What bit do I use for this ? Router

[Craig D Peltier]

Hi could you please provide me direction to buy the right bit for this. The angle/bevel is 1 1/8th wide (before it enters frame) and its fitting into a 1/4wide by 3/8 deep rabbett.
It seems to have a little lip where it meets the flat spot.
Thanks70107

70108

70109

[Steve Clardy]

You need a vertical panel door bit for a router.

Sorry, don't have a pic handy.

[Steve Clardy]

Found it.


http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1187299367_1193+88

[Gary Curtis]

You have a raised panel, as shown in the picture. It looks like it has a straight bevel edge, so in cabinetmaking terminology, that would be either a "Traditional" or "Shaker Style" raised panel.

There are two choices for making the cut. The safer choice is Vertical Panel Raiser bit. I say safer, because the other style bit looks like a flying saucer and will be more than 3" in diameter. Most mortal humans recoil at standing near a 3" bit rotating at 20,000 rpms. Dangerous ground here.

The vertical panel raisers are half that size. Maybe less.

If in fact that raised panel is truly a Shaker Style, meaning a perfectly flat bevel, it could also be cut with a straight bit by holding the panel vertically and at a small angle. That's a third router bit option. I've never done it myself, but it is common practice for such a simple profile.

I hope others who are more experienced will chime in here.

Gary Curtis

[simo sentissi]

why don't you do you using your TS ?

[frank shic]

I agree with Simo. The tablesaw can EASILY accomplish that task and whip through it in ONE pass although you should use either a sled for raising the panel or bolt a fence extension to the table saw fence.

[Michael Schwartz]

There are two choices for making the cut. The safer choice is Vertical Panel Raiser bit. I say safer, because the other style bit looks like a flying saucer and will be more than 3" in diameter. Most mortal humans recoil at standing near a 3" bit rotating at 20,000 rpms. Dangerous ground here.



The proper speed for a 3" bit would be 8000 RPM in a variable speed router. It is extremely dangerous to attempt to use a bit of this diameter at 20,000 RPM.

[Gary Curtis]

The proper speed for a 3" bit would be 8000 RPM in a variable speed router. It is extremely dangerous to attempt to use a bit of this diameter at 20,000 RPM.

I agree. Those big diameter cutters are spooky. And the others are right in suggesting a Tablesaw for the job. My ignorance.

Gary Curtis

[David DeCristoforo]

Well, I'm just amazed. I have never felt comfortable running panel raising bits on a router, preferring the extra mass and power of a shaper for this. But I am surprised that there is no one who will suggest using a bit like this:

http://www.woodworkersworld.net/lg_raised_panel_bits.shtml

Which should be safe enough if several light passes are made.

A vertical bit is an option but you would need to construct a fence tall enough to support your panels properly. BTW, a table saw will not do this in one cut as suggested. The "fielded" area of the panel would be undercut by the table saw blade, requiring additional work to create the slight "inward" bevel shown in your pictures. In addition, a table saw cut will make a "full" bevel without the flat "lip" that fits into the groove. You can use the panel with a fully tapered edge...it's just a bit trickier to fit the panel into the groove.

[Steve Clardy]

Well, I'm just amazed. I have never felt comfortable running panel raising bits on a router, preferring the extra mass and power of a shaper for this. But I am surprised that there is no one who will suggest using a bit like this:

http://www.woodworkersworld.net/lg_raised_panel_bits.shtml

Which should be safe enough if several light passes are made.

A vertical bit is an option but you would need to construct a fence tall enough to support your panels properly. BTW, a table saw will not do this in one cut as suggested. The "fielded" area of the panel would be undercut by the table saw blade, requiring additional work to create the slight "inward" bevel shown in your pictures. In addition, a table saw cut will make a "full" bevel without the flat "lip" that fits into the groove. You can use the panel with a fully tapered edge...it's just a bit trickier to fit the panel into the groove.

I use a shaper only for panels.
I assumed he doesn't have a shaper. Maybe I should have asked before suggesting a vertical router bit.:)

[Craig D Peltier]

No shaper, I have a Bosch router an table.
So im confused,
No Table saw.
Yes - Vertical Panel bit
Yes- Flying saucer type- but scary to some.

Is that correct?

Thanks

[David DeCristoforo]

I use a shaper only for panels.
I assumed he doesn't have a shaper. Maybe I should have asked before suggesting a vertical router bit.:)

Didn't mean to be critical of your advice Steve....I just assumed he didn't have a shaper because I could not imagine anyone who did wanting to do panel raising with a router.....

[David DeCristoforo]

I would use the "flying saucer" bit (love that description BTW) in your router table. Just don't spin the bit faster that the recommended speed and take a few passes rather than trying to hog out the whole thing at once....

[Steve Clardy]

Didn't mean to be critical of your advice Steve....I just assumed he didn't have a shaper because I could not imagine anyone who did wanting to do panel raising with a router.....


No problem here ;) :D

[Craig D Peltier]

My router says speed 1 for 8000 rpm and 2 is for 13500 and up from there.
Its the Bosch 1617 EVS.

[Scot Ferraro]

The "flying-saucer" bits work great -- I just got done routing a whole kitchen worth of cabinets with one from Whiteside with no issues -- I suggest the three-wing style as they are smoother than the 2-wing style. I also recommend the Lonnie Bird hold-down that Bench Dog Tools sells -- this puts pressure down across the whole cut and it completely covers the bit keeping your hands well away -- very good way to go. Also, you can get a different size bearing (bigger) to make the initial pass and then switch to the smaller bit for the final cut. Take several passes so you do not stall your router or put undue stress on the bit and you should be good-to-go. I have used vertical bits before but these chatter a lot and the finish is not as good.

Good luck,

Scot

[Jim Becker]

I use a Freud "2+2" design for raising panels in that style in the rare moment I do it. It's one of the "flying saucer" designs with some alternate shear angles that seem to help with keeping things clean and crisp. (I don't have a shaper and it's unlikely I'll have one anytime soon...although you never know!)

You can do these on the table saw with a tall fence/jig that rides on the rip fence. The only downside is that you can't get the portion that will enter the groove in the rails and stiles flat with that method so you need to be pretty careful to adjust the cut so that the thickness is correct at the exact spot the panel engages the rails and stiles so they don't move around easily.

[frank shic]

excellent point, jim! there are tradeoffs with every technique.

[glenn bradley]

Craig,

Shaker style raised panel bit set. I have no trouble running bits this size in the RT with the Milwaukee 5625. It does look a little intimidating the first time you run a large bit. No different than the first time you see a dado stack in your table saw.

Several folks make these. If you are doing a whole kitchen, don't scrimp on this bit set. If you're doing 2 or 4 doors, any decent quality set should see you through.

If it was me:

http://www.router-bits-shaper-cutters.com/products/index.cfm?Product_ID=1561&Product_Category_ID=215&Product_Group_ID=15

from the vendor of your choice.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...It does look a little intimidating the first time you run a large bit..."

Too true. But if you start out slow and careful, common sense will (should) prevail. And it really is a question of "compared to what". For example, take a look at this setup:
http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/shaper/
for a curved bar rail. My son and I had our stomachs in our throats the whole time. That cutter is on a 1.25" spindle with a 7 HP motor behind it and it still took 28 passes to get it down!

[Bill Hylton]

Craig,

That doesn't look to me like a bevel cut by a standard raised panel bit. To my eye, it appears narrower than 1" with a steeper bevel angle. But I could be wrong, of course.

The most common straight-bevel raised panel bits (both horizontal and vertical) produce a 1" wide bevel at an angle of 15 to 17 degrees with a 3/8" wide tongue. A few manufacturers, Freud pops into my mind as one, make bits that cut a narrower and steeper bevel. I don't have the Freud catalog in front of me, so I can't cite a specific bit number as an example. I do recall that these bits are horizontal rather than vertical, but they'll be roughly 2 1/2" dia. rather than 3 1/2", which is good for you.

Given your equipment, I'd recommend you stay away from the large horizontal bits. In addition to lower rpms, such bits require a lot of horsepower to keep spinning. 2 1/4 hp. isn't really enough. It is enough power, however, to spin a standard-size vertical bit or a smaller horizontal bit (which might actually be what you want).

But do NOT believe that your setup is insufficient for the task. If you choose the right bit and setup, you can get the job quite quickly, easily, AND SAFELY.

I wrote a book about doing frame-and-panel work, and it's got 30+ pages of information about making raised panels, a lot more useful info than can be conveyed in a relatively brief posting. Shows style of available bits, setups, and work routines. Even has a jig for routing straight-bevel raised panels with a straight or planer bit. Pertinent to your situation, it shows how to raise a standard-size panel on a benchtop table with a 1 1/2" hp router and a vertical bit. Includes plans for a simple, functional fence to use.

I don't think I dare mention the book's title because that would constitute "advertising." (Nooo, it's not Voldemort. Haha.)

Hope this is of use to you. Good luck with your project.

Bill

[mike roe]

I used a freud set - 99-100 i think - you can get the panel raising bit alone. That looks like a pretty small reveal though. Maybe a small panel raiser bit.

If i ever do raised panel doors again i think ill give it a try on the table saw. I made about 16 doors and it took forever on a router table. i only felt comfortable taking very slight passes which results in taking LOTS of passes to get to the final profile. and when you first turn on the router with that HUGE hunk of steel spinning... well i backed away the first time - its a little scary.

I also noticed that with the freud panel raiser bit it tender to create a downdraft (sort of like a propeller) which put tons of dust straight down into the router. And that was with a fence with a shop vac running. The shop vac took care of almost all the dust using the cope and stick cutters but the panel raising bit created a strong downward airflow.

have fun

[frank shic]

hey mike, i can only think of one more way of raising panels with a router even more fun: using MDF for the panel!!! haha... there was dust EVERYWHERE despite my best attempts to control it with a minicyclone - the little bugger just could not keep up! i did get a warm, fuzzy feeling when bill (your books ROCK ROCK ROCK!!!) responded, though... :D

[Paul Simmel]

Raising panels on either a shaper or router table, with the larger diameter horizontal cutters/bits, is one of the safest operations there is! You are to run your panel face down… the cutter is facing up. You push the panel down, into and onto the cutter as you pass. There is no exposed part of the cutter during the pass. Since no one has mentioned this, I am assuming the fear stems from either seeing, or imagining a cutter on top (fully exposed with the panel between it and the table… a big no-no). My shaper runs at 7000 or 10,000 rpms. I nearly always run at 7000.

[Craig D Peltier]

Thanks everyone! Alot of advice. This site is priceless.:cool:

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...and its fitting into a 1/4wide by 3/8 deep rabbett...
Rabbet/rebate or a groove?

fwiw, here's my panel fielding "bit." It is pretty safe to use no matter how fast I run her ;)

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/plow/panel1.jpg

Though the profile isn't the same...

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/plow/panel3.jpg

It is adjustable, though...Nearly as old as our country.

Take care, Mike

[frank shic]

...and i think that pretty much covers every method apart from gnawing at the wood with your teeth! i'm surprised the galoots haven't responded earlier. :eek:

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Trust me, Frank. I've ran a lot of panels on my shaper.

But if I have just a few to do? Nah. Pretty easy with a plane. And it doesn't need to be an actual panel raising/fielding plane either. The profile in this thread has been done with moving fillisters, skewed rabbet, shoulder and even the lowly Stanley #78 planes for one or two years.

Ever wonder how the Shakers did their raised panels? <g>...

Take care, Mike

[frank shic]

alright mike, i'm DYING to know: how much was that raised panel plane you posted? i went through a brief phase of hand tools and i noticed that those puppies were going for a pretty penny on ebay! correction: the prices have gone down substantially. hmmm...;)

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Frank, it was spendy (to my way of thinking). There are not many panel fielding planes (planes period) from the last quarter of the 1700s floating about. iirc, I paid $200 or there abouts.

But if that seems high, here's one a UK Workshop forum member sent me for gratis:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/uk_workshop/items_0005.jpg

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/uk_workshop/items_0005a.jpg

Nice profile, perfect for the scale I typically build. Also...it's older than our country by 25 years or so.

More to the point, I have commissioned a new planemaker to make the following panel raising plane. It's the one on the left. This is the first molding plane style panel plane I have ever seen. I lost the MJD auction for that plane. It's size is perfect for drawer bottoms, small furniture panels and boxes.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/plow/panel_raising.jpg

Sorry for the rabbit trail, y'all. They really shouldn't let me come up here <g>...

Take care, Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Found it.


http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1187299367_1193+88



What he said. You''ll have more profile geometry options and the straight up bit is way far easier to use than the big diameter panel raising bits.

[Brian Weick]

The proper speed for a 3" bit would be 8000 RPM in a variable speed router. It is extremely dangerous to attempt to use a bit of this diameter at 20,000 RPM.

ditto- couldn't agree more with you Mike- if it were me - the 3" horizontal bit is the way to go! Using a vertical bit is OK-but awkward when you have to take the panel and shape it vertically. i would prefer to have it flat on the router table and run it through- but not at 20,000 rpm- thats insane! you have to make a couple of passes but it will be more accurate in my opinion.
Brian

[Jim Becker]

Mike W, I'm glad you responded as you did in this thread...I think it's important to occasionally point out that there are so many methods available to do things. Sometimes with the commercialization/marketing we are all subjected to, we can easily forget that the Neander tools and methods are valid for consideration by anyone!

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hey Jim--I'm not foolish enough to try and convert others, no matter how subtle or not.

I had looked at the thread once or twice before and I figured the OP question had been answered a couple times over. I have to admit I did chuckle over the word "safe" in a couple responses.

Me, the shaper and the power feeder got along just fine when I had the shop. Even so, if there was anything "serious" about the first post of mine in the thread is that often the hand tool method is faster for many smaller scale operations (unless the power tool widget is left set up).

In a router table--been there--the vertical bit is less stressful both on the panel and me. The horizontal bits for many profiles do work fine with a decent router, though. Even so, I opted for the vertical bits when using my larger Festool 2000 router. Seemed I got a nicer cut, could move the panels through faster, was easier to use strong featherboards to keep the stock against the fence and so felt the finish was nicer.

Take care, Mike