Quest for a Sliding Tablesaw

[Bill Reed]

I started out a few months ago searching for a modern sliding tablesaw to replace my very old Delta Unisaw. I wanted a good quality European slider that was small enough to fit in my garage and capable of dadoeing. I wanted to be able to crosscut a sheet of plywood but did not feel that I needed a long enough slider to rip a full 8'. I can do that the old fashioned way using the rip fence.

First, I started talking to Laguna. Their TSS model seemed just right to me, but the salesman was very slow to find me a machine to look at in person. So then I contacted Minimax and Felder. I had extensive discussions with the Minimax salesman about the SC3, which also seemed perfect for my needs. After much discussion, I discovered that this machine will not accept a dado blade. Next, I went to Felder's showroom in Delaware to see their machines. I liked them very much, but then discovered that they have a 30mm arbor and will only accept a Felder dado blade. That means all my old tooling would need replacing, and 30mm tooling is hard to find. I went back to Minimax and started looking at the SC4, which takes a dado and is perhaps a little larger than I wanted but otherwise OK. During the process of negotiating with the Minimax salesman, I noticed that the arbor size on this saw was changed from 5/8" to 1" on their website. I pointed this out to the salesman, who confirmed that this saw now comes with the larger arbor, which again my blades won't fit. I know I could easily replace the saw blades, but the adjustable dado blades (like the Freud Dial-a-Width) that I prefer don't come with a 1" arbor. Next I went to the Grizzly website and found the Grizzly G0460 saw which looked just right for me and cheaper than the others too. So I got kind of excited and called Grizzly and found out that this saw had been discontinued. Now I'm back to Laguna, but with some fear and trepidation. I have heard that the cross-cut fence won't stay square because it doesn't have an outrigger. In the process of negotiating with Laguna, my salesman quit so now I'm dealing with a new guy. I also have heard the company may be in trouble, but maybe this is just a tactic to keep me from buying their saw.

I once had a friend who told me that having a lot of taxes to pay was a good kind of problem to have. I guess having several thousand dollars to spend on a tablesaw is also a good kind of problem. But it sure is driving me crazy. I'd be glad for any suggestions about what to do.

Bill

[David DeCristoforo]

What you are experiencing is very typical. To begin with, most sliders are European which means metric sizes for everything including blade bore. However, it's not that big a deal to have your current blades re-bored. Some of these saws also have shear pin holes which make modding existing blades more difficult. 30mm bore blades are actually easier to find than 1". As to dado heads, very few sliders will accept them...just the nature of the beast. These saws are intended more for panel cutting than for general woodworking so they are designed with that in mind.

[Jim Becker]

My recently purchased (Feb 2007) Mini Max S315SW has a 5/8" arbor and takes all my existing tooling. I'm quite surprised at the change you discovered on the SC4, which is my saw's little brother/sister, as it were...quite strange.

[John Lanciani]

Hi Bill,

Take a look at the Rojek USA website. They have exactly what you're looking for in their PK 250A and you won't have to put up with salesmen with bad attitudes either.

No affiliation, just a happy customer.

John Lanciani

[Todd Solomon]

Hi Bill,

As David mentioned, you can have your blades re-bored. Send any blade to Forrest, and they'll re-bore to whatever you specify- either 1" for the Mini Max, or the 30mm Felder bore with the two pin slots for electric braking. Forrest has the Felder pattern, and it's not expensive.

Mini Max used to allow you to order a 5/8" arbor, are you sure that they won't now? You may want to double-check with Mini Max, to see if the sales guy was misinformed.

I believe there is a Felder owner that runs a Forrest dado set- he had it re-bored. I run the pricey Felder dado set on my K700S. It cuts exceptionally well, but the cost is painful.

I looked at the Grizzly sliders at AWFS- I was not impressed. I am, however, impressed with Shiraz, the president of Grizzly. I think that eventually he will offer a slider that will compete with the euro sliders on quality and performance, but they aren't there yet.

I wouldn't let the issue of the dado set be the deciding factor on which slider you get. I would recommend you look at them hard and decide which one is right for you. I personally have owned and recommend both Mini Max and Felder sliders.

Todd

[Gary Curtis]

This May, Felder (Sacramento) offered a class taught by Mark Duginske. Over two days, he demonstrated how to make an entry door, and in the process showed how to set up and use a Saw/Shaper combo with a slider, and Jointer/Planer combo.

My motivation for going was that I had drooled over Euro Format saws for 3 years. I eventually bought a General slider. After taking the class, I was satisfied on two scores, though I'll eventually move up to a genuine Euro Format Saw. I learned 1) my sliding tablesaw is big enough for most things I'll do. Though it won't rip a 4x8 sheet of ply, I've got a Festool 55 saw with guide rails to do that job. And a bigger shop would be demanded of a Mini-Max, Knapp, Felder with an 8 or 10-foot slider.

2) I can use a router for Dados and do a great job. My saw arbor will accept a Dado stack, but I can deal with the task on a router table. The Festool router with guide rail is an excellent approach.

For the blades themselves, if you haven't got a machine shop locally to punch out the arbor hole (cost - about $12), Everlast blade company in Florida will supply you. Most folks on forums rate the Freud and Forrest as best, though.

Gary Curtis

[David DeCristoforo]

PS: I always suggest that anyone who buys a slider keep their "conventional" TS around for at least a little while. For one thing I feel that, while these have some overlapping capibility, they are not mutually exclusive of each other. I have had both in my shop for many years and I use both every day. My dado blade runs on my Unisaw and most of my solid stock ripping is also done on the Unisaw. Also, things like light tennoning, rabbeting, etc. are much more easily done on a conventional saw. But the slider opens up a whole new world of potential that goes far beyond whacking up sheets of plywood.

[tim rowledge]

What you are experiencing is very typical. To begin with, most sliders are European which means metric sizes for everything including blade bore.

Really? My MM CU300 uses 'normal' 5/8 bore blades and takes a dado.

[Bill Reed]

My recently purchased (Feb 2007) Mini Max S315SW has a 5/8" arbor and takes all my existing tooling. I'm quite surprised at the change you discovered on the SC4, which is my saw's little brother/sister, as it were...quite strange.

Check out the Minimax website. You'll see in the specifications that all their saws now come with a 1" arbor. The salesman told me that the "manufacturer" believes that 5/8' is too small. I guess they have changed the arbor size in all their saws. Maybe not a bad thing unless you have a lot of 5/8" blades and dadoes.

[Jim Becker]

Tim, I believe that Mini Max has been somewhat unique in their accommodation of the US market in that respect...sounds like that's changing, however...


Check out the Minimax website. You'll see in the specifications that all their saws now come with a 1" arbor. The salesman told me that the "manufacturer" believes that 5/8' is too small. I guess they have changed the arbor size in all their saws. Maybe not a bad thing unless you have a lot of 5/8" blades and dadoes.

Well....when "Mama Bear" says jump...

I was pleased that I could continue to use my blades "as is" with my S315WS, but wouldn't have hesitated to get the re-bored if I couldn't. Given the investment in the saw, re-boring wouldn't have been a significant cost in relative terms.

Looks like the SC3W still has the 5/8" arbor, but the SC4WS and S315WS are now back to 1" arbors.

[John Thompson]

Hi Bill,

Take a look at the Rojek USA website. They have exactly what you're looking for in their PK 250A and you won't have to put up with salesmen with bad attitudes either.

No affiliation, just a happy customer.

John Lanciani

Yep............ :)

Regards...

Sarge..

[Lee Hingle]

Bill,
I just bought Laguna's pro sliding table for my powermatic 66. It is the exact same slider as they put on the TSS. I don't have it on the saw yet, but hope to in the next week or so. If you would like, I can report back to you on how accurate the crosscut fence stays aligned square to the blade and anything else you would like to know.

I didn't have the cash for a new saw, and bought a very lightly used 66 5hp single phase saw last year for $1400 - but needed the capability for cutting sheets at least in half accurately. Space is also an issue in my shop, so a full slider is out of the question for me as well.
Good luck with your decision,
Lee

[Charlie Plesums]

I have the MiniMax CU410 Elite combo with the 8 1/2 foot slider, and it fits in my garage. The saw has a 5/8 inch arbor, and does support a dado but I basically never use the dado on the saw... the irregularity (warp) in the plywood doesn't let me cut a depth as precise as all the other work I do on the saw. Therefore I still use a router for the dados, since it can follow the surface of the plywood.

Having a precision slider is an amazing addition, both for hardwood and for sheet goods (even the best cabinet saws don't have a cross-cut / miter fence 6 feet long!).

Two visitors who owned Robland machines swapped for MiniMax after they saw my machine. One Rojek user I know sold the machine outright and is getting a MiniMax. I consider Felder a worthy competitor to MiniMax; Knapp was, too, but they are reportedly on hard times.

[Ken Massingale]

Maybe a nice green one?

http://scwoodworker.net/images/10-110.jpg

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Felder runs a shop in Delaware where you can use and poke at their equipment.

The MM guy will find you a local owner who will let you take a test drive and chat with you. It's a really good idea to go see and run the machines you are looking at getting. They are all the same in various ways and they are all different in various ways.

I got the Hammer with the long table. It is absolutely the SHIZZ~!! And I have dado capacity and scoring. I rarely use scoring. You absolutely must get the adjustable extension support table with any slider. That way when you set something big on the table you aren't left with the problem of trying to hold the thing up and keep it balanced.

One thing you might want to bear in mind. It's really easy to get caught up in the "pursuit of mass." Or stated another way: Over-buying is about as perilous as under-buying. When you over-buy you pour money into things that may not yield a result worth the investment. Take for example an extreme case of the hobby craftsman who buys a 60-Thousand dollar Strebig panel saw. All the equipment and machinery he could have got, he now can't but, he can cut panels like it was going out of style. Unless he's abandoning the hobby for a career of jobbing for several cabinet companies he will have made a mistake.

The same applies to slider saws. There is a wide range from which to select. A great many people get the models that are more suited for a heavy production shop. If you can afford that then, great. But there are other considerations. The heavy industrial table does not move itself. Your arm has to push it back and forth. While I will say that longer is better I'll also say that massive is not necessarily better because it all depends on your needs. I do a lot of short stroke work. That means I am pushing the table back and forth over distances less than 12" quite a lot. A heavy industrial table would be a pain in the butt 'cause I'd have to be moving that mass from a dead stop overcoming the still inertia, then stopping it overcoming the dynamic inertia, then moving it back overcoming the still inertia etc., etc..

ERGO: I opted for a lighter high quality table not meant be in a shop with a team of brutes slamming 100 pound sheet stock on it all day every day.

Before you plunk down the money make sure you understand your need set and your anticipated needs into the future. It'll be somewhere between $7,000.00 and $15,000.00 (you could spend lots and lots more too). That is a big spread. In that price range you will definitely not be buying inferior equipment. Table length aside the distinctions are all tied up in how heavy your duty-cycle will be. So I advise that you not get caught up in the pursuit of mass. Instead pursue the best fit for your current and future needs.

[Jim Becker]

Maybe a nice green one?



At issue with the Rikon is that while it sports a nice sliding fixture, it's not like a Euro slider. Same for any add-on sliding setup. True, designed from the bottom up sliders, have the wagon right up to the blade and are also configured to be able to balance the weight of material far to the left of the blade. This is very different from a cabinet saw setup with a sliding fixture attachment. Even the Laguna with the integral slider is more of a hybrid, rather than a true "format" slider.

[Mike Wilkins]

I too hope to move from a Unisaw to a slider. Right now, with the space constraints of my shop (16 X24), a machine with a 5 1/2 to 7 foot slider would be ideal for me. I use both sheet stock and solid timbers in projects.
As for dado useage; a table saw is sometimes good for making dadoes in sheet goods, but the same could be accomplished with a good router and solid guide system.
By the way; I saw a new sliding table saw offered by General in the latest issue of Woodshop News. Comes with scoring, an outrigger table, and is set up in a true format-style. No word yet on cost and availability.
Good luck in your search and watch those fingers.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Really? My MM CU300 uses 'normal' 5/8 bore blades and takes a dado."

Well...yes, really. I did say "most", not "all".....

[David DeCristoforo]

"...it's not like a Euro slider..."

Thank you for making this point Jim. There is a lot of confusion when it comes to "sliders" because there are really two distinct categories. There are what are basically "conventional" table saws with sliding table attachments. These saws will usually have a "standard" 5/8" arbor and the same ability to mount dado sets, moulding heads, etc. as any other TS. On the other end of the spectrum are machines that are more often (and more accurately) referred to as "panel saws". These machines, as you point out usually have the edge of the sliding table very close to the blade which makes mounting accessory blades difficult if not impossible. In between are quite a few variations on both configurations which makes the whole issue even more confusing.

[Bill Reed]

At issue with the Rikon is that while it sports a nice sliding fixture, it's not like a Euro slider. Same for any add-on sliding setup. True, designed from the bottom up sliders, have the wagon right up to the blade and are also configured to be able to balance the weight of material far to the left of the blade. This is very different from a cabinet saw setup with a sliding fixture attachment. Even the Laguna with the integral slider is more of a hybrid, rather than a true "format" slider.

What exactly is meant by a "format" slider? Does this just mean that the sliding table is right up next to the blade? If so, why isn't the Laguna a true format slider?

Bill

[Paul B. Cresti]

European stlye format slider: the sliding carriage is on the immediate left side of the blade. I am not sure if this is the industry coined term but for our purposes that is what we are considering. Do not get caught up on the dado issue. Remember when you have that dado head in you can not use your saw for anything else...that is what I hated on my Unisaw. I have had two different sizes of sliders now and there has not been one single time I have regretted not selling off my Unisaw. Look into the archives here under my postings I created a double router table at the other end on my slider. I use is similiar to a saw/shaper setup but the good thing is I have a separate shaper for real shaper needs and only use the router closest to the slider for dados only. This keeps my saw & shaper free. If you do not get a shaper then in a set up like mine you could easily use the slider with the router for all you cutting and shaping needs. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28088

[Ron Williams]

I am considering a euroslider after using an Exaktor slider on my Unisaw and seeing the benefits of a slider. One concern I have will the Slider be a good saw if it is your only table saw?

[Todd Solomon]

By the way; I saw a new sliding table saw offered by General in the latest issue of Woodshop News. Comes with scoring, an outrigger table, and is set up in a true format-style. No word yet on cost and availability.
Good luck in your search and watch those fingers.

Just be aware that sliders are sophisticated animals. I wouldn't want to buy from anyone that hasn't been in the slider business for a long time. The minute details of the sliding table, outrigger, slider crosscut fence system, scoring motor, Etc., are really crucial to proper operation. As is an expert staff, that can help a slider owner when issues arise (and they often do, due to the complexity of these saws).

Felder, Mini Max and Hammer have been at it a long time, and deliver quality, high-performing sliders. There aren't too many other well-established slider companies in the under $10K bracket, at least here in the states. Laguna's high end used to be Knapp, but they no longer carry Knapp (which had gone bankrupt, a while back). After owning a couple of sliding table saws, I wouldn't want to take a chance on any slider that doesn't have a time-proven track-record behind it.

Todd

[Paul B. Cresti]

I am considering a euroslider after using an Exaktor slider on my Unisaw and seeing the benefits of a slider. One concern I have will the Slider be a good saw if it is your only table saw?

It has been my only saw for about four years now.....I have never looked back.

[Jim Becker]

What exactly is meant by a "format" slider? Does this just mean that the sliding table is right up next to the blade? If so, why isn't the Laguna a true format slider?

This is probably an example of when terms get a little in the way...yes, by the simple definition of the wagon being next to the blade, the Laguna would be in the category--thanks for pointing that out, so I'll rephrase--when you look at how the Laguna is constructed, it's got a lot of attributes of an "American" cabinet saw as well as attributes of a Euro slider. They even offer it with out the sliding feature if you want it that way...at least they did...I haven't checked in awhile.

The Laguna slider is somewhat limited in capacity (but of very good quality) and in my eyes, that's because the support structure isn't there like you would find on the larger/longer sliders. They really can't put a bigger wagon on it. Take a look at one of the Euro sliders from MiniMax, Felder, Grizzly, Kufo, whomever, and the structure that is there to support the sliding wagon and outrigger. Look at the weight distribution, too. These machines were clearly optimized for the sliding wagon. They are less comfortable to use with the traditional rip fence...trust me on that!

That all said, the Laguna would be a great machine for someone who wants the crosscut and smaller panel handling capability of a Euro slider combined with the ripping capablities of an "American style" cabinet saw.


I am considering a euroslider after using an Exaktor slider on my Unisaw and seeing the benefits of a slider. One concern I have will the Slider be a good saw if it is your only table saw?

I was concerned with that when I made the plunge, but in the months that my slider has been in the shop, I've moved farther and farther away from using the techniques I used on my cabinet saw. With the ripping jig I recently built, I'm rarely using the fence anymore outside of when it's convenient for measuring purposes for repeat cuts. (Fence pulled back well before the blade front) And using the sliding wagon has decreased my need to return to the jointer to dress an edge to almost never at this point.