Handcut dovetails

[Don C Peterson]

I have done a few handcut dovetails before, but have always been a bit disapointed with the results. Initially I decided to use Japanese saws because the idea of cutting on the pull stroke just made sense to me. I've had several years of semi frunstration with at least 5 different brands and types of Japanese saws.

So TLOML requested that I make a small sewing cabinet with a couple of small drawers. Just the kind of situation that calls for some half-blind dovetails. I was still getting disapointing results so I went to the local Woodcraft store and adopted a LN dovetail saw.

I took it home and immediately I noticed that I was able to cut right to the line with amazing control. The only minor problem I had was starting. It's much easier to start by pulling, but the end result was vastly better. I wouldn't put them on par with some of the amazing work I've seen by some Creekers, but they're good enough that I'll post pics...

I'm totally happy with the LN saw.

[harry strasil]

Don, if you use a sharp knife or a chisel and cut a small notch in the waste are to be cut out, it gives you a little flat bottomed notch to start the saw in. It doesn't take much time to do and really improves starting the saw easily.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=40686&highlight=table+tutoral -the 8th picture down from the top shows the procedure.

[Don C Peterson]

Thanks Harry, that makes sense and I'll give it a shot next time.

[Ken Werner]

Hi Don,

I've been making the transition from pull to push also. I find that making the cut with a stiffer blade and fewer passes feels better, and is more accurate. Very nice cabinet for TLOYL.

Looking at the image of your LN saw, the handle looks a little red. Do you know what wood it is? I thought they come in curly maple....

Ken

[lowell holmes]

I have the LN saw and had trouble starting the cut also. I learned to lighten my first stroke, just barely kissing the wood.

[Terry Bigelow]

I'm on the pull to push transition as well. I started with the Japanese saw and have since moved to a LN saw and now have rehabbed/sharpened some old Disstons. Just feels right in your hand doesn't it?

[Don C Peterson]

Hi Don,

I've been making the transition from pull to push also. I find that making the cut with a stiffer blade and fewer passes feels better, and is more accurate. Very nice cabinet for TLOYL.

Looking at the image of your LN saw, the handle looks a little red. Do you know what wood it is? I thought they come in curly maple....

Ken

When I would cut with the Japanese saws I would cut to the line nearest to me, but the leading edge of the saw (on on the other side of the wood) seemed to wander uncontrollably. With the western style saws I wonder if my accuracy doesn't have something to do with the fact that the leading edge of the saw is the one that you see and control... Just a guess, at any rate, I just know that on the very first cut the LN felt great and cut straight.

The handle is curly Maple, but it is kind of reddish, I didn't think that LN put any pigment on their handles, but I've never seen Maple that color either... At the Woodcraft store they had one dovetail and one carcass saw, both of them had the same color of handle.

[harry strasil]

having never used a pull saw and not wanting to, it looks to me like the round handle would be difficult to keep orientated and having no stiff back would tend to let the very flexible blade wander a bit.

just my 1¢ worth

[Jon Toebbe]

I use Japanese saws with some success, having followed Mark Singer's recommendations and advice. One trick that I've found to be very helpful it to start the cut on the far side of the board, rather than the near side. Pulling very gently, a tooth will grab into the work but the pressure isn't high enough to cut yet. That "snagged" tooth puts the rest of the blade between it and the handle under tension, keeping everything nice and straight. Once the force of my pull is great enough to start the cut, everything seems to line up.

Paradoxically, the saws cut faster and cleaner the more gently I handle them. It's common advice: relax your grip, let the teeth do the work, the weight of the blade is enough -- common advice for western and japanese saws. But it took me a while to trust that advice all the way into my hands.

In any event, my inexpensive Tashiro's do the job for now. Maybe someday when there's a bit more geld in the family coffer I'll be asking for your advice on high-end western saws. That Lie-Nielsen is a real beauty. And for that matter, so are your dovetails!

[Don C Peterson]

I use Japanese saws with some success, having followed Mark Singer's recommendations and advice. One trick that I've found to be very helpful it to start the cut on the far side of the board, rather than the near side. Pulling very gently, a tooth will grab into the work but the pressure isn't high enough to cut yet. That "snagged" tooth puts the rest of the blade between it and the handle under tension, keeping everything nice and straight. Once the force of my pull is great enough to start the cut, everything seems to line up.

Paradoxically, the saws cut faster and cleaner the more gently I handle them. It's common advice: relax your grip, let the teeth do the work, the weight of the blade is enough -- common advice for western and japanese saws. But it took me a while to trust that advice all the way into my hands.

In any event, my inexpensive Tashiro's do the job for now. Maybe someday when there's a bit more geld in the family coffer I'll be asking for your advice on high-end western saws. That Lie-Nielsen is a real beauty. And for that matter, so are your dovetails!

Thanks. I hope I didn't come across as "badmouthing" Japanese saws. I know that many folks get wonderful results using them. As much as I like them in principle, I could just never get consistent results. I was just so amazed and pleased with the results I got using the LN that I thought I'd share my experience. FWIW I use my Japanese chisels to pare things up realy nice...

[Jon Toebbe]

I hope I didn't come across as "badmouthing" Japanese saws.
No offense given, none taken. I'm just starting to think that I'm going to have to try out some of these old-fangled western saws, too. :)

[Roy Wall]

Don,

Nice looking cabinet and dovetails....great!

I just use the weight of the blade to start the first few strokes on the LN...starting the cut near the very end of the blade and it goes pretty smooth. VERY Light pressure is the key.

The saw will cut better and better over time....gets the burrs worn off I suppose...
Again - nice work!

[Wilbur Pan]

Paradoxically, the saws cut faster and cleaner the more gently I handle them.

This is very true. One thing that helped me out a lot with Japanese saws is to start at the far side of the cut, and then not look at the point where the saw contacts the wood. Instead, I look at where I want the cut to end, and trust that the pulling action of the saw will keep the blade straight.

Nascar drivers will tell you that they rarely look at the car in front of them. Instead, they focus on a point further down the track.

[Wilbur Pan]

having never used a pull saw and not wanting to, it looks to me like the round handle would be difficult to keep orientated and having no stiff back would tend to let the very flexible blade wander a bit.

just my 1¢ worth

I would suggest that you try one first, then. I find that using a ryoba gives me as straight a cut as any unbacked western saw, and that a dozuki, which does have a stiff back, can give a cut as straight as any western saw that has a back.

[Don C Peterson]

I would suggest that you try one first, then. I find that using a ryoba gives me as straight a cut as any unbacked western saw, and that a dozuki, which does have a stiff back, can give a cut as straight as any western saw that has a back.

Thanks for the suggestions, I have been trying to follow them, but obviously I'm missing something...

I'm not trying to say that western style saws are "better" than Japanese pull saws. All I can say for sure is that I tried just about everything to get a small dozuki (backed), two different ryoba (double sided), a Silky Tsubasa (single sided no back), and a kataha (single sided no back, flush cut) saw to work for me with decidedly mixed results.

I even bought an Angle Mag from Japanwoodworker and still couldn't deliver straight cuts more than 1" deep. Invariably, the saws would start veering off to one side or the other on the side farthest away from me.

Almost immediately upon unboxing the LN dovetail saw I was cutting more accurately than I had ever managed before. Without exception, the Japanese saws "felt" fine in my hand, and they all delivered a finer cut than I get with the LN, but what good is a fine cut if you can't also be accurate?

Whatever I was, or wasn't, doing I just couldn't get the pull saws to work consistently for ME. Your mileage may differ...and obviously does.

[glenn bradley]

I wouldn't stress over it. It sounds like you've done enough with the pulls that you are qualified to know what feels better to you. I do find backsaws (with the reinforcing spine on top of the blade), pull or push, to improve my accuracy. Or do I mean "better compensate for my noobie skill level? Either way it sounds like you've found what works for you and nice job on the tails.

[Alex Yeilding]

The only minor problem I had was starting.

Several posters have suggested starting with very light pressure. Rob Cosman, in his video on mastering the dovetail saw, suggests an exercise for learning to do this. On a piece of scrap, use the fingers that you use to guide the saw to move it back and forth along the edge of the board while you are making your sawing motion, with the objective of cutting a very shallow dado about 1/4" wide. You have to support about 3/4 of the weight of the saw to keep it from "digging in", so you can keep moving the cutting line back and forth. That's the way you want to support the saw for starting a cut.

He even suggests a variation of this to start a cut in real work: Start the "skimming cut" motion in the waste, and slowly move it to the desired cut line, at which point you stop moving the cut line but continue the same light sawing motion until the kerf is established and you can let the full weight of the saw rest on the wood.

One other point he made that was a big help for me is to hold the saw as if you are holding a small child's hand (I've also seen reference to holding a bird), firm enough to control, but not to squeeze and hurt.

Nice looking cabinet and dovetails!

[Chuck Nickerson]

If you look at the handle of the LN saw, there's a sharp break in the edge where your palm applies force. The lower part of the edge is more vertical than the upper part of the edge. When starting a cut, push with the part of your palm on the lower edge. This puts more of the force into going forward, less into pushing down.

[Don C Peterson]

Tonight I got the sewing cabinet finished in time for my wife's birthday. It's not much of a surprise, but hopefully she'll be happy and put it to good use.

Thanks to all who offered suggestions on how to get the most out of my new saw (and my old ones).

I can't really tell you how relieved I was when I brought the LN home and it worked for me. I had just about given up the idea of ever being able to do dovetails without a router and a jig. The LN was my last ditch effort to conquer this important (in my mind) aspect of woodworking.

Now that I have a tool that actually works for me, I was able to create passable dovetails, and with practice, I'm now confident that I can eventually make some really nice stuff.

Again, thanks for the kind words of advice and encouragement!