Gallery Display

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Hi,

Well my pen's are now being displayed in a local main street gallery, a goal of mine to achieve this year.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/Pens/CAA34P2F.jpg

I hope they find new homes really soon...;)

[Harvey M. Taylor]

I like them, im. Hope you make a good profit from them.

[Ed Scolforo]

Jim, nice display setup and I'm happy that they're behind glass. If I may say so, I find the placement of the tags to detract from the overall look of the pens since they pretty much cover the tops. I hope you sell them all!!

[Joe Tonich]

SWEET! You make the pen display stands, Jim?

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

SWEET! You make the pen display stands, Jim?

Thanks Joe, I made the mahogany pen benches...:D

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

I find the placement of the tags to detract from the overall look of the pens since they pretty much cover the tops

Thanks Ed,

I agree, I flipped them over the other day, they look much better now:)

[Jim Becker]

Hey...they even have their own personal guards above and below!!! :D :D

Congrats on the gallery space, Jim!

[Steve Schlumpf]

Beautiful display Jim! Congrats on getting your pens into the gallery and I hope you sell all of them!

[Mike A. Smith]

Congratulations Jim, they look great!

[Jeffrey Fusaro]

nice display and assortment of pens, jim.

congrats!

i hope they all sell for you.

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Hi,

Thanks every one for your kind comments.


On Another Note:
I must express my sincere regrets, I was contacted by a moderator via PM today to tell me that they had recieved two complaints in two days about my post, that it was advertising and I had stepped across the line. I respect very much that I was contacted privately about this concern, I feel that those who complained had the right to do so, but I also feel that it was nit picking considering some of the other posts I have seen here at times about self promotion.

I respect that there are rules, I do not see how my post was advertising, I do not make a living from my hobby and if I knew your work was in a gallery in a place I could go and see it I might take the time to do so. But the rules are here to be enforced evenly and I hope to see a fair application of those rules here for all, again my regrets to those who feel so offended.

My apologies also to the moderator who had to handle the situation, but he handled it with class and dignity.

[Glenn Clabo]

Jim,
There is NO need to feel bad about anything you've done. I'm getting the feeling that there are some people around here that are stirring the pot just to see what happens. If what you have done is advertizing...then everyone who posts what they have done is also.

COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!!

BTW...Sorry I didn't take the time to say this when I first saw your pens...As always...Great work. I look forward to everything you do and post. I NEVER miss one.

[Dominic Greco]

I was contacted by a moderator via PM today to tell me that they had recieved two complaints in two days about my post, that it was advertising and I had stepped across the line.

Jim,
Brutal, absolutely brutal! I feel for you buddy. This is just another example of nit picking.

What was that line from "Star Wars" that Pricess Leia said? "...the more you tighten your grip, the more Rebel Worlds will trickle through your fingers"

Apologies to the various Star Wars fanatics out there for my paraphrasing.

[Patrick Taylor]

So the photo is what made it advertising? It seems to me that removal of the photo is the only change to your original post. If removal of the photo alone makes it ok, then I have a hard time believing that your post constitutes advertising!

Hypothetically, does mentioning your gallery news alone constitute advertising since we have your website URL in your profile? I hope not because I enjoy hearing about everyone's good fortunes! And frankly I want to see the photo because it provides value to the community as an example!

Not to make mountains of molehills here but when part of what we talk about here is selling our work it's hard to avoid implying that we have work available for sale! :rolleyes: Enforcing a policy with a black and white approach seems impossible when the policy itself has so much grey area. :(

[Frank Kobilsek]

Jim,
Congrats, the funky water we got in the Creek lately will all be washed down stream by the success of others like you, Good Luck.
Frank

[TYLER WOOD]

I agree that what you have here to me does not comstitute advertising. You are not telling where the gallery is, how to purchase them, pricing information or really anything other than gloating that you got them in a shop. No more attempting to sell as saying my stuff is giong to be in a gallery. Pics don't make it advertising. Hopefully the swell of agitating stuff and agitator's will receed as quickly as my hairline!!!!

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

I agree that what you have here to me does not comstitute advertising. You are not telling where the gallery is, how to purchase them, pricing information or really anything other than gloating that you got them in a shop. No more attempting to sell as saying my stuff is giong to be in a gallery. Pics don't make it advertising. Hopefully the swell of agitating stuff and agitator's will receed as quickly as my hairline!!!!

Thanks Tyler,

I had mentioned the name of the street in Oakville that the gallery was on and the name of the gallery....that was the problem.....good thing I had the tags turned over as well, otherwise the picture might be offensive too.:eek:

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Jim,
Congrats, the funky water we got in the Creek lately will all be washed down stream by the success of others like you, Good Luck.
Frank

No kidding Frank.....thanks for your kind thoughts......was that a flushing sound I just heard????

[Keith Burns]

I'm sorry but GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Martin Shupe]

Jim, I am on your side, and Bill G's, too.

If this continues, it will be to SMC's detriment. People will leave, and monetary support will decline.

I have been here since day one. It is a shame to see an excellent forum jump the shark.

Perhaps it is time to review the TOS.

Perhaps next time you could post a pic of your pens in the Classifieds. Maybe then no one will complain.:rolleyes:

[Grant Wilkinson]

Jim

I should have taken the time before to congratulate you on your gallery success. Mea culpa. I really like your work, and have used some of your ideas in the past, as you know.

As to the issue of advertising or not, I don't envy the moderators. We all post pictures of our work. Some of us sell it, some don't. (Some of us dream of doing so when we grow up.) If those of us who can sell from time to time should not put up pics or describe how we went from blank to pen, so be it, but since I joined this forum and paid my money to see and read such information, I'll not contribute financially any more if such posts are prohibited in the future.

I assume that the two people who complained have never posted pictures of their work. Or, if they have, that they do not sell any of their work. It would be interesting to know what offended their delicate sensibilities - the fact that you proudly displayed your work here for us to see and be pleased for you about, or the fact that they have not been able to do likewise.

Between this issue and the Grumbine issue, the tone of the forum has been darkened over the last several days. With luck, those that have complained will see that the majority are against them, and they will fold their tents and slip away.

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

I'm sorry but GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Kidding Keith

[Barry Stratton]

Great display Jim and best of luck with the sales!!

[Vince Welch]

Hi Jim,

The pens and displays look really great!

Vince

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Hi Jim,

The pens and displays look really great!

Vince

Thanks Vince, Grant and Barry,

I appreciate all your kind words and thoughts.


Hope things have been well for you Vince, I am going to miss Indyfest this year unfortunetly

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Perhaps next time you could post a pic of your pens in the Classifieds. Maybe then no one will complain.:rolleyes:

Thanks Martin,

Well that is a thought, but I suspect that some people are just out to get their 2 cents in where ever they can find a slot, pathetic really, but they are the ones wasting their valued time stiring up " issues" making things worse..

I have some work to complete before my pending surgery, not sure if I'll be able to post it here or not.

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm probably going to regret this, but in the interests of full disclosure...

If asking a moderator (via PM, not the "Report Post" button) whether a post would be considered "advertising" constitutes a "complaint", then I'm one of the two "complainers". When the "Grumbine Affair" started, I made a post (now purged, so I can't quote it) that asked, if what Bill had said was advertising, then what about stuff like this and the mention by Mark Duginske of his book? At the time, I was merely trying to point out the probable end of the path that was being taken and, by doing so, nudge things back toward sanity. Turns out, I was simply being prophetic.

For the record:
I do not believe that what Bill Grumbine originally posted in his demo thread was "advertising".
I do not believe that what Mark Duginske originally posted in his bandsaw thread was "advertising".
And I definitely do not believe that what Jim Shaver originally posted in this thread was "advertising".

I am being as emphatic as possible about this, because at least one moderator has indicated to me that he believes I agree with the actions taken in these cases. (In case anyone hasn't noticed, I'm not fond of people putting words into my mouth...or taking them out, for that matter.)

Posts like Jim's are a staple of this forum and have been for as long as I've been here. With the current hysteria over advertising, I can see the day when any work posted here will contain a disclaimer of the form:

"I can neither confirm nor deny that any of my work displayed here has been sold, offered for sale, or will be sold or offered for sale in the future."

See how silly this gets? If the Powers-That-Be are going to enforce the TOS on the basis of purging the mere appearance of advertising, the situation devolves to one where perception is more important than reality.(Anyone who has had any contact with "corporate ethics training" in the last decade knows exactly what I'm talking about.)

Again, my sincere apologies to Jim and Mark for any pain/aggravation/whatever I inadvertently caused you. And Bill, I know you won't see this, but I already miss your wisdom and generosity.

(None of the above should be considered a personal attack on anyone...unless of course you are actually guilty of this kind of silliness, in which case, I think you already know my opinion of you.)

[Keith Outten]

Lots of complaints, observations and directives but not one solution offered that will satisfy the majority here.

Lee, thanks for reporting posts that you didn't think were problems to begin with .
Why ask a question concerning an event you don't think is a problem?
Why not just leave well enough alone?
Are you just stirring the pot?
I also wonder if you are at least partly responsible for some of the problems lately?
Sometimes jokes backfire and people get hurt :(

.

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Lee,

Thank You for your post. I habour no ill feelings at all towards you, rather I respect that you have the courage to identify yourself here in this issue.

I have tried to be honest and fair in my posts with respects to my work. I was approached in a very dignified way by a moderator to change my post, I respected that some felt that my post may have been too overt by naming the gallery and location (Oakville is a busy town:D ). I have read some clearly focused posts here in the past that were about self promotion and not seen any adjustments at all.

All I care to see here is a level and even application of the rules here. With all the confusion and bantering, behind the scenes, happenings and twists I feel less comfortable now to post my work or share my thoughts. I think the forum is in a big mess and it's not up to the members to clear up what they can't see or not know about...it's time for some leardership to be shown around here and the air to be cleared. In the mean time I will be taking care of myself in preperation for my coming surgery and I hope that some one who has the vision of what SMC should be gets it back on track.

Lee, I am good with you sir, be well

[Patrick Taylor]

...I think the forum is in a big mess and it's not up to the members to clear up what they can't see or not know about...it's time for some leardership to be shown around here and the air to be cleared. In the mean time I will be taking care of myself in preperation for my coming surgery and I hope that some one who has the vision of what SMC should be gets it back on track.

Jim, while I agree mostly, I do feel that the members can do something to shape the forum and show the powers that be what we'd like to see this forum become... by posting exactly what our thoughts are and to continue sharing and commenting on each other's work. I plan to do just that... keep posting work and getting great feedback, because that's what I want this forum to be. I hope others will continue to share their work, experiences, and ideas without fear so we can all continue to learn from each other.

Best wishes with your surgery and take care.

Respectfully,
Pat

[Bob Hallowell]

Jim,
First let me say that your pens are wonderful. I wondered if you would recieve flack over your post cause of the " Grumbine incedent" yes you posted where you could view and buy your pens but this is a turning forum and I am sorry but the only reason someone from here would go there would be to see your work in person or to get some ideas for themselves and then turn one like it.
Would that of been a commercial post on a "writers forum" yes but not a turners forum. I could list all the pens for sale I had on a differnet thread in this forum and guess what none would sell UNLESS IT WAS FOR CHARITY.

Letss be friends and get on with the nice peaceful forum we turned back into after George left.

Bob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'm probably going to regret this, but in the interests of full disclosure...

If asking a moderator (via PM, not the "Report Post" button) whether a post would be considered "advertising" constitutes a "complaint", then I'm one of the two "complainers".



Posts like Jim's are a staple of this forum and have been for as long as I've been here. With the current hysteria over advertising, I can see the day when any work posted here will contain a disclaimer of the form:


Again, my sincere apologies to Jim and Mark for any pain/aggravation/whatever I inadvertently caused you.

(None of the above should be considered a personal attack on anyone...unless of course you are actually guilty of this kind of silliness, in which case, I think you already know my opinion of you.)


Lee,

Thank You for your post. I habour no ill feelings at all towards you, rather I respect that you have the courage to identify yourself here in this issue.

I have tried to be honest and fair in my posts with respects to my work. I was approached in a very dignified way by a moderator to change my post, I respected that some felt that my post may have been too overt by naming the gallery and location (Oakville is a busy town:D ). I have read some clearly focused posts here in the past that were about self promotion and not seen any adjustments at all.

All I care to see here is a level and even application of the rules here. With all the confusion and bantering, behind the scenes, happenings and twists I feel less comfortable now to post my work or share my thoughts. I think the forum is in a big mess and it's not up to the members to clear up what they can't see or not know about...it's time for some leardership to be shown around here and the air to be cleared. In the mean time I will be taking care of myself in preperation for my coming surgery and I hope that some one who has the vision of what SMC should be gets it back on track.

Lee, I am good with you sir, be well

Lee and Jim,

First let me say Lee WAS NOT one of the persons who sent me a PM or reported the post as one containing advertisement. I will not reveal who did but I can document those reports and PMs.

I AM the moderator who edited the post.

I received 2 complaints in two days that each of the two members felt Jim was advertising by making statements that the pens were on display in a gallery on XXXXXXXx Street.

I didn't agree but I wanted to try to please everyone.

Again...that grey area. So here's my reasoning about my decision:


1. Jim should be proud that he was invited to display his pens in a gallery.

2. Jim was asked to display his pens for sale in a galary on a major street in his local area. There is a significant difference IMHO in one being asked to display their works at Wanda's card table located in the alley between 1st and 2nd Streets and being asked to display one's works at a gallery on a major street. I wanted to this distinction to be readily distinguished.

3. If I removed references to the exact location of the gallery but indicated it was a gallery on a major street, the average member would realize I wasn't talking about Wanda's card table.

So I sent a PM to Jim asking for his understanding and edited the post.

I now realize that there is absolutely no way I can please all of the members all of the time. With the number of members we have it ISN'T going to happen.

In these matters, I and the other moderators will receive criticism if we don't edit the posts or move the threads. Likewise we will receive criticism if we do edit threads or posts.

PS.....I hope I didn't offend Wanda...I'm not berating your card table shop in the alley between 1st and 2nd Streets in what ever town you might be located.:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim.........Good luck with the upcoming surgery. I'll keep you in my thoughts.

[Thom Taylor]

Jim, very nice pens good luck in your endeavor.
OK I must now put my 2 cents in.
I am a new member to this forum but not a new turner or WW’er. I make pens and over the years I developed a style what works for me, we all have done this, to each his own. I like seeing other peoples work and learn their how-to’s, I like to show my work and answer any questions on my how-to’s. Yes, I sell my pens; our woodworking club also gives demos at the State fair. I believe in the freedom to pass along information to interested parties. Passing information along is the way we as a people learn and advance our knowledge. Yes in a way that might be called self-promotion.
Over the last few days I have seen very petty grievances and censorship take place in this forum, that don’t appear in other forums. I am not going to try to correct any behaviors here, that’s not my job. I just wanted to share my experiences and pick up a few tips in woodworking, turning, and post a few photos of my work, but now that might be considered self-promoting. I think this forum is not for me, and I will not be back. Sorry it looked so promising too. Any comments you may contact me direct at pilot1022@aol.com

[Bob Hallowell]

Thom,
It is ashame you won't be back this is normally such a great group of people here. These last few days are not the norm.

Bob

[Wendel Aaberg]

For the record:
I do not believe that what Bill Grumbine originally posted in his demo thread was "advertising".
I do not believe that what Mark Duginske originally posted in his bandsaw thread was "advertising".
And I definitely do not believe that what Jim Shaver originally posted in this thread was "advertising".

From what I have seen, it really doesn't matter what you, me or anyone else believes. :(

[Lee DeRaud]

Lots of complaints, observations and directives but not one solution offered that will satisfy the majority here.

Lee, thanks for reporting posts that you didn't think were problems to begin with .
Why ask a question concerning an event you don't think is a problem?
Why not just leave well enough alone?
Are you just stirring the pot?
I also wonder if you are at least partly responsible for some of the problems lately?
Sometimes jokes backfire and people get hurt :(

.If you have noticed me joking about this subject, feel free to quote it. And I really don't appreciate being told that having concerns about how things work around here is "just stirring the pot".

[Gary Whitt]

Perhaps it is time to review the TOS.

Yep.

Or at least the SPIRIT the advertising stuff was put in for: BUSINESSES.

[Robert Pociask]

Uh, no offense, but does anyone really think I am going to hop a jet from here to there to buy a pen just because there is a gallery name in a post?

Really?

Really?

[Matt Wachter]

Okay, I don't post much here, but I do read pretty much everything, although I haven't read anything on the "Grumbine incident". If he left, I'm going to try and find out where his next forum is because I have learned a lot from his posts.

My woodturning club is right here, this site. My closest physical club is 2 hours away, so pretty much everything I learn comes from here.

Maybe I need to go back and read the rules, but I like hearing the entire story of a piece, from where it was fell, to where it currently sits, how much a particular piece is worth, everything. It's how I learn.

I am just getting started in turning, but I would like to maybe someday sell some items. Information like what is here gives me a great starting point on where I am, but more importantly, where I need to go.

I didn't consider your post advertising, at all. Maybe I didn't read between the lines, but I looked at the picture, thought wow, nice pens, nice lizards, it's in a gallery, wish I could see the prices, and read the article.

[Jason Slutsky]

Jim,

I'm glad you posted the picture and would love to see more like it from you and others. Getting displayed in a gallery is a goal of mine also. Seeing pictures like this is inspirational.

I guess the fact that you were contacted by a moderator and your post is still here is symbol enough.

VERY nice work!

Jason

[Patrick Taylor]

I like hearing the entire story of a piece, from where it was fell, to where it currently sits, how much a particular piece is worth, everything. It's how I learn... Information like what is here gives me a great starting point on where I am, but more importantly, where I need to go.... I looked at the picture, thought wow, nice pens, nice lizards, it's in a gallery, wish I could see the prices, and read the article.

Ditto Matt. That pretty much sums it all up. Thanks for adding your input!

[Jon Lanier]

Congrats on meeting a goal that you set for yourself! I really like them pen holder/benches. They have a oriental look to them. Very cool! :cool:

[Bill Wyko]

Looks like one fine group of beautiful pens. Congradulations.

[Martin Braun]

Those are definitely professional quality writing instruments! If I did have a jet to jump in, I would visit the gallery in person ;).

I also want to thank Ken for approaching the modification of this post with respect and politeness. It will probably take some time for this grey area to be sorted out, but as long as we keep the dialogue open, honest and kind I think we'll be okay.

[Martin Shupe]

Those are definitely professional quality writing instruments! If I did have a jet to jump in, I would visit the gallery in person ;).

I also want to thank Ken for approaching the modification of this post with respect and politeness. It will probably take some time for this grey area to be sorted out, but as long as we keep the dialogue open, honest and kind I think we'll be okay.

From one Martin to another, "well said".