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View Full Version : 10,000 glasses- laser, router or sandblaster?



Darren Null
08-20-2007, 8:00 PM
I only went to the pub for a quick bevy and to give the landlord/lady some engraved tubo glasses (that I made while getting the layout and aiming of the graphic using the -new to me- rotary right). They get a freebie; I get some practice; and they pimp my (by then professional) services to anyone who requires them. Good all round.

So. 10,000 glasses. What's the most efficient way of doing it? I have to say that doing exactly the same thing 10,000 times doesn't fill me with joy. I'm in it for the art. And cash, of course, which might well sway the argument. Also, I suspect that there are more efficient ways of doing that sort of volume than me with a 12W laser.

Any ideas?

EDIT: OOh. Forgot. Does anybody have an incredibly detailed line drawing of a rose please? Or a graphic that can be converted into one?

Nancy Laird
08-20-2007, 8:26 PM
Darren, my initial response is "you've got to be kidding, right?" 10,000 glasses? My second reaction is that you'll burn out that 12W laser long before you reach the 10,000 mark. Router? on glassware? I don't think so. Sandblasting would probably be the way to go, if you're game for cutting 10,000 masks to go on the glasses before you blast them. Judging from our last glassware order, you are probably looking at a year's worth of work!! Good luck!

Nancy (123 days)

Stan Cook
08-20-2007, 8:28 PM
10,000...hmmm...seems like the perfect opportunity to upgrade to a larger laser :D

Mike Null
08-20-2007, 8:29 PM
What about a chemical etch?

Jim Good
08-20-2007, 8:35 PM
Outsource!?!?!?!?!? :D

Steven Smith
08-20-2007, 8:39 PM
50% deposit! Then outsource

Scott Shepherd
08-20-2007, 9:28 PM
Can it be done with the glasses flat or is the words/image wrapped too far around? If it only dips a little, a flat fixture and a large laser might be able to do a lot of them at one time????? If it needs the rotary for sure, then it's probably not going to be economical, in my opinion.

Joe Pelonio
08-20-2007, 9:41 PM
Considering all the options, I would agree with Scott, if you can limit the area to a small enough area and focus in-between, set them up with a jig and do 20-30 at a time, whatever will fit in the laser.

Otherwise I'd do chemical etch, it will save time and a lot of wear on the laser. This job might pay for a plotter to cut stencils and a few bottles of tch is a lot less than the cost of sandblasting if you don't have the equipment.

Mike Hood
08-20-2007, 10:26 PM
I did 250 for a wedding a few months back. It was mind-numbing, but at $2/ea I felt like it was worth it. I got pretty good at switching them out. I could do them in 34 seconds each, but it makes for a long session :)

Lemme see... 34 seconds to engrave... 10 seconds to load and stack:

44 seconds each.... 655 in a 8 hour day (no breaks)

That's better than 2 weeks of fun :)

better you than me... :rolleyes:

Jim Heffner
08-20-2007, 10:47 PM
Darren, have you thought of making a template that could be attached
to the glass and doing the work in a media blasting cabinet ? You could buy one of them from HF and use / experiment with different types of media to see which would give the best results. Jim Heffner

Stephen Beckham
08-21-2007, 8:29 AM
Darren,

I agree with Stephen - outsourcing may be your best bet. But....

It won't be easy, but if you figure that you get 1 per minute - thats 166 hours with no breaks or a little over at 40 hours per week - 4 steady weeks of laser time. Honestly - if you even double that, you're looking at 8 weeks of easy laser time (four hours a day). So you know you can finish in under two months (barring equipment failure, finger damage, loss of last good eye or loss of sainity)

For 10,000 glasses - if you clear $2 each (after cost and laser minutes) that's $20,000 - the cost of my laser. I never saw how much you're charging - $4 each would almost clear you the $2 each profit...

If a laser is going to wear out from using it two weeks straight - big problem in itself. I don't think its unfair "wear and tear" of equipment.

On top of that - if you outsource to one, two or three other laser owners in your area - yea, you loose profit because you'll have to pay them - but work the math and see how much of the $20,000 you can loose to save a week; two weeks etc. Estimate high... It's may be a large jump of faith, but I believe it's possible...

Darren Null
08-21-2007, 8:54 AM
Thanks very much for the advice- you guys are amazing.

The full (and slightly more coherent) story is that this chap did a few thousand glasses (sandblasted) for various festivals several years ago. He gave it up in order to start a new biz, but still gets requests...including this one from a chain of hostelries.

I've got to go back in tomorrow and find out more details, as well as taking a couple of samples with me. When we were discussing the job last night, I gave the webdesigner's answer: "yup, no problem", before then going away and finding out if it's possible.
I can cope with a certain amount of mindless tedium if it's going to get my laser upgraded. 12W is a bit slow judging from the times I'm getting as compared to the times published on here for various things. The "Laser by Mattel, suitable for ages 6 and up" on the box was a bit of a clue. hehehe.

I like the jig idea. The falloff of focus is quite sharp with my lack of power, but if I can keep the logo small it might be workable. The most-used glass here is a 500ml 'tubo' (tube) glass....60mm dia 165mm long; which is almost exactly the wrong sort of glass. A jig would work if it's just writing and I can etch it sideways down the length of the glass in a trendy 'bored designer' style; otherwise the falloff is too steep and it'd have to be rotary.

Chemical etching isn't an option for me at the moment...I haven't got premises and the laser is in my bedroom (my wife is very understanding- also the kids have inherited my mad scientist gene and homebrew industrial processes and small explosions in various out-of-the-way corners of the house is perfectly normal behaviour for us). Nevertheless, I am a bit limited in the ferocity of things I can use in a domestic setting. Same with sandblasting. Both valid outsourcing options, if the processes are cheap enough and my Spanish haggling is up to it (my current technique of filling the target with enough beer that neither of us are talking our native language seems to work- the trick is to get any agreements into my PDA so I remember them in the morning).

I impressed on the chap that smaller=cheaper last night several times, so he'll hopefully convey that to the clients.

I'm working on a euro/minute of machine time (with a little bit of photoshopping/coreldrawing thrown in- serious processing costs 40 euros an hour in 15-minute increments) and nobody has batted an eyelid at that...well I did have one "that seems a little steep", but then I told them what the machine costs new and what a replacement laser costs and he went away happy. With your dollar/minute rule, that gives me 25-and-a-bit cents to play with for volume discounts. How far into the dollar a minute will you guys go to get the volume job without stitching yourselves up?

EDIT: If I do get the job and if it is for 10,000, the FIRST thing I'm going to do is insist on enough up front to get a more powerful laser on it's way to me; so there's less lead time if I do blow this one up. I've been told by 2 separate sources that 30W Synrads are the best power/price/longlevity compromise. Is that true? My current laser was a repossession, so I have absolutely no clue how much time remains on this one- it could have been recently serviced or it could die later today- don't know. Replacing it therefore is a high priority, tactically speaking. On the plus side, 12W doesn't put much stress on anything, so it may last for years, gas aside.

Understanding as my wife is, she has absolutely denied me permission to mount the old laser on our car: "I don't care HOW annoying scooter riders are; you're not allowed". Hmmph.

Scott Shepherd
08-21-2007, 9:58 AM
You think you don't have much room now, wait until 10,000 glasses show up :D

Joe Pelonio
08-21-2007, 10:13 AM
EDIT: If I do get the job and if it is for 10,000, the FIRST thing I'm going to do is insist on enough up front to get a more powerful laser on it's way to me; so there's less lead time if I do blow this one up.
Unless this is going to be an ongoing job, or you are sure to have a lot more work in the future, your new laser will eat up all of the profits and then you'll have one or two lasers sitting with no more work. I'd suggest that you do a test on any material to see how long it takes to do them with a jig, then arrange ahead of time to have 2-3 backup laser people in your area that can help out if your machine goes down. Then have an arrangement where you get 1/2 up front to pay for the glasses, and they pay the balance as they are delivered, maybe 500 at a time.

If all goes well and you can manage to do them all yourself the profit will be worth the trouble.

Darren Null
08-21-2007, 11:25 AM
Room- you're not wrong!

Laser upgrade- You're right Joe- a laser upgrade will eat most of the profits for this job (if it comes off). The problem is that my current laser was bought 'sold as seen'; it works right now and that is a big bonus, but there's no warranty, no backup and I don't know how many hours are on the unit already. A modest upgrade to somewhere around 30W on the laser unit itself will at least give me a slight safety net and warranty...all of the rest of the problems that may crop up with the table are more-or-less dealable with. Plus, 30W will approximately halve my job time which definitely makes sense.

As far as I know I AM the laser people in my area. There's 2 in Granada that I know about, about an hour's drive north, and a couple in Malaga, the same distance west.

David Epperson
08-21-2007, 11:50 AM
Sand blast etch/ Use the laser to cut the stencils. :D
AND outsource, for more help :D

Darren Null
08-23-2007, 6:11 PM
UPDATE: 10,000 turned into MAYBE 500. *sigh*. I sort of expected that in a way; but if I hadn't asked and been prepared then it would have happened too fast for me to get geared up in time.
Thanks for the advice guys. All stored for future reference.

Nancy Laird
08-23-2007, 6:40 PM
So, Darren, 500 glasses at $2.00 a pop (or more??) is still a nice chunk of change. Besides, the 500 now may turn into 1000 or more later. As the frog says as he is being swallowed by the crane, and is trying to choke the crane:

"Don't EVER give up."

Nancy (120 days)

Darren Null
08-23-2007, 7:11 PM
I'm not too disappointed and have no intention of giving up. 10,000 repetitive motions in 27 deg centigrade wasn't particularly appealing anyway, to be honest. I was taking the original job specs with a pinch of salt....although I had to ask how on here just in case it actually happened. I'm only going to believe in the 500 when I'm holding the cash, and even then I'll check the notes- the south coast of Spain is full of scammers.

I'm pursuing other things too; and am still enjoying the daily finding of new things to vapourise.

Stephen Beckham
08-23-2007, 9:25 PM
Darren,

After my reply to your first questions the other day and I said it was do-able.... I have to admit, I had a hypocritical moment. It wasn't 24 hours after my reply - I got a request for 500 wine glasses.

My first thought was - how in the heck am I going to be able to do that? Then I thought back of your thread and said "Self - you can do this."

I'm waiting for confirmation now - I'm looking at charging $4.95 each with a single side engraved (clearing about the $2 to $2.50 range after overhead) and I'm calculating about three days worth of hard work.

Now the big question - I've got to ship them to Texas and that's 43 cases of Glass. What percentage of broken glasses should I expect to arrive...? Who in the heck will deliver 43 cases of glass from KY to TX? Thanks for the inspiration Mr. 10,000....:)

Michael Kowalczyk
08-24-2007, 4:08 PM
Hey Stephen,
Are you using a rotary device to engrave or a 4" lens?
From KY to TX is a 1000 miles plus so every entrance and exit ramp can be a quick tap on the brakes for truckers. Make sure you have them packed well and insure them for retail replacement cost as if you were going to have to do 1 or 2 of them but if they all break you are already set up. Also see if you can do a plus or minus 10%. This way you buy and make 550 and if they all come out good, great, but if a few are defective or break you are covered. Have fun and happy lasering.

Darren Null
08-24-2007, 5:32 PM
It wasn't 24 hours after my reply - I got a request for 500 wine glasses.
Karma turns up in some odd places. hehe

As for the transport, my advice would be to go private, if you can. 43 cases should fill one, maybe 2 pallettes (depends how good the boxes are that the glasses come shipped in), and you should be able to get a reasonable part-load rate if you can find somebody who's going that approximately that direction. Ideally an owner-operator who will take the goods from your hands who will also be the one delivering.
Put em on pallettes and clingfilm them up well and you should be right with that setup. That's how they get to you.

If you're using a courier service you're going to need much better packaging- I used to be a trucker in my yoof; and if my package couldn't withstand a minimum of a 6-foot drop, I wouldn't even consider using a courier company (unless I knew the people involved at every stage, so I had somebody definite to shout at in the case of disaster). Mark the packages 'fragile' prominently, and you'll need to add even more padding- to certain types of minimum-wage courier company employee a 'fragile' label is to be taken as a challenge.

Throwing in a couple of extra cases is a good idea- good PR if everything goes well, and you're covered for minor mishaps.

Stephen Beckham
08-26-2007, 5:14 PM
Thanks guys - I'm using a rotary device vs the 4" lens and I'm not settled on the shipping yet.

Darren Null
08-26-2007, 7:11 PM
Oh yeah- forgot. If you're stacking them on palettes or otherwise, put a sheet of cardboard or two between layers for a little more protection. Don't be tempted to use foam or anything bouncy....the bounce will be multiplied over the layers so if you have 4 layers with 3 layers of bouncy stuff, your top layer will be moving vertically 3x more than the second layer. This can kill your work. or the top layer/s at least. Also, with bouncy stuff between layers, some road surfaces can hit the resonant frequency of your bouncy material which can utterly destroy the whole lot.

Just FYI.

Bruce Volden
08-26-2007, 7:33 PM
Darren,

I have been following this thread closely!!! Over 10 years ago I had a mfgr. ask me to engrave 25 gunstocks~they liked them and then wanted 300,000 engraved the same in-4 months!!!:eek: Of course this wasn't possible and they ended up ordering a woodburning head that could do it in 1/10th the time. I can say that I turned down a $2,100,000 "deal". Unlike you, at that time there were NO forums to pick brains on. I called the laser mfgr. and did learn that they could throw together a Galvo system that could do 10 stocks in about 30 seconds for a price of $180,000! HOWEVER, it would be about 4 months to throw together. Oh well, I have engraved 10's of thousands BBQ handles for major corporations through a wholesaler and that has enabled me to pay for 3 laser-gravers. Now business has slumped off to a degree and I seldom run all 3 ------but I am ready for another big'un:D The thought of engraving "LOT'S" of the same stuff is never fun, but it is profitable. I would encourage anyone on this board to bid out anything they want to and also solicit help from all the members in bailing him out:D :D I'll be here to help:)


Bruce

Bill Cunningham
08-26-2007, 11:33 PM
Finding a carrier to transport glass, is easy.. Finding someone that will 'insure' your glass against breakage is next to impossible.. I ship literally thousands of glasses all over north america, and 'no one' will insure for breakage, only loss.. But all things considered, over the last 4-5 years, and Thousands of glasses, the USPS has only managed to break 4, and the Canadian Post office has never broken a single glass.. However, I don't skimp on the packing either.. I tell my customers the only way anyone is going to break a glass in one of my shipments, is if they literally throw it off a loading dock.. Foam inside and out, overwrapped with cardboard & hotmelt glue, and all secured with fiber tape.. In the rare case where one got broken, I mailed a replacement glass the next day.. ALWAYS keep the customer happy. The feedback is very important. Here is one i received today..


Hi Bill,

Just wanted to let you know that the glasses arrived on time and intact as you indicated.

I would like to thank you for accommodating our very rushed and confusing order! The bride and groom were extremely happy with the results and the guests were quite impressed. The glasses were very well done and suited our needs perfectly.

Thanks again for an amazing job!! I will definitely be putting you at the top of my preferred vendor list!!

Have a fantastic day!

Claudia

When you get feedback like this from virtually every customer, it 'is' like money in the bank..

Darren Null
08-27-2007, 9:56 AM
I tell you Bruce, forums and the internet (and this forum in particular) are a fantastic resource. I bought a repossessed machine with no manual, software, leads and the laser unshipped. I'd never seen a laser engraver in the flesh before this (although I've watched most of the demo videos and read the tech specs of most machines out there (in the category I wanted). Thanks to the guys here, I got it all assembled and working and was ready to take a swing at a pretty large job inside of 3 weeks.

Without forums and similar resources, buying the machine would have been insanity. With SMC it proved to be a bit difficult and financially risky, but everything came together in the end.

And the pooling of resources, knowledge, techniques and clipart makes everybody's work a little better, I think.

To be honest, I'd bid on a 300,000 wooden pieces job now...that's enough to fill a container or two and sub it out to you guys. Anything less than a container full would be uneconomic, as I'm on a different continent.

And good feedback is money in the bank. I always think of it as "Would I be happy to receive this?" Before sending.

David Lavaneri
08-27-2007, 10:44 PM
So. 10,000 glasses. What's the most efficient way of doing it? I have to say that doing exactly the same thing 10,000 times doesn't fill me with joy.
Any ideas?

Darren,

I'm with you. Unless you've done 1 or 2 thousand of an item, (I have) you have no idea how punishing a 10,000 pc. run will be.

In my experience, whenever someone wants a quote for thousands of pieces, they're looking to spend cents-per-unit and not dollars.

IMO, the most efficient way to mark the glasses, is to have them silkscreened, with an ink that produces an imprint, virtually indistingushable from etched glass (unless you touch it).

An ad specialty company can take the job from start-to-finish, including the glass and imprint (most likely) for less than you (or your customer) can buy the glass alone.

They'll also drop ship the order, so you never have the luxury of living in a maze of cardboard boxes.

:D

Not trying to discourage you from taking on a monumental laser job.

It's guaranteed to be an experience you'll never forget.

:)

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

Mike Hood
08-28-2007, 11:03 AM
They're also likely to be "tire kicking". Trying to see how excited you'll get and lower the per piece cost... or just plain pulling your chain a bit.

I know what you mean about the boredom. I did 250 wine glass a few months back for a wedding and it gets pretty boring. Grab a book for some light reading in between runs. :)

Bill Cunningham
08-28-2007, 10:31 PM
You have to be 'very' careful with large quantity quotes..
I will, every so often, get a request for 50 or 100 thousand pieces.. These are always a scam.. and they want it all shipped in 'smaller' quantities paid with foreign (bouncing counterfit) money orders.. I may lose some business, but I never ship out of N.America and always just delete huge quote emails.. Think about it.. even if their serious, they ain't gonna send you a 'real' deposit cheque for 25-50 g's.. If they can afford that kind of stock, they would be using an advertising broker with connections to known companies that 'can' do those numbers and support the up-front costs.. I once had a 'local' guy that wanted 75,000 4x5 4 colour fridge magnets. I gave him a price, and told him I needed a
100'gs up front.. He said but this is for Macdonald's! I said cool!! but I'm not dealing with Macdonald's I dealing with you. I told him it was not likely Madonald's would deal with me, I'm too small.. Why are they dealing with you? I would accept the mortgage on your house as a deposit, if you have enough equity.. Needless to say, no fridge magnets were forthcoming.. This guy was honest, but he was just biting off FAR more than he could chew, and didn't have the business savy to realize it

Darren Null
08-30-2007, 7:28 PM
I quoted on a sliding scale- so much per unit, per 10, per 100, 500, 1,000 amd 10,000. The bloke was tyre kicking though. Haven't heard back from him.