Ceramic tile in table top?

[Frank Campbell]

I have a customer that wants a custom table built. His daughter is a ceramic artist, and has made a set of tiles they want set into the table top. The table top is going to be 30"L X 21"W X 17"H........the array of tiles will measure 18"W X 14"L (including the space in between the tiles). I have never done this before, and considering it took the artist 3 weeks to make the tiles, I would hate to screw this up.

The base is going to be Poplar (painted black) and the table top is going to be Flame Birch. Originally I had considered routing a depression into the table top and setting the tiles into it that way. The Flame Birch stock I have is 1 1/8" thick (rough) I may be able to get it to 7/8ths but 3/4" is more realistic. The tiles measure just under a 1/4" thick. I am not going to have enough room, so I may have to build some kind of sub base under the table top to allow for more depth. I was also told that I should adhere a piece of cement board into the cut out because the tiles will not adhere to wood very well. The other concern is that I would hate to see the grout crack as the wood moves with environmental changes.

Has anyone done anything like this before? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Frank in New Hampshire

[Roger Ronas]

Hello Frank,
My opinion is based on having done 1 table with tile inserted in field. It is in my home and has been for 6 years. It's been moved about from one house to another as well.

I used 3/4 MDF as a base and my edging is 1 1/16 maple. I raised the edge 5/16 taller then MDF to allow for 1/4 tile and 1/16 glue. The grout lines are 1/4" and no problems in 6 years.
I wouldn't think that cement board would help any on a table.

All of this is based like I said on 1 table.

HTH
Roger

[Chuck Lenz]

I've never done a table with a ceramic tile top, but I did my kitchen floor and I do remember the subfloor had to be pretty thick because you don't want ANY flex in the floor at all. I used the 5/16 ths rigid concrete board glued and scewed every 4 square inches ontop of a 1 3/8 ths subfloor. I felt it was better to overbuild than underbuild.

[Matt Meiser]

A friend of mine who is not a woodworker built a table with a tile top with some a little help from me and a lot of help from someone at his church. His even has a leaf. He used 3/4" baltic birch as the base which worked out well for him. He then put a rather hefty band of maple around the edges which added considerably to the stiffness. The table you are building is going to be small enough I don't think you'd have a problem with flex. I'd be more worried about wood movement using solid wood.

[David DeCristoforo]

I'm with Matt on this. A 3/4 plywood (not MDF!) top wrapped with the wood of your choice. I made a lot of tile topped tables in the mid 70's and this proved to be the best option. You don't need "cement board". Just mastic the tiles right to the plywood. I used to use exterior grade fir ply but any ply will work fine. The only issue I ever had was with the wood edge seperating a bit from the grout. To get around this I started making the tables with the tiles butted right to the wood with grout between the tiles only. Laying the tiles over solid wood is asking for trouble.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Frank,
What you are really worried about here is the wood moving and causing the tile and grout to crack. Michael Byrne authored a book "Setting Tile" published by Taunton. In the book he recommends and I did it, using a color matched caulk, regular or sanded caulk depending the the width of the grout lines. I designed and built a tile shower. Each wall is a floating wall. At each corner and at the bottom of the wall is a 1/4" gap. I contacted the company recommend in Byrne's book and they made me several tubes of color matched sanded caulk. The choice of colors was staggering. Literally, I don't know how many people have looked at that shower and can't tell where the grout ends and the caulk begins. When it is used, the grout will change color as it absorbs moisture and the caulk doesn't so then the difference is apparent until the grout dries. Using this latex caulk, the walls can expand and contract without touching the adjoining surfaces and thus no cracks.

You might inlay into the birch top a piece of 1/4" plywood the size of your tile field , then set your tile on it using mastic and use either a colored latex caulk or a colored sanded latex caulk to fill the grout lines.Thus if anything expands or contracts, the caulk will give and should protect the tiles.

Good luck with your project!

[Nancy Laird]

Frank. LOML and I bought a table with a tile top, and last year built a smaller one in the same style. You can see a picture in this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=49913

The table we bought had an MDF sub-base for the tile, so that's what we used. The now-11-year-old table has had no movement, no cracked tiles, no broken or cracked joints between the tiles.
Of course the table is heavy, having a top of MDF, but it's stable.

Use the matching silicon caulk to keep from having to seal a grout line.

Nancy (123 days) (it's after midnight)

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Frank,
My brothers and I have done many ceramic tile countertops and tables. The countertop and table in my home is also ceramic and nearing 18 years old. Here's a couple of thoughts...

1. For the underlayment, use two layers of 3/4" plywood. BC grade is sufficient. Just make sure you don't buy warped material. Glue the C-sides together and reinforce with 1-1/4" drywall screws every 6 inches.

2. Band the edges with solid wood stock. Use water resistant yellow glue. Biscuit jointing is nice, but not necessary. When finishing the edgebanding, do not use water based products. Windex (ammonia) will attack the water based finish and make it tacky.

3. Ceramic tiles can be set with mastic or latex modified thinset. Both work well with plywood. In fact, plywood is choice for these products. Thinset is a little easier to work with because it's water clean up.

4. You can use either sanded or unsanded grout. Unsanded grout is smoother and wipes easier. Most grouts have a built-in latex additive in the mix. If not, you can purchase latex additive in liquid form.

5. A grout sealer is available too. However, I don't bother with it. I do recommend that you use darker colored grout though. Grease, like butter and olive oil, may darken the grout over time, but you have to be a pretty sloppy eater that doesn't wipe the table down when done.

cheers, Jeff :)

[Bob Childress]

Frank,

The advice ragarding the danger of a solid-wood top is right on. At the very least, do as Ken suggests and inlay a 1/4 piece of ply to keep the mastic separated from the solid wood. There are other ways to do this, too, but it is important to present a barrier between the solid wood and the tile glue.

I made a table with inset tiles recently. The first top was solid poplar which I routed out to accomodate the tiles. After I glued the tiles in, the next morning had a very large crack in the table top from the moisture in the mastic. Trash bin. :(

Top 2 was solid poplar but with a cutout completely through the top. I then rabetted from the bottom 3/8 x 3/8 or so, and inlaid a piece of ply, flipped the top over and set the tiles--no problems. As suggested, use color-matched caulk, not grout, to give flexibility and prevent grout cracks. If I had it to do again, I would make the full cutout a bit smaller than needed and then rabbet from the top for the plywood inlay.

[Jim Heffner]

Frank, I agree with the previous posters about the top and using mdf under it. As to attaching the tiles, why not try some liquid nails adhesive
that stuff really sticks! May be a easier, and less messier way of attachment of the tiles....my .02 worth anyway. Jim Heffner

[Tim Lynch]

I've learned a lot about tiling from the John Bridge tile forum. You might want to wander over there.

The pros there are pretty consistent in their recommendations for a lasting tile installation. Yes, like anything, there are many ways to do things. If you want to err on the side of safety, you'd probably want to follow the advice dispensed there. I did, and my bathroom tile is holding up very well, including my tiled vanity top. They would say:

A well supported substructure, say supports 16" on center.

Exterior grade plywood, preferably two 3/4" layers with a full spread of yellow glue between and thoroughly screwed together.

A suitable tile bonding substrate, such as 1/4" cement board or a product like Schluter Ditra, properly applied. This means a cement based thinset under the cement board to fill voids, then the cement board screwed down thoroughly. Any seams would be taped w/ alkali-resistant tape and thinset.

A cement based latex modified thinset to set the tiles.

A good grout and grout sealer. SpectraLock epoxy grout is particularly good... needs no sealer.

Matching caulk around your perimeter where you meet the wood edging.


This table then would have the structure and durability of a floor installation. Is that overkill? Probably. Is it that much more work/cost than doing it with MDF and organic mastic? Not really. You have to figure, someone someday will climb up on that table! :rolleyes:

Good luck with it!

Tim

[Kenny King]

I also recommend John Bridge's Tile forum and have gotten great info on that sight.

Based on reading and experience, I believe that a latex additive to the grout will make it more flexible and less apt to crack, and hence probably a good thing to do when setting tile on a substrate that will contract/expand at a different rate than the tile and grout layer.

- Ken

[Greg Dykes]

I set tile for a living. To be more specific, I have 3 crews that work for me and also have the local Lowe's contract for flooring. I have done OHHH about 200 counter tops, 50 or so tables and many other weird projects that some of these artist type dream up.

Here is my rule of thumb for tile on tables and counter tops. 3/4" will work for any area that is 24" x 24" as long as there is at least 1" vertical support underneath. To put it another way. If I was to make a 24" x 24" table I would use a 3/4" x 1" or 1 1/2" board around the perimeter (or at least no more than 4" from the sides. If it spans more than 24" but less than 36", I would add 1/4" plywood (glued to the 3/4") or 1/4" cement board (I prefer Hardi-Backer) and this you can spread a thin coat of thin set (1/4" notched trowel) and then screw the Hardi-Backer to the 3/4" plywood.

I try not to use MDF since it does not have good "span" characteristics. It tends to sag a bit.

For those you say Tile cannot adhere to wood......BS!!!! Go to Lowe's and get some Mapei Ultra-Flex Type II and use a 1/4" notched trowel.

As for the Grout. Unsanded grout is intended for grout joints that are under 1/8" wide. Anything over, use sanded grout. For this small of an area, you can find grout in a caulk tube that will be much easier to work with and not such a mess.