Steel City Granite Jointer Fence Rocks

[John Thompson]

I got the "itch" to "Wood-work in 1972 and since then have seen 3 jointers come and go through my shop with the 4th currently in place. I have examined, shopped or used at about every jointer on the market in the past 35 years with few exceptions.

Regardless of the price, quality or manufacturers design they all came up short of 3 significant features in their fences that I would prefer over the majority of what is currently offered. An average of 5000 linear feet of S1 or rough stock passes over my jointer each year as I quite often surface for others. Before stock goes to the planer, I expect a "flat" edge and surface from a jointer or surfacer as known in Euro circles. Life is simple..

The 3 key things I felt that most jointer fences would be benefited by to get better table-fence registration (especially on long stock) are:


(1) Taller Fence.. (2) Longer Fence.. (3) Flat Fence


The thinner nature of fence design has it own set of problems if the cast iron was not stress relieved under extremely tight quality control examination during the long, expensive stress relief process. And if not ground flat from the factory, this becomes a lame horse out of the starting gate.


Consequently... I have never seen a totally flat jointer fence in 35 years on any make or model. There may be one and maybe someone has it, but I have not seen or heard of one to date.


************************


My new Steel City Black Granite jointer fence arrived by "very special courrier" the Wednesday morning after the Steel City unveiling of their Black Granite line at AWFS in Las Vegas the previous week. It sits proudly black and polished on top of my SC 8" jointer.


It sits tall at 5 1/2" and it sits long at 48". It sits "monumentally dead flat"... and I mean Dead Flat! A 6' Starrett machinist straigth edge and a Starrett 12" machinist square insured me of that fact as I checked from every angle known to man before attached it to the jointer itself.


Precision laser cut to within .000,000,001 of an inch with extremely high-grade Chinese black granite I was told. I can't physically see 1 millionth, so.. I will take the Steel City's Tool-guys word for it. I can tell you that the .0001 feeler gauge I brought home from work (YEAR ONE where we restore older "muscle cars" and their engines) couldn't be forced between the fence face and Starrett machinist edge. That's good enough for an old "Georgia boy" as me without further high tech investigation.


So far.. in it's short history, the black granite jointer fence has seen only 150' linear feet of white oak.. 300' linear feet of red oak.. and a little over 1000' linear feet of pecan (hickory family). There's another 1000' of rough pecan to do today.


I did purchase 80' linear feet of birds eye maple to see how the Steel City fence and jointer would handle it's squirrely grain when skewed with HSS knives. The two attachment bolts on the fence of the SC jointer turned will "skew" the fence with ease and the results were good on the bird's eye... very good and better than any I have seen without going to expensive cutter-heads.


In conclussion... the fence was flat the day it arrived. It was flat this morning when I checked it and I expect it to be flat 30 years from now when my son checks it as he is already eyeing the "black monument".


Black granite brittle..? My dad's Georgia granite tombstone is 48 years old and as stable as the day it was planted. Tombstones that are over 200 years old stand monumentally in the same cemetary.


Would I or any machinist build an automotive crank-shaft with black granite and expect it to stand the rigor of that task? Absolutely NOT! But.. then again cast iron WON'T be seen or used in that role either as anyone that knows the properties and characteristices of grey cast iron knows it will break also under the same gruelling conidtions.


Someone suggested hitting the black granite hard with a ball peen hammer. Would they care to slam their cast iron top with a ball peen hammer as if it is some "new ritual" that WW machines "must" be subjected too to prove their worthiness? I suggest those that try that look for a good replacement top before they commit the foolish act.


Cast iron is definitley not "kryptonite" as some believe it to be. Superman knows what I mean and will eat cast iron layered between black granite in a sandwich for lunch. ha.. ha...


From what I have experienced and know about the granite fence and BS-TS tops... things look like they might continue to come up "in the Black" around my shop. This old country boy is on the verge of feeling very comfortable surrounded by all the good things that come from the City..


STEEL CITY to be exact!


Sarge.. john thompson

[Larry Crim]

Thanks for the review john I thought it interesting when they first came up with the idea, glad it works you have the same complaints I have with my fence longer, taller and straighter is a good thing. I might have to look into getting a new jointer wish they would offer it by itself for other jointers.
Larry

[Grant Davis]

John, a very nice review.

I would like to see some information on your router table if that would be possible.

[John Thompson]

Afternoon Larry...

You're quite welcome.. and you're quick as I just opened the thread. :)

"I might have to look into getting a new jointer wish they would offer it by itself for other jointers"... Larry

******************


That was mentioned in a long conversation two weeks ago by Scott Box, VP and co-owner of Steel City Tool-works when he delivered the black granite fence to my shop. Fourteen joiners have already been looked at to see what it would take to retro-fit a fence on them.

But.. I will add that that won't get heavy priority for at least a year as Steel City's priority is still laying their foundation strongly in each state with qualified distributors. Not just retailers.. but qualified machine folks that know more about a machine than the customer who shows up. Finding those distributors is not as easy as one might think.

But.. adding a line of retro-fit fences is definitely a consideration that will be looked into much deeper in the future after the proper founddation has been established, according to Mr. Box.

Trust me.. these guys and gals at SCTW "do listen" to what the customer has to say and their needs. Ten months ago I suggested larger thumb screws on their 18" Band-saw roller guide bearing and replacing the set screw under the table that leads to adjusting the bottom bearing altogether with a thumb screw as it was a PITA to locate and get an allen head wrench on as light is cut off by the table.

I was speaking to Jim Box (Scott Box's brother) when suddenly I was on speaker phone with Scott Box and the their head design engineer. I was asked to "hold". They went to the show-room 18" BS and crawled under their machine to have a peek under the hood at my suggestion.

When they got back on speaker phone.. they said the plant in Taiwan would be notififed to "make the needed change" the following Monday morning. And that indeed did happen as they listenened to what the customer had to say.

I mentioned to Scott Box's two weeks ago about adding a Red Line (as a auto tachometer has) on the new black granite TS top to warn you where not to pull the tip of the miter gauge bar beyond. His response was "that's an excellent idea, why didn't I think of that".

So.. maybe.. just maybe.. the new TS that will come out around late December or January just may have a Red Line on the miter slot to remind you that black granite (and cast iron) will break if extremely heavy weight is riding the miter gauge and you with-draw too far.

It has been tested to stay intact until 2" from the front of the table. The BG miter slot is standard, but a 2" long BG tip has been added for further stability. At that point the bar will bend before the granite slot breaks. But... beyond that point, you flirt with danger!

So... wait and see if the tool guys listened to the customer on that point?

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[John Thompson]

John, a very nice review.

I would like to see some information on your router table if that would be possible.

****************************


Afternoon Grant...

Thanks. I'll try to make this quick as the other 1000" feet of pecan await!

Built around 5 years ago, he router cabinet is a box of ply. The table is laminated MDF with one layer of 3/4" and the other 1/2". That core is sealed with kitchen top laminate. Phenolic insert with a "hoss" Milwaukee 3 1/2 HP above table adjuster on board. Angle iron re-enforce under the top around the insert plate.

The fence is home-made with birch ply also and 3 coat sealed with poly. T blots and knobs ride in cut slots for in and out face adjustment.

After 5 years the table and fence remain flat. Cheap at under $70 with mostly scrap and it gets er done.

That's about all she rode.. any further questions PM is available as I gotta go take care of business in that shop I own and the lovely lady upstairs controls the flow of. ha.. ha... ha..ha. ha...

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Carl Crout]

I got the "itch" to "Wood-work in 1972 and since then have seen 3 jointers come and go through my shop with the 4th currently in place. I have examined, shopped or used at about every jointer on the market in the past 35 years with few exceptions.

Regardless of the price, quality or manufacturers design they all came up short of 3 significant features in their fences that I would prefer over the majority of what is currently offered. An average of 5000 linear feet of S1 or rough stock passes over my jointer each year as I quite often surface for others. Before stock goes to the planer, I expect a "flat" edge and surface from a jointer or surfacer as known in Euro circles. Life is simple..

The 3 key things I felt that most jointer fences would be benefited by to get better table-fence registration (especially on long stock) are:


(1) Taller Fence.. (2) Longer Fence.. (3) Flat Fence


The thinner nature of fence design has it own set of problems if the cast iron was not stress relieved under extremely tight quality control examination during the long, expensive stress relief process. And if not ground flat from the factory, this becomes a lame horse out of the starting gate.


Consequently... I have never seen a totally flat jointer fence in 35 years on any make or model. There may be one and maybe someone has it, but I have not seen or heard of one to date.


************************


My new Steel City Black Granite jointer fence arrived by "very special courrier" the Wednesday morning after the Steel City unveiling of their Black Granite line at AWFS in Las Vegas the previous week. It sits proudly black and polished on top of my SC 8" jointer.


It sits tall at 5 1/2" and it sits long at 48". It sits "monumentally dead flat"... and I mean Dead Flat! A 6' Starrett machinist straigth edge and a Starrett 12" machinist square insured me of that fact as I checked from every angle known to man before attached it to the jointer itself.


Precision laser cut to within .000,000,001 of an inch with extremely high-grade Chinese black granite I was told. I can't physically see 1 millionth, so.. I will take the Steel City's Tool-guys word for it. I can tell you that the .0001 feeler gauge I brought home from work (YEAR ONE where we restore older "muscle cars" and their engines) couldn't be forced between the fence face and Starrett machinist edge. That's good enough for an old "Georgia boy" as me without further high tech investigation.


So far.. in it's short history, the black granite jointer fence has seen only 150' linear feet of white oak.. 300' linear feet of red oak.. and a little over 1000' linear feet of pecan (hickory family). There's another 1000' of rough pecan to do today.


I did purchase 80' linear feet of birds eye maple to see how the Steel City fence and jointer would handle it's squirrely grain when skewed with HSS knives. The two attachment bolts on the fence of the SC jointer turned will "skew" the fence with ease and the results were good on the bird's eye... very good and better than any I have seen without going to expensive cutter-heads.


In conclussion... the fence was flat the day it arrived. It was flat this morning when I checked it and I expect it to be flat 30 years from now when my son checks it as he is already eyeing the "black monument".


Black granite brittle..? My dad's Georgia granite tombstone is 48 years old and as stable as the day it was planted. Tombstones that are over 200 years old stand monumentally in the same cemetary.


Would I or any machinist build an automotive crank-shaft with black granite and expect it to stand the rigor of that task? Absolutely NOT! But.. then again cast iron WON'T be seen or used in that role either as anyone that knows the properties and characteristices of grey cast iron knows it will break also under the same gruelling conidtions.


Someone suggested hitting the black granite hard with a ball peen hammer. Would they care to slam their cast iron top with a ball peen hammer as if it is some "new ritual" that WW machines "must" be subjected too to prove their worthiness? I suggest those that try that look for a good replacement top before they commit the foolish act.


Cast iron is definitley not "kryptonite" as some believe it to be. Superman knows what I mean and will eat cast iron layered between black granite in a sandwich for lunch. ha.. ha...


From what I have experienced and know about the granite fence and BS-TS tops... things look like they might continue to come up "in the Black" around my shop. This old country boy is on the verge of feeling very comfortable surrounded by all the good things that come from the City..


STEEL CITY to be exact!



Sarge.. john thompson


But your dad's tombstone is just sitting there. If I drop something on my cast iron it's probably not going to break AND if it does I can weld it back together and you won't be able to tell that it was broke. What are you going to do? Use JB Weld????
This country boy thinks that Granite is a stupid idea

[Bart Leetch]

But your dad's tombstone is just sitting there. If I drop something on my cast iron it's probably not going to break AND if it does I can weld it back together and you won't be able to tell that it was broke. What are you going to do? Use JB Weld????
This country boy thinks that Granite is a stupid idea


I'm not sure about it either but a little country time will tell.

So I guess you'll just have to hurry up & wait.

[Gary Keedwell]

I think granite has alot of possibilities because of the stress factor. I think granite is more stable then cast iron.
Gary K.

[Michael Schwartz]

Just don't hit the thing with a hammer. I think the idea is great. Every cast iron fence I have seen is so warped and twisted, that it isn't even worth the bother to try to get them anywhere near square.

[John Thompson]

But your dad's tombstone is just sitting there. If I drop something on my cast iron it's probably not going to break AND if it does I can weld it back together and you won't be able to tell that it was broke. What are you going to do? Use JB Weld????
This country boy thinks that Granite is a stupid idea


*********************

Evening Carl...

The first thing I would do is rely on the Ten Year Warranty offered on the top! If the incident occured beyond that point, I would use epoxy which is the same substance used to bind the stainless steel suppport beams inside the 2" thick granite table top. I could really care less what if looks like as long as it's flat.

The top has been through testing and a hard hit with a ball peen hammer will crack it. But.. in 35 years of wood-working, I don't recall ever having an object that would recreate the force of a hard hit with a ball peen hammer hovered over my table top. I don't think anything that I would allow above my tops is going to generate anywhere close to terminal velocity with a foot or so drop.

But.. that's just what I think. We all have thoughts and opinions as too how this will pan out. I will give you a more complete view of what my thoughts are as I dig a deeper foot-hold by testing as I am currently doing now.

You might say that I have become tired over the years of left or right tilt table saw.. which is best? This is something that intriqued me from the moment I found out about it.. and I intend to know more when I've satisfied my own curiousity!

Sarge.. john thompson

[Gary Keedwell]

Just don't hit the thing with a hammer. I think the idea is great. Every cast iron fence I have seen is so warped and twisted, that it isn't even worth the bother to try to get them anywhere near square.
I've had cast iron for my major power tools for over 20 years and don't recall hitting it with a hammer.:)

Gary K.

[Rich Schneider]

I wasn't aware that anyone was making a machine with a granite fence....if this cathes on I know what I'll be doing with all those odds and ends pieces of granite left over from making countertops and islands that we first sit on in hopes of using, then try to sell/auction off, and utlimately end up dumpstering when the warehouse gets too full...... Is this fence being sold as a upgrade over a cast iron fence? I wonder if it is simply a cost thing and the manufacturer is simply using granite that would otherwise be dumpstered?

[Les Spencer]

I worked in the manufacturing industry for 40 years. The only equipment I saw use granite was inspection equipment. Granite replaced cast iron for surface plates long ago. Reasoning being not that it was more stable, it was easier to rework back to tolerance. Granite is lapped. Cast iron is scrapped. Quality cast iron, with proper support, is extremely stable. My bet is Steel City has found it cheaper to manufacturer a granite fence than mess with the cast iron. I certainly wouldn't rush to replace my cast iron fence with granite unless it was proven to be junk. :) Don't forget there are many machine shops capable of regrinding your fence cheaper than a replacement fence. :cool:
If you have one of the early model imports, '80s, more than likely you have junk. I did. Sold it. Love my Delta DJ20.

[Gary Keedwell]

I wasn't aware that anyone was making a machine with a granite fence....if this cathes on I know what I'll be doing with all those odds and ends pieces of granite left over from making countertops and islands that we first sit on in hopes of using, then try to sell/auction off, and utlimately end up dumpstering when the warehouse gets too full...... Is this fence being sold as a upgrade over a cast iron fence? I wonder if it is simply a cost thing and the manufacturer is simply using granite that would otherwise be dumpstered?

I think they have different tolerances for kitchen applications then they do for "surface plate" type applications. I put a precision ground straightedge on my granite countertop and I can tell you for certain that it is NOT flat. Believe me....that was the first thing I did when I read about Steel City's granite top TS. LOL
Gary K.

[Wilbur Pan]

I don't think that this is a cost savings measure. The part of China where the factory that makes Steel City equipment is well known (in China, at least) for granite quarries and working granite. Also, the granite from this area is of very high quality. Not all granite is equal. Most likely this granite is being quarried specifically for this purpose, rather than being remnants from another purpose.

Actually, there's some incredible stonework that is done in China. It's not usually done to Western tastes, so it's not exported out very much, but if you have a Chinese furniture store near you, you'll be able to see some examples.

[John Thompson]

I wasn't aware that anyone was making a machine with a granite fence....if this cathes on I know what I'll be doing with all those odds and ends pieces of granite left over from making countertops and islands that we first sit on in hopes of using, then try to sell/auction off, and utlimately end up dumpstering when the warehouse gets too full...... Is this fence being sold as a upgrade over a cast iron fence? I wonder if it is simply a cost thing and the manufacturer is simply using granite that would otherwise be dumpstered?

Evening Rich..

The fence will be standard equipment on the Steel City 8" jointer being released around January of 2008. As stated.. after-market fences are just a thought for the future as that is not a priority at this time.

But the fence is only the surface if you haven't kept up with current affairs. A Band-saw and Table saw will have a black granite top also with a riving knife on the TS, which constituted changing arbor design from tilt to vertical.

And these aren't being made with left over scraps as I have excess to here in Georgia. I believe the standard top you use for counters is 3 mil which is 1 1/2" thick and 2 mil at 1" thick. The table tops are 2" thick and re-enforced with stainless bars epoxied inside the high grade chinese black granite. The the top is laser cut to within one millionth of an inch flat.

Granite as cast iron is not cheap in quality form.. but it readily available and easy to laser cut in lieu of a long stress relieving process that has various results in grade even under close quality control scrutiny. Depending on how evenly the carbon particles got dis-appated in a particular batch.. you could end up with anything from "good.. bad.. or ugly in that same crock-pot.

Just curious... how many instances are you aware of where you broke or chipped 2 mil black granite before.. during or know of after installation?

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Nancy Laird]

I wasn't aware that anyone was making a machine with a granite fence....if this cathes on I know what I'll be doing with all those odds and ends pieces of granite left over from making countertops and islands that we first sit on in hopes of using, then try to sell/auction off, and utlimately end up dumpstering when the warehouse gets too full...... Is this fence being sold as a upgrade over a cast iron fence? I wonder if it is simply a cost thing and the manufacturer is simply using granite that would otherwise be dumpstered?

Rich, the SCTW granite tops for cabinet saw and band saw, and fence for jointer, were introduced at the AWFS 3 weeks ago. They are a new item for SCTW and are causing quite a stir. Lots of people are complaining that now they won't be able to drill and tap for jigs, etc. Opinions are all over the map by people who haven't seen them, from "not just no, but heck no" to "gimme me one NOW." Here's the skinny, per Scott Box (VP of USA and co-owner of the company):

SCTW purchased a quarry in China and is quarrying all of their own granite for these tops/fences. They have a geologist on their staff who checks out all of the granite and passes or fails each slab to be used on the machines. The machines are also being made in China, at a factory nearby which SCTW built and owns; they are NOT being built in the one-size-fits-all factories like Jet/PM/Grizzly/Delta, etc. This is NOT a cost thing for them; this is a new and very innovative idea for a perfectly stable, perfectly flat, non-rusting table/fence. As of right now, the jointers can not be retrofitted for the older jointers (if they could, we'd have one right now!!), but that is being discussed and considered. The granite tops/fences are an upgrade on the machines and may cost a little more. However, the stability of the material, the ability to get and keep it perfectly flat, the lack of rust, and the sheer weight of the tops is worth the extra $$$ that they might cost.

I don't think your throw-away granite would be a viable candidate for this application. For starters, the tops are a full 2" thick; I doubt if your throw-away granite is that thick. These are not pieces that have been welded/glued/laminated, or otherwise cobbled together; each top or fence is one piece of granite. The weight of the tops adds stability to the entire machine. The fences won't warp or twist because of the stability of the granite.

I could go on and on, but I won't. Give SCTW the benefit of coming up with a new and innovative idea, and give it some time. Time will tell whether this is good or bad.

Nancy (131 days)

(P.S., I am NOT affiliated with SCTW, I just love their machines, their tools, and their people. We have two of their machines and couldn't be happier.)

[Alan Tolchinsky]

But your dad's tombstone is just sitting there. If I drop something on my cast iron it's probably not going to break AND if it does I can weld it back together and you won't be able to tell that it was broke. What are you going to do? Use JB Weld????
This country boy thinks that Granite is a stupid idea

Cast iron is very brittle. During my move the move lost control of my table saw, it tipped over and a chunck of the cast iron wing broke off. I never knew it was that brittle. Just the right force on cast iron and it will break. The granite idea sounds very promising to me.

[Mike Heidrick]

Could someone add a granite face to an existing CI fence for a jointer? Benefits of both ideas. And I bet you could use the "scrap" pieces for that. If the jointer fence idea catches on I bet we see add-on retro fit pieces.

[Gary Keedwell]

Could someone add a granite face to an existing CI fence for a jointer? Benefits of both ideas. And I bet you could use the "scrap" pieces for that. If the jointer fence idea catches on I bet we see add-on retro fit pieces.
"Scraps" will not be within the tolerance required for true precision. Alot of people don't pay enough attention to jointer fences IMNSHO:)

Gary K.

[Ken Belisle]

[LEFT]Precision laser cut to within .000,000,001 of an inch with extremely high-grade Chinese black granite I was told. I can't physically see 1 millionth, so.. I will take the Steel City's Tool-guys word for it.



The Number you wrote is 1/100th of 1/1,000,000th......which I find very hard to believe. Sounds like "salesman" talk to me, especially for a product made in China. Back when I was a machine tool designer, tools used to make jet engine parts were accurate to +/- .0002........which means that Steel City is making wood working tools one hunderd thousand times more accurate.

A quick web search showed approximately 90% of "Precision" laser cutting was +/- .002" with only one site stating +/- .0002 accuracy.

What was a bigger shock is that your fence isn't even listed on the Steel City site, yet. I was hoping to see what they advertise it's accuracy as.

Glad you like it and hope you get many years of service from it.........

[Jack Ganssle]

I guess they'll have to rename the company now: Rock City Tool Works. ;)

[Wilbur Pan]

The Number you wrote is 1/100th of 1/1,000,000th......which I find very hard to believe. Sounds like "salesman" talk to me, especially for a product made in China.
The report on the Popular Woodworking website (http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Exclusive+Steel+City+Will+Rock+Your+World.aspx) quoted a flatness of 0.001-0.002". Granite can be made flat up to .000025". For an area that has a lot of stoneworking experience, 0.001" would be a chip shot.

Also, don't be so quick to disparage the quality of Chinese made products. Quality can be had in Chinese manufacturing, if you're willing to pay for it. The thing is, people want to pay only $300 for a jointer, and then wonder why the quality isn't up to snuff. You could make a $300 jointer in the U.S. and it would be just as bad. You could also make a top quality jointer in China, and it would cost close to a similar jointer made in the U.S.

[John Thompson]

The Number you wrote is 1/100th of 1/1,000,000th......which I find very hard to believe. Sounds like "salesman" talk to me, especially for a product made in China. Back when I was a machine tool designer, tools used to make jet engine parts were accurate to +/- .0002........which means that Steel City is making wood working tools one hunderd thousand times more accurate.

A quick web search showed approximately 90% of "Precision" laser cutting was +/- .002" with only one site stating +/- .0002 accuracy.

What was a bigger shock is that your fence isn't even listed on the Steel City site, yet. I was hoping to see what they advertise it's accuracy as.

Glad you like it and hope you get many years of service from it.........

Morning Ken...

Let me apoligize for the mis-quote on "my" part stating the the tops and fences would be laser cuts within millionths (millionths regardless of my bad math) as per my conversation with Scott Box in my shop. A lot was discussed as I had many questions.. and I tried to keep his quotes as accurate as they were being given to me.

I wanted to clarify and I did just that as I just got off the phone with Scott Box (VP and co-owner of SCTW). He was told by the Chinese engineers that with laser cutting and re-lapping that it could be ground down to within millionths if necessy. He was told!

But the tops and fence are being laser cut and relapped to "surface plate" standards and are closer to the .001 tolerance you mentioned. I ask if he would state an advertised tolerance when the new product is ready for market. He laughed and told me "NO". When I ask him why.. he stated "for the same reason you're asking now.. someone will question whatever tolerance that would be printed... and it is a non issue with WW machines surfaces already lapped to "surface plate" tolerances.

And I agree.. as you and I know having been around automobile engines.. etc. that the naked eye can't see millionths and that you can't squeeze a knats *ss between a machinist edge and a surface at .001. I put in a quick call to the machinist at the restoration shop at my work (Year One) and my BIL who is a shop foreman in the machine shop at Delta Air Lines and they both concurred. My BIL told me that some of the computer programs using lasers is pretty amazing compared to what I was familar with from the past.

So... All!.. accept my apology for the mis-quote on "my" part. As I stated, this was a rapid fire conversation that lasted for the duration of time it took Scott Box and I to install the granite fence on my existing jointer in my shop. I tried to keep it as "to the word" as possible without the use of notes as we had our hands full of black granite. But I do stand corrected as his final answer to what will be advertised was simply... "Flat... dead flat"!

BTW.. the fence or new tops won't be on the web-site till they are ready to take the New to market. The fence on my Steel City jointer is "one" of "three" proto-types that currently exist and it had to be returned from Las Vegas by truck before it was brought and given to me for testing in my shop.

But... I did re-check it this morning before this post. How flat did I find it?


Flat.. dead flat... and no rust either! :D


Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Mike Cutler]

John.

I like the idea of the granite surface. Having a dead flat reference surface would be of benefit in any shop.
I'm not sure I buy into the worries about the longevity of the surfaces. I'm certain they can be damaged, but anything can be damaged. My shop is in an unheated/ portion of my garage. During certain times in Jan/Feb there is measurable distortion in the top of my TS, but it's flat again as soon as it warms up. Granite would be less susceptible to temp changes I would hope.
Granite surfaces and tops have been in use in the food service industry for decades, specifically candy makers. I used to watch the guy make fudge and pour all the stuff onto a granite surface and roll it out. So it can take some amount of abuse. A ball peen hammer might be a bit much though.;)

I'll have to check into the tablesaw when it comes out. I have the Steel City 25" Drum Sander,and have been quite happy with it.

One question, How much does the thickness of the granite take away from the amount of blade height that can be exposed ?

Thanks for the review and post.

[Wilbur Pan]

I guess they'll have to rename the company now: Rock City Tool Works. ;)

Where Fred and Barney outfit their shop. ;)

[John Thompson]

John.

I like the idea of the granite surface. Having a dead flat reference surface would be of benefit in any shop.
I'm not sure I buy into the worries about the longevity of the surfaces. I'm certain they can be damaged, but anything can be damaged. My shop is in an unheated/ portion of my garage. During certain times in Jan/Feb there is measurable distortion in the top of my TS, but it's flat again as soon as it warms up. Granite would be less susceptible to temp changes I would hope.
Granite surfaces and tops have been in use in the food service industry for decades, specifically candy makers. I used to watch the guy make fudge and pour all the stuff onto a granite surface and roll it out. So it can take some amount of abuse. A ball peen hammer might be a bit much though.;)

I'll have to check into the tablesaw when it comes out. I have the Steel City 25" Drum Sander,and have been quite happy with it.

One question, How much does the thickness of the granite take away from the amount of blade height that can be exposed ?

Thanks for the review and post.

Afternoon Mike..

How much does the thickness take away...... It doesn't, Mike. They angled and excauvated the area that the blade tilts.. rises and falls to compensate and then re-enforced that area. Steel City gave this a lot of thought in advance and did a lot of testing for abuse to see if the idea would even be worthy of consideration.

Interestingly enough.. the idea was suggested to Scott Box by a Chinese engineer while having a few beers after a business meeting at the plant. They all laughed and passed it off as a stupid idea until the engineer went to the near-by quarry and brought a piece of black granite back to the plant. After he played with it a few days it was presented and We are discussing it now.

Once upon a time.. the majority thought that the suggestion that the world was possibly Round was a very stupid idea. But.. someone questioned the fact he would fall off the world if he ventured too far out to sea. A man took the gamble and we now have a round globe.

The same could be said of the Wright Bros. and their stupid idea they entertained of the possibility of a machine flying. I personally have a desire to pursue the idea to find truth instead of just basing my opinion on assumtion.

Regards as I have an appointment with Year One, Inc. :)

Sarge.. john thompson
















.

[Carl Crout]

I beieve that Delta use to spec their cast iron to .015 so a granite one at even .001 would be really flat compared to that.

[Charles Jackson III]

Nice gloat!

[John Shuk]

Originally posted by Wilbur Pan:
Also, don't be so quick to disparage the quality of Chinese made products. Quality can be had in Chinese manufacturing, if you're willing to pay for it. The thing is, people want to pay only $300 for a jointer, and then wonder why the quality isn't up to snuff. You could make a $300 jointer in the U.S. and it would be just as bad. You could also make a top quality jointer in China, and it would cost close to a similar jointer made in the U.S.[/QUOTE]

I agree that quality can be had in Chinese product. Junk can be made in the US as well. Just look at Buck Brothers saws and chisels in their current incarnation. However, if pricing on quality is similar to that in the US then why are they being shipped around the globe?

[Curt Harms]

I agree that quality can be had in Chinese product. Junk can be made in the US as well. Just look at Buck Brothers saws and chisels in their current incarnation. However, if pricing on quality is similar to that in the US then why are they being shipped around the globe?[/quote]

Nobody wants a "dirty" foundry or machine shop in their "back yard"?

[Nate Folco]

John, are you being compensated by
Steel City? The fence may be outstanding, but this thread seems less like a review and more like a sales pitch. There's nothing wrong with touting a new product, but if it's not an independent review I'd like that kind of information up front.

[John Thompson]

John, are you being compensated by
Steel City? The fence may be outstanding, but this thread seems less like a review and more like a sales pitch. There's nothing wrong with touting a new product, but if it's not an independent review I'd like that kind of information up front.

Afternoon Nate...

I don't get paid a penny for touting the Steel City line. I am just as impressed with the Steel City line of machines as Nancy in Rio Ranche seems to be. I have purchased two of their machines and crawled under the hood of all of them.

I would have gotten a free T Shirt at the last Atlanta WW Show, but they didn't have my size. It seems that even though their design team doesn't miss much, they failed in realizing that everyone around 60 years old does not necessarily derive at X-XX-XXX sizes. I weight the same as the day I got home from Rangers in Vietnam, much to my wife's delight! ha.. ha...

And yes.. I have gotten to know the SC group at shows and their visits to their local distributor here in Atlanta (W J Redmond & Son). They are indeed tool guys as they claim and I appreciate that after the offering I have had available over the last 35 years. I see innovation in thier design and the fact they understand what the customer (me and you) seem to be looking for.

When I was handed the fence by Scott Box.. he was made well aware of the fact I would report the good.. bad and ugly as I have done on several reviews over at KNOTS where I am a regular poster. I don't think a man confident in his line that offers a 5 Year Warranty and offers a 10 Year Warranty on the new granite left my shop with his knees shaking in fear of that statement.

As a matter of fact, he left with a smile on his face. As I have reported on another forum... You don't have to high pitch their product, all you have to do is examine and compare it as the their tools speak more highly for themselves than I ever could.

So.. have a look and don't take my word for it. The Steel City tools do a fantastic job of speaking for themselves!

If you wish to contact me at where I do get paid.. Call 1-800-YEARONE and x 113 between 2 PM-10PM EST. Ask for Sarge as nobody there would know who John Thompson is unless you are in pay-roll or management. And that's a fact.

But.. I do expect a T-shirt... someday! ha.. ha...

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson x113 800-YEARONE www.yearone.com (http://www.yearone.com)

[Robert Mayer]

The granite is a great idea imo. Im overly cautious with my cast iron tops so i dont warp them so I really dont think granite is going to be a problem for me.

I use my table saw for cutting, etc. Not for stacking lumber on.

[Kyle Kraft]

Yup, granite "rocks";)

[Mike Monroe]

I'm not saying granite isn't flatter than cast iron, but really, will it make that big of a difference in the final product? This is wood we're talking about, the hard maple top on my coffee table expands and contracts a good 3/16's over the course of a year.

Me thinks it be all marketing... everybody get in line for some "new and improved" granite.

Remember, sellers are after the green $$, they're not making stuff and selling it because they are you're friends. The all mighty yuan rules (or will rule in 20 years or so, if not sooner).

Just my take, FWIW.

[John Thompson]

"Me thinks it be all marketing... everybody get in line for some "new and improved" granite.

Remember, sellers are after the green $$, they're not making stuff and selling it because they are you're friends. The all mighty yuan rules (or will rule in 20 years or so, if not sooner").

Just my take, FWIW.[/quote].... mike m


***************************

Morning Mike...

I personally doubt that anyone is going to spend the night before the release of black granite in line for some "new and improved" granite as many people will for expensive "rock concert" tickets performed by some kids with baggy jeans hanging below the crack of their ash!

Quite the contrary as I see it. All SC is doing is presenting a new product to the market with a riving knife on-board. It's up to the informed individual to decide if he wants it or not. It's their choice!

People that purchase expensive WW tools are not your basic hip hop generation that fall for any gimmick taken to market! They are for the most part educated to very well educated people that raise families and are pillars of the community. They are extremely capable of making a decision of what is best for them and theirs, IMO.

But.. I do agree SC is in business to sell things. I am in the business of selling things also in my line of work which is "muscle car" parts. But.. that doesn't mean I can't bring the most quality product to market as is possible an offer it at a fair price.. backed by customer service after the sale that is inferior to none.

I can only fool a customer once and get away with it. I won't hear from him again nor his friends that were alerted by word of mouth.. inter-net chat sites.. etc. I want his repeat business and his friends business becasue I want to be in business for more than "one shot" at what he has to spend!

So...how do I stay in business? I make every customer feel he is the most important customer I have ever dealt with and at the moment I am dealing with them.. they are that indeed regardless of the amount they purchase! And if he calls back with a problem.. I fix it and fix I it now! The customer is my friend and without friends.. I don't see much future in my business.

If you want respect and repeat business.. you have to earn it daiily. You can't ride the reputation you built yesterday! What you did well yesterday, you aim for better today and tomorrow.

Steel City is offering their new TS with riving knife with a black granite top. They are also offering the same TS with riving knife at $50 less with cast iron top for those that are not over-whelmed with black granite.

You have several choices.. black granite.. cast iron.. or get one from the competitor if you feel his product is superior after looking under the hood of the competitor and comparisons are made.

IMO.. life is simple unless you complicate it!

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson
Year One, Inc. Time Tested..

[John Thompson]

"Me thinks it be all marketing... everybody get in line for some "new and improved" granite.

Remember, sellers are after the green $$, they're not making stuff and selling it because they are you're friends. The all mighty yuan rules (or will rule in 20 years or so, if not sooner").

Just my take, FWIW.[/quote].... mike m


***************************

Morning Mike...


I personally doubt that anyone is going to spend the night before the release of black granite in line for some "new and improved" granite as many people will for expensive "rock concert" tickets performed by some kids with baggy jeans hanging below the crack of their ash!


Quite the contrary as I see it. All SC is doing is presenting a new product to the market with a riving knife on-board. It's up to the informed individual to decide if he wants it or not. It's their choice!


People that purchase expensive WW tools are not your basic hip hop generation that fall for any gimmick taken to market! They are for the most part educated to very well educated people that raise families and are pillars of the community. They are extremely capable of making a decision of what is best for them and theirs, IMO.


But.. I do agree SC is in business to sell things. I am in the business of selling things also in my line of work which is "muscle car" parts. But.. that doesn't mean I can't bring the most quality product to market as is possible an offer it at a fair price.. backed by customer service after the sale that is inferior to none.


I can only fool a customer once and get away with it. I won't hear from him again nor his friends that were alerted by word of mouth.. inter-net chat sites.. etc. I want his repeat business and his friends business becasue I want to be in business for more than "one shot" at what he has to spend!


So...how do I stay in business? I make every customer feel he is the most important customer I have ever dealt with and at the moment I am dealing with them.. they are that indeed regardless of the amount they purchase! And if he calls back with a problem.. I fix it and fix I it now! The customer is my friend and without friends.. I don't see much future in my business.


If you want respect and repeat business.. you have to earn it daiily. You can't ride the reputation you built yesterday! What you did well yesterday, you aim for better today and tomorrow.


Steel City is offering their new TS with riving knife with a black granite top. They are also offering the same TS with riving knife at $50 less with cast iron top for those that are not over-whelmed with black granite.


You have several choices.. black granite.. cast iron.. or get one from the competitor if you feel his product is superior after looking under the hood of the competitor and comparisons are made.


IMO.. life is simple unless you complicate it!


Regards...


Sarge.. john thompson
Year One, Inc. Time Tested..

[Mike Monroe]

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

Perhaps my "let's all get in line" was interpreted too literally. Marketing is marketing, the target audience is, well, the target audience. Hip-hop dogs or account VP's, doesn't matter... sellers want at the $$ in your pocket, marketing does the job.

Customer service is just a facet of marketing. Good customer service makes good business sense and that's pretty simple (unless of course you're the only show in town, then you can do pretty much what you want).

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it is what is.

As for the granite fence; IMO, for the average joe woodworker a granite fence is a curiosity.

-Mike

[Gary Keedwell]

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

Perhaps my "let's all get in line" was interpreted too literally. Marketing is marketing, the target audience is, well, the target audience. Hip-hop dogs or account VP's, doesn't matter... sellers want at the $$ in your pocket, marketing does the job.

Customer service is just a facet of marketing. Good customer service makes good business sense and that's pretty simple (unless of course you're the only show in town, then you can do pretty much what you want).

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it is what is.

As for the granite fence; IMO, for the average joe woodworker a granite fence is a curiosity.

-Mike
There have been many innovations through the years that were a curiosity and never "took off". The automobile and the Internet come to mind as innovations that were ridiculed when first introduced.;) There are tons of things we use every day that were viewed skeptically when they first came out.
I still remember my brothers' reaction when I told them that I got my LOML an Answering machine for Christmas back in the early 80's. By the next Xmas...everybody had one. :D
Gary K.

[Nancy Laird]

How about the guy who said that he could not see the idea of every Tom, Dick, and Harry having a computer--that the application of computers was a fad!!

Maybe the nay-sayers will be wrong about granite tops, too!

Nancy
(127 days)

[Alan Schaffter]

Durability and flatness are nice, but to what extent flatness? Show me a piece of wood or woodworking project that needs that kind of precision- its wood after all. The artisans of old didn't have it (I've seen a Shaker tablesaw with a rough wood top and fence) and they made some fantastic stuff. Sure it is nice to have a jointer fence that is not warped, but surface flatness to .000XXXX is not necessary in my mind. If SCTW can make granite fences and table tops at least as flat and durable as current cast iron ones at reasonable prices, then I guess why not. It will take quite awhile to see there is a real benefit.

[Nancy Laird]

How about the guy who said that he could not see the idea of every Tom, Dick, and Harry having a computer--that the application of computers was a fad!! Nancy (127 days)

Found the direct quote:

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." --Ken Olson, president, chairman, and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.

Mr. Olson was wrong, obviously. So was Margaret Thatcher in 1974 when she said "It will be years--not in my time--before a woman will become Prime Minister."

Don't ever say never.

[John Thompson]

Durability and flatness are nice, but to what extent flatness? Show me a piece of wood or woodworking project that needs that kind of precision- its wood after all. The artisans of old didn't have it (I've seen a Shaker tablesaw with a rough wood top and fence) and they made some fantastic stuff. Sure it is nice to have a jointer fence that is not warped, but surface flatness to .000XXXX is not necessary in my mind. If SCTW can make granite fences and table tops at least as flat and durable as current cast iron ones at reasonable prices, then I guess why not. It will take quite awhile to see there is a real benefit.

Morning Alan...

And of course you're right. I personally feel you are seeing the granite go to market for several reasons.

(1) Cast iron is expensive and even with careful quality control measures, you have no gaurantee of a stress free final project. Stress + Warp.. Plus it is a lenghty process. Quality black granite is readily availabe in the region of China the plant is in. It can be quarried.. milled and lapped to precision quicky and with assurance that the end result will be almost perfect. The extra weight will also dampen vibration which is a plus.

(2) Mike is correct about marketing. SC had some un-warranted bad press with it's 18" BS. A known reviewer for a large Mag wrote an article titled SC BS has FLAWS. The flaws he stated was a table that was Not Flat by .018. :eek: EEEK.. horrible as recieved by the general WW population and word spread quickly over the web sites as not FLAT.. don't purchase!

That could have been a death blow to a new company struggling to get a solid foot planted in a very competitive market. And when all was uncovered.. it turned out to be pure un-adultrated BS and that aint Band Saw!

And the author of the review was challenged by a poster (PB) and myself as he made a comment that tipped us off that he knew little about BS's. He wrote that he measured the table with the Pin Out. All BS tables are ground flat with the Pin In and all will spread with the Pin Out. All.... you measure with Pin In.. no ifs.. and... or butts.

The other big flaw was that it did not re-saw well as the bracket for the guide post was not straight. I had been over every 18" BS made at the IWF in Atlanta and had already purchased the SC 18". It in my opinion is the best BS from the Pacific Rim and if you have a look at my reviews over on KNOTS you will know why I feel that way. And I compared extensively.

But.. as it turns out, the reviewer took the BS off the crate and did his test. He could have taken the time to adjust the BS as all BS's have to have. That BS is probably the most micro adjustable on the market and that includes the Itallion Stallions which are quality but have minor boo-boo's also.

When questioned why he didn't adjust or call SC for a replacement guide post (it was not bent but just needed adjusting as it turned out), the answer was he had a deadline. His deadline prompted a review that was titled "SC 18" BS has some FLAWS" with flaws in capital letters.

The mag printed a written apology letter a month latter...

So.. even as you and I know that dead flat is not a requisite... the general WW public is under the impression it is because written reviews say so and that's where a degree of marketing comes into play. If they demand Flat.. make em Flat.. ;)

The above are my own thoughts and do not reflect anything I have mentioned with SC personally. Just guesses on my part but it is very obvious that a spade is a spade.

I learned WW from a uncle that built houses all his life. He did it with tools that were stored in two wooden tool-boxs. One was about 4" long and the other about 3'. He never did own a power tool the day he died.. but his houses still stand.

The world has changed.. if the public demands flat for whatever reason, it is best to deliver flat as the market is fierce as Mike stated. Trust me, these are tool guys and they know tools. Their product goes well beyond flat. All you have to do is have a look and it becomes obvious, IMO! But you do have to look for yourself and not just take the "written word" as being the "holy grail" "just cause"....

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Chris Friesen]

He wrote that he measured the table with the Pin Out. All BS tables are ground flat with the Pin In and all will spread with the Pin Out. All.... you measure with Pin In.. no ifs.. and... or butts.

...It in my opinion is the best BS from the Pacific Rim....

To start, I own the 18" SC bandsaw. I had to get the table replaced because the original one was far enough out of alignment at the split (with the pin in) that a miter guide would hit the back half of the table and stop. It was also far from flat.

They also had to send me a new fence, as the one it shipped with was dished noticeably, enough that running a piece of wood along it resulted in a slight banana shape. The new one is better, but will require some grinding down to make the front casting the same width as the steel stamping.

I do agree that it's likely the best saw from the Pac Rim (I did buy it after all) but it doesn't come close to comparing to an Italian one. I compared it to an Agazanni (spelling?) and it's just night and day. The Italian table was dead flat with or without the pin, and was substantially thicker and heavier. There was NO play in the top wheel. It was a thing of beauty. Of course, it also cost almost twice as much...

[Tom Cowie]

I gotta say that fence looks so cool !!!!!!!!!!

Tom

[John Thompson]

To start, I own the 18" SC bandsaw. I had to get the table replaced because the original one was far enough out of alignment at the split (with the pin in) that a miter guide would hit the back half of the table and stop. It was also far from flat.

They also had to send me a new fence, as the one it shipped with was dished noticeably, enough that running a piece of wood along it resulted in a slight banana shape. The new one is better, but will require some grinding down to make the front casting the same width as the steel stamping.

I do agree that it's likely the best saw from the Pac Rim (I did buy it after all) but it doesn't come close to comparing to an Italian one. I compared it to an Agazanni (spelling?) and it's just night and day. The Italian table was dead flat with or without the pin, and was substantially thicker and heavier. There was NO play in the top wheel. It was a thing of beauty. Of course, it also cost almost twice as much...

Afternoon Chris...

Ha.. ha... The "Aggi" should indeed cost twice as much as you get a lot more thickness on cast iron tables.. wheels.. etc. etc. which resist stress warp more efficiently. I almost pulled the trigger on one from Redmond and Son and did have a deposit on a MM 16 when I discovered the SC 18' at the International Wood Fair in Atlanta last fall in the SC debut of it's machine line.

But.. even though I do a ton of re-saw I couldn't really justify that much. If I was a turner and did bowls.. I would have dropped the cash for one to get the extra re-saw height. But my SC came off the crate with fence flat and table also ( Greg at Redmond and Son Machinery was nice enough to open and let me check it before I purchased). And it gets it done admirably with the 3/4" Wood-slicer on board.

Trying to compare a SC 18" to an Aggazani is like trying to compare and 18" Aggazani to a 36" Tannewitz which weighs in at over 2000 pounds. I found a Tannewitz at auction in Arkansas as a closing of a small furniture factory made it available. It went for $1400 which I didn't attempt to out-bid as I had no way of transporting 2000 lbs. back to Georgia and not enough room to drop the monster on my shop floor if I did. I would have loved too, but over-kill is over-kill! :)

I noticed over on the MM thread that someone had to return a table for replace as it was way out of flat also. I do think that most are under the impression that the Itallion Stallions are without any flaw. That is not true of any of them. Try dropping a 1/4" blade on one without having to change to smaller guides and you will understand.

The new black granite fence on the Band-saw should eliminate the problem you had. As I have stated.. there is no guarantee of flat with thinner cast iron as on Pacific Rim tables and fences even with strict quality control in the stress relief process (ala MM table replacement and his is not the first I have heard of).

But.. our saw has strong double springs with very heavily re-enforced upper arm and column back-bone to support those springs. Re-enforce motor and bearking hub housings and micro adjustable to the max backed by a 5 Year Warranty.

Would I trade even for an Aggazani Rapid 460 18".. you betcha! Would I pay the $1500 difference and purchase it out-right. I believe I already answered that question above. ;)

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Jude Herr]

I mentioned your review to the Steel City rep who was in our store here in Lakewood, CO and he knew exactly who 'Sarge' was and the review I was talking about.
Can i have your permission to reprint your article in our Tool Review section of toologics.com? I could link back to your article/and website as well.

[Carl Crout]

I mentioned your review to the Steel City rep who was in our store here in Lakewood, CO and he knew exactly who 'Sarge' was and the review I was talking about.
Can i have your permission to reprint your article in our Tool Review section of toologics.com? I could link back to your article/and website as well.

If they know him then he must have got the jointer for free or at a discount so that he would write his "glorious review".
It figures...........:(

[John Thompson]

I mentioned your review to the Steel City rep who was in our store here in Lakewood, CO and he knew exactly who 'Sarge' was and the review I was talking about.
Can i have your permission to reprint your article in our Tool Review section of toologics.com? I could link back to your article/and website as well.

Afternoon Jude...

That would be OK if it is OK with the administrators here.. Please check with them first as I don't want to stir up the pot. I also did a review of a Yorkcraft 20" planer at FWW KNOTS and a Penn State Tempest S cyclone.

Just comsumer reviews as I have access to about all tools here in Atlanta and the larger shows. If the articles can be informative.. knock yourself out with permission of the administrtors.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Randy Klein]

If they know him then he must have got the jointer for free or at a discount so that he would write his "glorious review".
It figures...........:(
Wow, you nailed it :rolleyes:, because they couldn't be any other possible explanation.

[John Thompson]

If they know him then he must have got the jointer for free or at a discount so that he would write his "glorious review".
It figures...........:(

Carl..

Could it be possible that many people know me from posting on KNOTS (FWW) for 5 years? Could that be possilbe at all, Carl? Could it be possible that I attend a large portions of WW shows as I love WW machinery? Could it, Carl?

I paid full price for my SC Jointer with a rebate for everyone that was purchasing at the time. You want a copy of the reciept Carl? I suppose I got my Yorkcraft 20" planer and Penn State Cyclone at discounts or free also as I did a review of them also. You want copies of those reciepts also, Carl?

May I suggest you call my CPA who is Rex Milsapp and also the mayor of Lawrenceville, Ga. (E-mail for phone #) Ask if I reported any income from Steel City, Bridgewood or Penn State last year. If you are going to continue your "witch hunt", you might as well get to the core of things before you hold kangaroo court, Carl.

Now... I have to get to work at the company that does employ me and offer discounts. Please continue to search.. search.. search till you find the skeleton in the closet you seem to be seeking, Carl. If you need assistance, e-mail or call at 1-800-YEARONE x113. I'll be delighted to accomodate ya!

Have a good day Carl...

Sarge..

[Jude Herr]

I appreciate your straightforwardness ;0):D

[John Thompson]

I appreciate your straightforwardness ;0):D

Morning Jude..

You're quite welcome sir.. Any way I could be of assistance, e-mail or call. With any kind of crack im what amounts to quite a tight schedule, I am thinking of doing a review on a DW 788 scroll saw soon. But.. then again, many have already been done and it probably would be some-what of re-hash of ground already covered.

BTW.. I don't do lathes. I admire those guys that do and their work.. but I don't do lathes! Well.. not yet anyway as retirement looms about 2 years down the road and maybe some extra time will creep in the picture.

Regards...

Sarge..