First Sale-How to price?

[Jerry Ingraham]

I've been turning bowls for a couple years now and picked up pen turning this spring. The pens have really been a blast and are very well received by those who receive them. Almost all of my wood has been free, so most of my bowls are cost free (except for my time and a little finish cost). We live in the apple capitol of the world and the supply of fruitwood is almost inexhaustable.

After dinner a few weeks ago, my wife and I walked into a small decorator shop/stationery store. I purposefully went in to see if they had any turned pens for sale. They did not. All they had were some machine made, mass produced pens. When I told the lady (owner) what I do, she got very excited and wanted me to bring some pens in for consignment. We also discussed bowls, and of course, she would like some of those as well!

Now this may sound great but I'm struggling with how to price these things, especially the bowls. The pens aren't so bad, probably $20-30 for slimlines, and $30+ for cigars and others. The bowls, however, I have no idea how to price. As mentioned, I have nearly nothing in cost for these things but don't want to give them away either. Nor do I believe that my work is some sort of elite, art gallery quality!:o Any way, I'm hoping that you all can give me some advice as to how to price things.

By the way, the proceeds are going toward the introduction of mustard into my shop!

Thanks,
Jerry

[Curt Fuller]

I think you should consider pricing somewhat higher than you've suggested. Nicely turned wood pens are one of a kind keepsakes that are worth more than 20-30 bucks. Maybe the slimlines are $30 pens but the two piece pens are worth at least $50. As for bowls, they depend on size, character of the wood, etc., but don't undersell yourself.

[George Guadiane]

I've been turning bowls for a couple years now and picked up pen turning this spring. The pens have really been a blast and are very well received by those who receive them. Almost all of my wood has been free, so most of my bowls are cost free (except for my time and a little finish cost). We live in the apple capitol of the world and the supply of fruitwood is almost inexhaustable.

After dinner a few weeks ago, my wife and I walked into a small decorator shop/stationery store. I purposefully went in to see if they had any turned pens for sale. They did not. All they had were some machine made, mass produced pens. When I told the lady (owner) what I do, she got very excited and wanted me to bring some pens in for consignment. We also discussed bowls, and of course, she would like some of those as well!

Now this may sound great but I'm struggling with how to price these things, especially the bowls. The pens aren't so bad, probably $20-30 for slimlines, and $30+ for cigars and others. The bowls, however, I have no idea how to price. As mentioned, I have nearly nothing in cost for these things but don't want to give them away either. Nor do I believe that my work is some sort of elite, art gallery quality!:o Any way, I'm hoping that you all can give me some advice as to how to price things.

By the way, the proceeds are going toward the introduction of mustard into my shop!

Thanks,
Jerry
For starters, you have to set aside the idea of "free wood." There could easily come a day when the wood you want ISN'T free, then your costs go way up and it is ALWAYS harder to raise your prices (no matter how reasonable you are trying to be) than it is to lower them if the market won't carry your pricing structure.
Go to other places that actually sell items like yours and compare. Be honest, is the work and/or wood better than yours, bigger, smaller?
Once you get a baseline, look at the shop you are going to sell in. How does it compare to the other shops. Is it as nice, nicer? Each of those things should be considered (and lots more, I am sure) before you arrive at a price, then agree on a percentage that you will receive and a payment schedule for any sold items.
Good Luck!

[Patrick Taylor]

Couple of things I've heard, but not a lot of experience myself:
1. some people use 3x materials for pricing pens. It's a quick way of adding in your shop time and miscellaneous costs. Others itemize the materials, time by an hourly rate, utility, shop and tool costs averaged over x number of pens per time period, etc.

2. For bowls, I've heard $10/inch as a starting point, but that seems to high for a simple straight-grained bowl, and too low for a wild burl. It might work as a middle ground though.

Congrats on the recognition! Keep in mind the difference between your price and the retail price (after the consignment markup) and don't cheat yourself. I think you have to let the retail price be higher than your direct price, simply because they have additional overhead to cover.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Jerry you have got some good advice. Do not sell yourself short. My slimlines go for $30 and cigar, Sierra's, El Grande's are $50 up. Some of my fountain pen and pencil sets go for $125. For utility bowls I go $5 per inch and show bowls as I call them are $7 per inch. Sales are ok especially in this Agriculturial community. George gave you some good advice. It is easier to lower your price than to raise it.

[Robert McGowen]

Hi Jerry,

Congratulations on your new business! The only thing that I would add is that you need to make sure that you have a clear picture of selling the items yourself at a show or such and having a business sell them for you. The business owner is going to add anywhere from 50-100% on top of what he paid you for the item. He will be selling the pens that he purchased from you for $25 to the public for $50. The difference is, of course, to cover his profit, time, insurance, employee costs, theft, etc., etc. My best bet would be to sell them off of some sort of set commission so that the higher the price the shop sells them for, the more you in turn make. This in turn will allow the shop owner to carry more items of yours as he doesn't really have anything to lose except shop space and everything to gain if the item sells well. Just my thoughts. Good luck!

[Kevin McPeek]

I won't add much to what others have said except for what I heard in a demonstration by Stuart Batty. The more useless the bowl, the more you can charge for it.

[Ernie Kuhn]

Hi Jerry,
Adding to what Kevin suggested, placing your items with a retailer on commission might be just the ticket. You should discuss "list price" with retailer and what you are willing to take at "wholesale". In fairness to the retailer, if you sell at craft shows or privately/over the internet, your selling price should not be less than the retailer will sell for e.g. don't undercut the retailer on "private" sales. I have been told that some galleries work on a 40/60 split, 40% to gallery, 60% to artist. And, as previously stated, your cost of material (it isn't always going to be free) should not be part of the equation unless your are purchasing some exotics. More importantly, what's the "value" of the item in your local market? Again, discussion with the retailer might be in order.
I would be interested to see what "turns out" (sorry for the pun) since I have a couple of local wineries interested in bottle stoppers.
Ernie

[Larry McCumber]

For utility bowls I go $5 per inch and show bowls as I call them are $7 per inch.

Bernie,
Is that diameter, circumference, or heigth?

Thanks,
Larry

[William Bachtel]

can't speak for Bernie, but I believe he means dia.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bernie,
Is that diameter, circumference, or heigth?

Thanks,
Larry

Yes Larry that is diameter.

Here in town I am talking with the local floral/craft store. She told me she would like me to bring some turnings down to display. She said we could go 25/75 split. I thought that was pretty good. The local arts council would like me to bring some stuff down and they want 30/70 split.

[Frank Kobilsek]

Jerry
Congrats on your pending arrangement. But you come to the hardest part of the abyss. Learning the skew is easier than learning to price!

I do something like Bernie, Dia" plus Height" times Value of wood per board foot. Then I adjust from there for the difficulty and quality of the piece. This helps with the plain maple versus the maple burl question.

Good Luck

Frank

[George Guadiane]

After reading the "Per inch / per..." I'd like to add this:
The pieces I turn, whether single wood or segmented pieces are done with a certain "love" :) (care). When they are finished, most of them become like children (family members) to me. I want to make sure they are going to a good home, and/or if I am going to "sell them into slavery" :eek: that I get a good price for them (it makes them feel better about getting sold). The more I like a piece, the higher the price, no matter what the size, shape or wood. I am prepared to live with a lot of what I do, I take it out between shows and display it in my home so that I can pick it up and feel it in my hands between times. :cool: :p ;) :o :D
The things I don't really care about are donated or given to strangers (or people I don't like).
Mine is (I am SURE) an odd way of looking at the pricing thing, but, like people, no two are the same and each should be valued on it's own merit.
I also donate some of the really "good" pieces, because they go to worthy causes and theoretically, good homes.

[Bill Lantry]

I think most people sell themselves short. I was at simon pearse in Vermont a few weeks ago, and saw an 18" bowl going for 500 bucks. Many other large bowls were a couple hundred a piece. Even their website has some you can order for over 15 dollars an inch:

http://www.simonpearce.com/navSubDepartment.aspx?DeptName=DeptFurniture&Name=SubWBowls

they seem to sell well. Another way to think about it: look at pottery barn. They mass sell rustic wooden bowls for the stated 10$ an inch. It's like finding a piece of furniture at a retail furniture outlet. The same piece of furniture, custom made, would be what? 2, 3, 4 times the price? And well worth it!

Of course, it all depends on region and local market. But I have the impression there are people out there who undersell themselves, which in turn hurts the pro turners... :(

Thanks,

Bill

[George Guadiane]

I think most people sell themselves short. I was at simon pearse in Vermont a few weeks ago, and saw an 18" bowl going for 500 bucks. Many other large bowls were a couple hundred a piece. Even their website has some you can order for over 15 dollars an inch:

http://www.simonpearce.com/navSubDepartment.aspx?DeptName=DeptFurniture&Name=SubWBowls

they seem to sell well. Another way to think about it: look at pottery barn. They mass sell rustic wooden bowls for the stated 10$ an inch. It's like finding a piece of furniture at a retail furniture outlet. The same piece of furniture, custom made, would be what? 2, 3, 4 times the price? And well worth it!

Of course, it all depends on region and local market. But I have the impression there are people out there who undersell themselves, which in turn hurts the pro turners... :(

Thanks,

Bill
I don't know Bill, I think I would INCLUDE the professional turners. I see a lot of nice work that if I had done it, I would have put a much higher price on it. As I said at first, it is easier to lower your prices than it is to raise them..
(I don't mean this as an insult, only an observation) Whether desperate to sell something, so that they can say that they did, or in desperate financial need, or unaware of the marketplace, or of the value of local hand made up scale products, MANY turners (and other crafters/artists) undervalue their stuff.
The Wal-Mart (pottery barn) mentality is grooming the world to hold themselves and what they do ("welcome to Wal-Mart"), as pretty much without value,and certainly without a growing marketplace. They seem to be grooming us to only think in terms of price, and not even consider value or economic impact. It makes THEM the most money and leaves people like us with fewer and fewer outlets for ANY custom/hand made/crafted things.
(I rant because I love)

[Dennis Peacock]

Of course, it all depends on region and local market.
Thanks,

Bill

Yes'sir.....And an example of my present and past selling experiences:

1. Most people "wanted" one of my pens, but didn't want to pay more than $10 for ANY pen. I used wood from Arizona Silhouette (pure eye candy) and was able to get $15 for standard pens. On a rare occassion, I run across someone that wanted a "special" pen and my prices were in the $60 to $120 range.....pen kit was like $35, wood was $9..so I already had $44 in just wood and the pen kit.

2. Selling bowls around here is like trying to sell "snake oil". I placed about 10 of my bowls at an annual event that brings in around 60,000 people per year and I had no bowl priced over $35. Not a single one sold. If I use the rule of $5 per inch of diameter, then my stuff gets priced out of most any market for local selling.

Geographical and cultural setting has "everything" to do with how your "market" is. The mentality here for custom pens, furniture, and the like is if it's not at a Wal-Mart price, then I ain't gonna buy it. Now you understand why my stuff normally goes "cheap". :o :(

[Reed Gray]

I retail my personal sized bowls (in the 6 to 8 inch diameter range) for $20 to $40 depending on wood, color, figure, etc. Family and party sized bowls (10 to 16 inhc diameter) around $50 to $400, again depending on color, size, and wood. This is a retail price. I seldom sell to galleries because they want things on consignment, and I have enough trouble keeping stuff in stock. I do sell to one gallery in L.A. and he is willing to pay cash and my retail prices, and he keystones (doubles) my price in his store. Value depends on where you sell. I charge less here in town than I do when I go to Seattle, or down to California. Some galleries will consign on 60/40 , some at 50/50, some at 60/40. Depends on how fancy the gallery is. Some also don't want you to sell your stuff any where else in their area. You could also ask the gallery what they think they can sell the items for, and base your price on that. No really cut and dried rules on what to do, but as others said, it is easier to lower your prices, than it is to raise them.
robo hippy

[Jerry Ingraham]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies! I think that I can glean enough from this thread to find a jumping off point. I have to do something cause ever since the conversation with the shop owner, I've been turning pens and bowls "for inventory";) but they keep ending up on our built-in shelving! Everytime I bring another one in, my wife asks if I'm ever going to take any down to the store! It's odd, you turn them with full intention of selling and then you finish and think " I don't know, this is pretty special maybe I should keep it"! I'm just gonna have to bring a few down there and talk with her about an arrangement. I'll let you know what I decide on and we'll see if it's successful or not!
Jerry

[George Guadiane]

Wow! It's odd, you turn them with full intention of selling and then you finish and think " I don't know, this is pretty special maybe I should keep it"!
Jerry
Those are the "children" I was talking about.

[Glenn Hodges]

Jerry, a lot of people make and sell pens. I know a well know turner which posts here ocasionally and he said he started out making a living by turning pens but the Chinese flooded the market with their cheap imports, and ruined it for him so he switched to other types of turning. I have often read that customed architectual tuning is the most profitable type of turning. When it comes to bowl turning it is difficult for a home bowl turner to compete with a factory. The factories turn them out cheap, and sell them to stores cheap. Lets face it there are a lot of people looking for cheap stuff out there so you must find the market for your product. I have found that I make a little money by making mine different from what the customer will see in the craft stores or Walmart. I do not try to compete with these places. Mine are unique becaues of this, and because I like to be different. Because mine are different I can charge what I want. Some customers call my work art, I do not refer to my finished product as such, but I do not argue with the customer with money in their hand. I have won prizes at art shows, and this never hurts when it comes to pricing my work. Most of my bowls are never used for eating, but a lot of them could be used for that purpose. I tell my students that if they learn one thing from me is that that should make each piece unique, so unique the person buying it will never see anything like it in another store. My price is based on the rarity of the wood, and the time I put into making the piece. I think you could use this in making unusual pens. I hope this has been helpful.

[Jerry Ingraham]

Glenn,

Thanks for your input. I agree that one cannot compete with mass merchandising, nor do I wish to. I am only hoping to produce and sell enough to continue funding my shop and improvements within. I do not make any utility bowls at this time but make decorative items instead. Most of my bowls are of distinct shape or natural edged-simply for display/decorating.

We are, as I mentioned before, in the heart of tree fruit country so my niche is locally harvested fruitwood and some hardwoods (walnut is quite prevalent). Many businesses here capitalize on the fruit industry to our tourists and locals so I'm focusng on art form fruitwood bowls primarily.

The same goes for my pens, though I do have quite a few made up from scraps of hardwood left over from flatwood projects. The store owner wants to focus on orchard related items and I'm only happy to oblige by turning apple, pear, cherry, and walnut bowls and pens. I hope that this niche will provide me the revenue to further my turning education and equipment upgrades!

I'll take a few pictures tonight and get everyone's critical input tomorrow!

Jerry

[Owen Lowe]

For starters, you have to set aside the idea of "free wood." There could easily come a day when the wood you want ISN'T free, then your costs go way up and it is ALWAYS harder to raise your prices (no matter how reasonable you are trying to be) than it is to lower them if the market won't carry your pricing structure.

Agreed. Many turners deceive themselves claiming their wood is free - that only occurs when someone actually gives the wood, prepared and ready to turn. They don't take into account (at the minimum): the chain saw; chains; gas & oil; transportation costs; Anchorseal; non-turning time; and the strenuous physical labor when harvesting trees. Let's say someone else has done this portion and out of the goodness of their heart will keep you supplied in raw stock... do you have a band saw? Extra blades? More Anchorseal/wax? All needed to prepare the raw sections into turnable stock.

Even though one may not fork over any green for the wood itself, the costs of a majority of "free wood" are far from free.