How do you tell the difference between southern yellow pine and douglas fir?

[adam prochaska]

Hi everyone! I am restoring my 1915 home in Lincoln, Nebraska. The woodwork on the first floor is oak but the woodwork on the second floor is either southern yellow pine or douglas fir. I've consulted numerous people in Lincoln and about 1/2 think its pine and 1/2 think its fir. I have tried to look at photos on the internet but they are not helpful. Are there any specific characteristics that i should be looking for? Also, is it possible that the floor could be fir and the trim could be pine? Some people have suggested that as well. I am at work this afternoon but will try to attach some photos later today.

thanks for your help!!!

adam

[glenn bradley]

Is there a University with a Botany Dept. or a Botanical Garden around? I would probably trust their worst guess.

[Josiah Bartlett]

I would just sand a little corner of it and take a good whiff. Its pretty easy to distinguish pine from fir by the smell.

[scott spencer]

That's a tough one visually...I think Josiah's got the right idea by smelling it.

fir:
70475 70478
pine:
70477 70476

[adam prochaska]

I've attached photos of the trim and floor. The trim has been stripped, sanded, and three coats of a wiping varnish applied. I sanded a spot on the floor and added a coat of wiping varnish to bring out the grain. You will see on the outside of the floor photo, the original floor was stained dark. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated. THANKS!!!

[adam prochaska]

What am i looking for in regards to smell? and will this test work with 90 year old wood?

[Bob Herpolsheimer]

Hey Adam,

UNL has a Foresty Dept withing their Extension Division over on east campus. I bet they could help and if not direct you to someplace that could.

[Bob Herpolsheimer]

Hey Adam,

UNL has a Foresty Dept withing their Extension Division over on east campus. I bet they could help and if not direct you to someplace that could.

[Jim Thiel]

When you say restoring, do you mean a historical representation, or were some trim details damaged and you want them to look right? If it's the former, call you local historical society for some help. if the latter, just reach for what ever pleases your eye. My guess is it was meant to be painted in the first place.

Jim

[Roger Newby]

Your window trim is SYP and the flooring sure looks like fir, both are the same as I have in my house down the road in Syracuse, NE. If you saw the flooring and it smells like turpentine, you have fir. My house was built in 1900 and I just cut a hole in the floor for a bath remodel and it smelled like new wood.

Roger

[Phil Thien]

Your window trim is SYP and the flooring sure looks like fir, both are the same as I have in my house down the road in Syracuse, NE. If you saw the flooring and it smells like turpentine, you have fir. My house was built in 1900 and I just cut a hole in the floor for a bath remodel and it smelled like new wood.

Roger

I concur. Floor is straight-grained fir, trim is SYP.

[Ralph Barhorst]

I agree with Roger. Floor is Doug Fir and window trim is SYP. I just planed down some Doug Fir that was used as flooring in my brother's 100 year old house and it still smelled like turpentine.

[Lee Hingle]

Not sure if I agree with 2 of the last 3 posters.

The turpentine smell comes from heart pine. Most pine trees have to get huge to convert any large amount of the wood to heart - thus the reason heart pine is usually only available as salvaged wood from old structures. There just aren't many trees big enough anymore to saw heart pine from.

I have never smelled any fir that had a turpentine smell ever, even in old houses.

The trim is definitely SYP, and the floor does look like fir - but in my opinion, if it (the floor) smells like turpentine, then it is heart pine.

Lee

photo attached for interest

[Jules Dominguez]

I agree the trim looks like SYP and flooring like Douglas Fir. I haven't used a lot of DF, but what I have used looks totally different from SYP. I've also never gotten a turpentine smell from DF.

[Dave MacArthur]

I'm not sure at all whether pine or fir has a stronger turpentine odor, and don't mean to disagree with anyone above--this was just a very interesting topic to me as my father used to be in the resin/turpentine business (Hercules), and I visited a plant once where they made turpentine with him. He tells me most turpentine in their business was made from old pine stumps dug up in the south, Carolinas and Florida. I recall seeing giant stumps being unloaded from trucks and fed into chippers. However, dictionary.com actually says turpentine can come from both pine AND fir:

A semifluid or fluid oleoresin, primarily the exudation of the terebinth, or turpentine, tree (Pistacia Terebinthus (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Pistacia Terebinthus&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6)), a native of the Mediterranean region. It is also obtained from many coniferous trees, especially species of pine, larch, and fir.
Note: There are many varieties of turpentine. Chian turpentine is produced in small quantities by the turpentine tree (Pistacia Terebinthus (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Pistacia Terebinthus&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6)). Venice, Swiss, or larch turpentine, is obtained from Larix Europ[ae]a (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Larix Europ[ae]a&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6). It is a clear, colorless balsam, having a tendency to solidify. Canada turpentine, or Canada balsam, is the purest of all the pine turpentines (see under Balsam (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Balsam&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6)). The Carpathian and Hungarian varieties are derived from Pinus Cembra (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Pinus Cembra&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6) and Pinus Mugho (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Pinus Mugho&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6). Carolina turpentine, the most abundant kind, comes from the long-leaved pine (Pinus palustris (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Pinus palustris&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6)). Strasburg turpentine is from the silver fir (Abies pectinata (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Abies pectinata&PHPSESSID=0bbf2991aac935a23bb5118c0caba0a6)).

[Josiah Bartlett]

Part of the problem with identification is that the floor is more or less quartersawn and the window trim is plain-sawn. Most of the old growth douglas fir flooring I've seen has tighter grain than that, but I'm used to seeing old Pacific NW houses with top grade timber. I'm used to sniffing more western species of pine than SYP, but to me fir smells more "brown", or earthy than pine. You could get a known sample of each to compare in a sniff test.

[Brian Klare]

Both are pine. Trim is flatsawn and the flooring is quarter sawn heart pine-no doubt. Identical to mine up in Omaha

[Jerry Dickens]

Both are pine. Trim is flatsawn and the flooring is quarter sawn heart pine-no doubt. Identical to mine up in Omaha

I think Brian has it correct. The rings are too big for fir to me anyway in the floor pic. For sure YP for the trim. And I would say QS YP for the floor, take up a piece of baseboard and cut you a splinter off with a utility knife where it will not be seen. You can tell for sue by the smell. If betting oh which is illegal in Georgia I would put my money on the YP:)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

That's a tough one visually...I think Josiah's got the right idea by smelling it.

fir:
70475 70478
pine:
70477 70476

And there in lies the great secret~!!

Fir slants off to the left Pine off to the right.

[John Headley]

Another opinion, the trim definitly looks like SYP. The floor is a little harder because of the straight grain, but looks like heart pine to me.

[John Thompson]

Being in Georgia and having recovered many linear feet of "heart pine" from tear-downs where it was common in older houses for wains-coating.. and have also recovered and used much older doug fir from beams in civil war ware-houses... I agree with Lee Hingle's theory.

The wilder grain in the trim appears to be syp and the tight grain in the floor appears to be doug fir to me at first glance.. but as Lee mentioned the turpentine smell is a good indication that you have very tight grained syp "heart-wood" floor.

Been around pulp mills here in Georgia where syp grows in every yard and the turpentine smell is a give-a-way as it is a common by-product of that species. I am not familar with "douglas fir being a source of resin" that produces turpentine even though Canadian balsam or Canadian turpentine comes from the Canadian balsam fir.

Could be fir.. but I would put my money on "heart-pine"...

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

I think Brian has it correct. The rings are too big for fir to me anyway in the floor pic. For sure YP for the trim. And I would say QS YP for the floor, take up a piece of baseboard and cut you a splinter off with a utility knife where it will not be seen. You can tell for sue by the smell. If betting oh which is illegal in Georgia I would put my money on the YP:)

Morning Jerry...

"If betting on which is illegal in Georgia"... JD

If you check with the "boys" down at the Dawsonville Pool Room, I "bet" that they would mention that running "moon-shine" in Georgia is illegal also! But.. a little thing like that didn't stop anybody in Dawson County from supporting a family once upon a time. Of course as things became more law-abiding and respectable around these parts... they had to get rid of those "moon-tanks" and resort to go "racin" with NASCAR for an alternative pay-check. ;)

Sorry.. couldn't resist. Have a good day up the road in D'ville... :>)

Regards from L'ville...

Sarge..

[Scott Hayes]

We grow mostly Douglas fir on our tree farm near Forest Grove, Oregon. Our second growth timber generally produces 3-4 rings per inch; the flooring in this discussion thread looks like old growth Df to me. At the turn of the century if an old growth log had any knots and less than 10 rings per inch it was culled. I have several old floor boards probably cut in the 1930s from old growth Df that have about 40 rings per inch. It still smells like Df, especially when wet. Also on the tree farm when falling 60+ year old timber, an occassional stump will have a pitch pocket. I have a jar with about 3 cups of pitch - if you want a test patch mailed on an envelope, let me know.

[Ron Williams]

I agree that the trim is Southern Yellow Pine and The floor is Southern Heart Pine

[Ed Falis]

I'll also vote SYP for the trim and Douglas fir for the floor. Looks just like what I have in my 1908 house (he says, looking down at the floor under the office chair).

[Greg Funk]

Heres some older growth fir with up to 75 rings per inch.

Greg

[Jim Thiel]

Fir slants off to the left Pine off to the right.

That is just the funniest thing I've read today.

I wish I knew how to put one of those laughing smilies in a post.

Jim

[Steve Schoene]

The authoritative place to send your samples is:

Center for Wood Anatomy Research
USDA Forest Service, Forest Products Laboratory
One Gifford Pinchot Dr.
Madison, WI 53726-2398

The ideal sample size is 1" x 3" x 6", though smaller samples can be used if necessary (as in antiques). This is a free service for US citizens (for up to 5 samples per year.) Time is about 2-4 weeks.

http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/WoodID/idfact.html

[Matt P]

Your headline sounds like the intro to a joke.. :)

[adam prochaska]

Thank you to everyone who responded. I can't believe the debate on this topic. The votes are still split. My plan is to cut out a piece of floor and smell it. I may also send pieces to the Center for Wood Anatomy Research. This forum has been extremely helpful. Your help has convinced me to become a contributing member.

[Mike Null]

If the vote is split then I'll settle it for you. The floor is SYP.

[Ed Blough]

If it is SYP it will be hard as a rock. Try driving a nail into it. If it the nail goes in easily without bending it is Douglas pine.
I used SYP for anything clamp faces, bench tops or anything I want to last, far stronger than hard maple.

[Luciano Burtini]

If it is SYP it will be hard as a rock. Try driving a nail into it. If it the nail goes in easily without bending it is Douglas pine.
I used SYP for anything clamp faces, bench tops or anything I want to last, far stronger than hard maple.

Yikes

the old Douglas Fir we grow (grew?) up here (Western Canada) is so hard you cannot drive a nail into it (or remove a nail from it). It is also pretty unique looking (but then I have Ponderosa pine and Lodgepole pine to compare it to). Douglas Fir also tends to splinter into long splinters when old. QS will not do so as much as FS, but it will still splinter. Local pine never gets this hard, but I am not familiar with SYP.

Oh, and just to complicate matters, Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii) is not a true fir at all but is actually a member of the pine family (f.pinacae).

My guess? Looks like DF flooring, but a picture can be misleading. I would lean towards whatever species is common in the area. If it was in BC, I would bet money on the floor being Douglas Fir as many houses were.

[Dixon Peer]

I believe post #15 is correct. I worked with Doug Fir most of my young life as a framer and never thought it smelled like turpentine. If you get that smell, the wood is more likely Southern Yellow Pine. My guess is that all the lumber is Doug Fir, and the reason is that you're in Oregon, where it comes from (generally speaking, it's from the northwest). Southern Yellow Pine comes from, surprise surprise, the southeastern U.S. Not that some SYP hasn't been shipped to the northwest, just not as likely in your area.