15 grand would be paid for real quick and eliminate the $1600 per month lease. There are options now for the one man shops that is worth the time to investigate. I paid for my ShopBot the first week it was installed and I work alone. There are other CNC manufacturers out there that have comparable machines, do some homework before you sign a lease. I expect that a CNC router is safer to operate than just about any table saw on the market. You don't even have to be in the room when its running :)

.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Chris,
I actually do not find that alarming. I could easily see how once someone gets use to performing certain functions one way all other ways are counter productive.

I will be the first one to admit that I severely over-bought for my "real world needs" ;) Is my slider nice and accurate? yes but it is not necessary. I could accomplish many of the things I do using other machines. Would I ever want to go back to a cabinet saw? no not by choice because i enjoy using my slider and feel safer doing so.

Now I am a one-man shop that does special pieces once-in-awhile, I no longer do woodworking for a living. Speed is not important to me in production but accuracy, style, design, proportions and keeping all my fingers are. I think the pieces I design and create turn out quite nice but it is not due to the machinery I have but because of my desire and drive to have a piece look a certain way. There are plenty of people out there that produce beautiful work with far less machines than I have.

Machines in a money producing environment have to provide a ROI. IF they do not they are useless. If the employees are not comfortable with a certain machine, no matter how expensive, fancy or technologically advanced, then it just simply will not be worth it. If you can make $50 profit using a $10 dollar tool why spend $100 on another tool to make that same $50? It seems profit margins are next to nothing in most of the woodworking industry. You need to find cheaper ways to produce what it needed and that is it.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...if any of you had heard anything similar..."

Does not surprise me at all. I have said many times in one way or another that sliding panel saws and conventional table saws are not altogether interchangeable. The sliding saw takes some getting used to and it most definitely has it's shortcomings.

In my experience, these are really better manned by two persons in order to avoid all of the "walking around" that a single operator ends up having to do. It seems like that would kind of defeat the idea of these machines being more efficient for panel processing. However, I have also found that with two people, one on the "infeed" side and one to "tail off" there is a decent enough net gain and the slider will allow you do do many things not possible (or at least not easily accomplished) on a "fixed" saw.

In any case, if you have worked exclusively on a conventional table saw for a long time, it's going to take a while to get used to the panel saw and, yes, surprising or not, many simply do not like them.

I don't think it has squat to do with being "old school". Not all new technology has to be embraced by everyone. I am much happier cutting on a slider than I would be watching a CNC machine do the work for me. Does that make me "old school"? Or does it simply mean that I would rather be working with wood than programming a computer?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

You were stunned? I am flabbergasted.

Clearly something was wrong. They either had the table way out of alignment and hated fussing with it or are all just stuck in their ways

Either way: Find out what kind it is when it was made and offer them like scrap metal prices for it if you think it's a good buy.


Bear in mind that older sliders like MM and Rojeck had somewhat sketchy reputations while the companies were still hammering out the bugs.

If it's ten years old be cautious. If it's 3 you may looking at a steal.

[Chris McDowell]

I have no doubt everyone there was so used to using a cabinet saw that a slider probably felt awkward and intimidating. I've been to a lot of other shops in my area and they are the first ones that ever went back from a slider. But to be honest not a lot of shops in my area have any kind of panel saw period. A big shop just bought 7 Sawstops. Here cabinet saws still rule.

Just interests me seeing how other people look at tooling differently. I honestly don't think the average person or shop ,in my area at least, has any idea what a slider can really do. I could see a great improvement in time on just straight lining face frame stock much less sheet processing.

Cliff, it was a thought for a moment, but something as complicated as a slider I would hate to buy used.

Paul, amen. There is a world of difference in enjoying woodworking as a hobby and making money at it. Best advice I ever got was from an older man who asked me what I was in business for. I said to make cabinets, countertops, etc. He said no you aren't . You are in business to make money not anything else. I have never forgotten that.

Chris

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, it was a thought for a moment, but something as complicated as a slider I would hate to buy used.

They are not complicated at all.

When I got mine I assembled, set it up, and trued it up without referring to the manual but long enough to realize that the manual was worthless.

Adjusting the true on the sliding table is really quite straightforward. There is (1) the angle to the blade (.003) over the run of the table away from the blade); (2) slope respective the cast iron (two axii) of the table (a straight edge is all you need) to the cast iron table an indicator is helpful but not necessary; and (3) table height a few thou above the cast iron or not. Many guys prefer as much as 0.010". I prefer 0.005" or less above the cast iron.

You achieve all these adjustments by loosening and tightening (in a pattern) the several stand off nuts and bolts under the sliding table.


The one thing you want to avoid is a banana sliding table. Once bent they are wrecked. Again a straight edge, peering line of sight, and a couple of winding sticks is all you need.

I say get yourself back there and ask a few questions.

[frank shic]

guys, you should check out another thread that's on woodweb entitled "cabinet saw center of shop"

[Ed Blough]

I have seen sliders in cabinet shops sitting idle as cabinet and even contractor saws were being used. When I asked no one had a good reason but from what I saw the problem was the slider required so much clear area.
If everything was picked up and out of the way there was a huge amount of floor space around the slider to allow for the carriage. Doing the course of the day things got moved into that space and soon you couldn't use the saw for the stuff in the way.
On the Cabinet and contractor saw all that was needed was clear table top.

What I'm finding interesting is the number of cabinet shop and cabinet supply wholesalers and solid counter suppliers that are switching from panel saw, cabinet saws and large RAS to a guided saw system.

One wholesaler selling cabinet grade ply, laminate and solid counter material has an expensive panel saw, 14" or 16" RAS and Unisaw all sitting idle since they got a guided saw system.

The owner raves about the system and the guys on the floor will walk past one of the other saws to get the guided saw. I understand the guided saw system had two additional paybacks. One the insurance will be lowered if they rid the shop of the other saws and two OSHA/EPA will reduce dust collection requirement to direct connection on the saw. They were pressuring the owner into a full air scrubbing system to insure none of the solid counter dust left the shop.

[Chris McDowell]

Ya Frank I started that thread too. It was just a question a couple of us had been kicking around and curiosity got the best of me and I had to ask.
I will say I love a slider and was supposed to get mine very soon, but I was involved in an accident today and my pickup was completely destroyed. That may change plans and put a slider on the backburner.