MM16 vs Agazzani B18

[John Hedges]

I am starting to look at bandsaws as the final upgrade to my shop, after having upgraded the rest of the large machines. I am mainly looking for a resaw machine which can also do gentle curves. I have found that I never really use a blade smaller than 1/2 on my current machine. In looking around I noticed that the B18 is priced the same as the MM16 (as listed on the mini-max site and eagle tools). I know comparing a 16" machine to an 18 might be a bit of an apples to oranges comparisons but I am curious as to which would be selected by the experts here. While the B18 is an 18" machine it has less resaw height than the MM16 (16" vs 12"), and the MM16 has more power (2.5 vs 4.8). This would seem to give the edge to the MM16, however I also am wondering if the larger wheels on the B18 would handle a carbide blade better. I am sure either machine would work great, just curious what everyone thinks as I don't think I've seen this comparison made here before. Also does anyone know where I can find more info on the B18? The only site I can find is Eagle Tools and the info there is a bit scarce on specifics (table size etc.)

[Montgomery Scott]

When I was in the market for a BS I considered the Agazzani. I chose the MM for the reasons you listed above. Obviously the 18" wheels will results in less bending stress on a blade so you would be better off in that respect, but if you are considering switching to a carbide blade then you probably should consider not compromising on either the MM16 or the B-18, but get the MM20 and buy it in Decemeber when MiniMax has their end of year sale and get it for $300 less than the normal price.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John....I'm struggling with the same decision right now.

[Jim Becker]

In years past, the larger wheel would have certainly been more of a factor in the carbide blade issue than it is now. Lennox, for example, reformulated the 1" carbide blade so that it is less likely to suffer from fatigue when run on a 16" machine. And the 1/2" carbide can be the bee's-knees if you are still concerned...and it's a thinner kerf, too.

Choose the saw that best fits the cutting that you intend to be doing. Both of the tools you are looking at are quality machines. The MM certainly has the edge on power and height...the former is great for powering through tough jobs and the latter isn't just about cutting height...it's about visibility, too. The Aggazani has a great reputation for quality so choosing it still gets you a great machine. Eagle Tools seems to be the right place to buy Aggazani, too..

[John Hedges]

Montgomery (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=7758) while I would love a really large bandsaw like an MM20 (at least it's big to me). The budget and room in the shop preclude going that route. An 18 would be pushing it as it is.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I have owned both a B-24 and a MM-24, I still have the MM24. Both are very good saws and I also have gotten good service from Jesse at Eagle Tools and MM in Austin. Do note the Agazzani's are true Italian bandsaws in that they still carry over specs from the saws sold over in Europe. The MM line of saws I do beleive have been adjusted a bit to fit the American market (made by Centauro for MM) One thing to take notice is the resaw height. On the MM16 I believe the resaw is 16" but on the B-18 the resaw is not 18 but more like 10? When I had my B-24 the resaw was about 16+" with my MM24 it is now 24"! So is resaw height important to you? or is the distance from the blade to the beam more important? The MM series of saws is more heavily built, I did measure the difference, but I am not sure if it makes that big of a difference. I do feel like the MM24 cuts better (cleaner) but then again it is also a 3ph 7hp motor

[Montgomery Scott]

Jim, do you know if Lenox makes any claim as to the bandsaw wheel size their carbide tipped blades will reasonably work with? Which carbide blade do you like to use for wide resaws? I notice that Lenox has several different models available; the only one I've heard mentioned is the tri-master.

[Mike Spanbauer]

The tri-master is Lenox's only carbide blade but it comes in many widths.

I can't recall their stated wheel size support, but I've had my MM16 w/ a 1" Tri on it for 18 months now and it's still going strong.

mike

[Jim Becker]

Jim, do you know if Lenox makes any claim as to the bandsaw wheel size their carbide tipped blades will reasonably work with? Which carbide blade do you like to use for wide resaws? I notice that Lenox has several different models available; the only one I've heard mentioned is the tri-master.

I do not know what their actual claims are, but there was a lot of chatter a year or two ago when they were going through the formulation change...they did it as stocks were depleted, so at that time, it was hard to know if you got the old or new formulation of the TriMaster. (Which is the carbide tipped blade)

[Dan Lautner]

I would also look at the Agazzani 20" and 24". I think you can get the 20" for the same price as the MM 16. I will be buying th 24" Agazzani when my shop is done. I was at Eagle tools a few weeks back and saw the new guides that come with the Agazzani and they look very nice. Eagle tools checks and tunes every saw before they ship. I was also looking at the MM line but was turned off by the electrical issues and the price of the 20 and 24" machines compared to the Agazzini.

Dan

[Terry Stellman]

The tri-master is Lenox's only carbide blade but it comes in many widths.


mike


The Trimaster isn't the only carbide blade they have. They also have a new Woodmaster CT that looks interesting.

http://www.lenoxsaw.com/woodct.htm
http://www.toolcenter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TC&Category_Code=WOODMASTER_CT

Hope these links work. If not, just Google Woodmaster CT.

Terry

[Mark Duginske]

This is a good discussion and I will not be taking sides because I have had business and professional dealings with all of the names involved.

I did the original US manuals for Laguna and Agazzani and a video for MM.

Let me start by saying that you will probably be happy with any of the saws as all of the Italian saws are good and of high quality. I would not get too hung up on the specs... weight, horsepower, color etc.

I had a 24" MM in my previous shop and replaced it with a 20" saw of a different brand. I did have some electrical issues with the MM. I now have a 21" Felder and a 20" Agazzani that only has the Trimaster blade.
I use all the other blades on the Felder.

I think that the 20" size is ideal. I had read or heard that Lennox doesn't
like the the Trimaster on saws smaller than 20". For that reason alone I would vote for an 18" over a 16".

But like I said, you would be happy with either choice.

[John Hedges]

Mark and everyone, I really appreciate your chiming in on this one. The 20" Agazzani would definitely be at the top end of my price range but with that said it would be a purchase I would never question. Someone suggested I look at felder as there is a dealer in town but the prices on the website looked quite exhorbident compared to the Agazzani and MM lineups, for the specs. Guess I'll have some good food for thought on this before I buy.

Does anyone know where you can get more information on the Agazzani as far as specs (table size, overall height etc.). The only place I can find is on the eagle tools web site and they are incomplete.

[Dan Lautner]

Here is some info Jesse sent to me about the Agazzani 20" a few months back:


Thank you,
Jesse Barragan
Eagle Tools / 323-999-2909

TECHNICAL CHECK UP: Saw is checked by technician before shipping. This is a one hour technical checklist !

SECURE CRATING: Agazzani bandsaws are shipped horizontal (on their spine) in a WOOD crate for secure shipping. This prevents most freight damage.
NOTE: Most other brand bandsaws ship upright with plastic and cardboard wrapping offering little protection against freight damage. Furthermore, the upright position makes other bandsaws vulnerable to freight damage from falling over.

PHOTO OF CUT TIRE: Close-up photo (attached to this email) of an Agazzani bandsaw tire that has been deliberately cut shows that there is no separation in a vulcanized tire even when the rubber tire is cut down to the cast iron wheel! NON-vulcanized tires are under tension and will separate off the wheel when cut through. Agazzani’s vulcanized tires have a TWENTY YEAR average lifetime! After many years of use, the Agazzani wheel may be re-vulcanized or a standard rubber tire may be used on the same wheel.

CHANGES OVER LAST SEVERAL MONTHS:
-- Resaw capacity on B-18, B-20, and B-24 increased to approx. 13”, 14”, and 17” respectively.
-- Rip/Resaw fences are now slightly longer on each model
-- New Agazzani Euroguides. The new Euroguides have tighter tolerances and do not require the round
locking nut on side guides.
-- Upper arm is now epoxy coated yellow.
-- Machine base has four set screws for leveling saw to uneven floor.
-- Safety micro-switches on both doors (micro-switch in footbrake is standard)

__________________________________________________ ________________________
SOME WOODWORKERS AND INSTITUTIONS USING AGAZZANI:

Mark Duginske, author “The Bandsaw Handbook” ( Uses B-20 since 1999 ) New Bandsaw Book coming Jan. 07.
Rhode Island School of Design (Providence, RI) Use several B-24’s
Andy Rae , author “Furniture Construction” (B-20)
Rochester Institute of Tech. (American Crafts School) B-24
Sam Maloof, considered the Father of Modern Furnituremaking, ........Uses B-32 ,B-24 and B-18.
Fine Woodworking Magazine: B-20 in their own shop since 1999.
Anderson Ranch School (near Aspen)...........B-24 and B-18
Tropical Exotic Hardwoods (Mitch Talcove) California B-32
Getty Museum, Peter Shapiro , The Getty in-house shop. They have state of the art equipment (B-20)

__________________________________________________ ______________________________
MORE ABOUT AGAZZANI BANDSAWS...................

• Sam Maloof “I own four bandsaws and I like the 24” Agazzani best of all.”
I can resaw beautifully with either a 1/4” or a 1” blade.” (Maloof uses the B-24 and B-32.)

• “Editor’s Choice” selected by Editor (at that time) Tim Schreiner of Fine Woodworking Magazine for the Taunton Press shop in Connecticut. Tim Schreiner chose the Agazzani B-20 amongst an international selection of bandsaws at the Anaheim Industrial Woodworking Show, 1999.

• “Author’s Choice” selected by Mark Duginske for his own shop in Wisconsin (author of The Bandsaw Handbook (1989) and Bandsaw Video). Mr. Duginske’s NEW BANDSAW BOOK will be published in January 2007.

• VULCANIZED TIRES:. Vulcanized tires have an average lifetime of 20 years ! This is a much longer lasting bond than conventional tires. Agazzani tires are finished to a constant radius and crown. This exceeds tolerances of glued-on tires which almost all other bandsaws use. Unlike most tires,vulcanized tires will not peel off the wheel when they are accidentally cut or scratched. In fact, the Agazzani vulcanized tire can be cut down to the cast iron without peeling off ! Vulcanized tires do not deteriorate from age. At the end of their long lifetime, you can choose to mount a standard tire on the Agazzani wheel, or you can revulcanize.

• New Euro Blade Guides: Agazzani’s new blade guides have fingertip micro adjustments.

• Electronically Balanced: Solid cast iron wheels are electronically balanced for smoother performance.

• Micro-switch on foot brake. One of three shut off points. The other two are a mushroom knob and magnetic on-off. (Emergency shut-off and blade stop with single foot action)

• Micro-switches on upper and lower doors for B-20 and larger models. Bandsaw will not run with open doors.

• Adjustable upper arm. Upper arm support is not welded in place. Adjusting screws align upper arm to insure proper relationship between blade, guides, and worktable.

• Epoxy powder coated finish, for durable protection, not spray-on paint.

• Quick release for table tilting on models B-20 and larger. It is not necessary to use a wrench to loosen trunnion bolts for table tilting. Just use the quick release cam lock lever behind the table.

• Rip Fence is adjustable: for high or low profile fence position. Fence screws adjust for blade drift.

• Cast work tables are planed. Wood glides with less drag.

• RIGID laser cut bandsaw bodies, minimal body flex when tensioning larger blades.

• True horsepower rating: Motors are industrial grade and rated for continuous duty. Motors are rated to resaw at full capacity through hardwood with appropriate resaw blade.

• Manufactured By Agazzani in Italy since 1938.

[Scot Ferraro]

John,

You can pick up a Felder at a discount if you combine it with an open house our other promo-event. There might be a sales event in November so you might want to check them out and see what Felder says. All of the choices you reference will be great saws and I am sure you would be happy with any of these choices.

Let us know how it works out.

Scot

[Adam Grills]

Just wondering why you have ruled out a Laguna saw?

[John Hedges]

Scot,

Thanks for the heads up on the Felder specials, I plan to go check them out at the showroom here in town. I am really stunned as I have never heard a word about Felder saws until this thread.

Adam,

It's not so much that I have ruled out Laguna, but put it in the same class as the MM so to simplify the comparison I used the MM which is more the way I was leaning if I were to go the 16" route. Think I am going to go the 20" route however and look at the Felder, but if I was to buy today I think it would be the Agazzani.

[Mike Spanbauer]

Thanks Terry, I wasn't aware that they had released a new blade line yet.

I'll have to investigate the pricing and specs.

Thanks!

mike