My Point of View

[Bill Grumbine]

There is a debate going on right now with me and one of my posts as the focus. I am posting here separately to speak my piece on a few things. Read quickly in case this one vaporizes too.

First, I am a man of strong opinions. Anyone who knows me at all knows that. In fact, I have a short supply of tact and diplomacy sometimes. I write this because I have been censured by moderators on just about every forum I have ever been on for one reason or another. I have spoken out where I should have remained silent on things like religion, politics, social issues, etc. I have had posts deleted, and even been publicly criticized by the owner of a forum. I am a big boy and I can take it.

What I won't take is secret censure. I have read the gabble about how people don't have time to contact every single person if a post needs to be deleted or edited. You know what I have to say about that?

Make time.

I don't think that the moderators need to contact spammers or people with post counts of ONE to explain their actions. But members in good standing, members who contribute many hours of time as well as money to keep a place running deserve a little more than summary deletion when something happens that is construed to be against the rules. I do not speak for myself asking for special consideration, I speak for anyone who is a regular participant on this forum.

I've been on this forum since Day One, and I have been very careful to avoid the appearance of advertising. I cannot escape it completely, since this is my profession, and I have made a name for myself in the teaching dept. But I am not going to put in time somewhere if I have to tiptoe around wondering if I am going to be subject to Star Chamber type proceedings. There are plenty of other places where I can promote turning and not be spanked anonymously for some imagined transgression. According to the TOS, I cannot post about any of those places, but anyone with any ability at all should be able to find them. ;)

Have a nice day.

[John Terefenko]

Bill

If you feel that bad here don't go to the Wood forum for they are even worse there now with their new so called format that is stupid. Don't know the story behind this but hope things work out.

[Andy Livingston]

I always look forward to Bill's posts. He is an extremely talented instructor (have the tapes) and turner. With that in mind, I would think keeping members like him informed when they cross the line on posts would be prudent. This is a great site, and one of the things that makes it great is the experience and expertise of some of the members. Those of us who are relatively inexperienced have a lot to learn from these guys.
I hope this little spat gets resolved. All he seems to be asking is for an explanation. I know it would take too much time to respond to everyone who gets something deleted or edited, but when a contributor asks a specific question an answer should be provided.
Just my $0.02

[Jason Roehl]

Threads locked with an explanation serve as an example and instruction to many as to the application of the Terms of Service (TOS) here. Threads moved without explanation to ANYONE only embolden those who find a conspiracy in every shadow.

Perhaps there could be a "Probationary Forum"--one where questionable threads get moved while moderators decide (if there is not a clear-cut violation) its fate. This forum could be open for viewing by all members, but not posting. Then maybe if 2 or 3 moderators agree it should be withdrawn it could be, or if 2 or 3 agree it should be placed back in circulation it could be (with warnings), but the decision time (presumably a day or two) could serve as a "cooling off" period.

[Gary Garmar]

Well, I for one will miss Bill's imput to this forum. At least by implication Bill is finished with this forum. That's a real shame; shame on administrators for letting this esculate to this point. Could have, and should have been handled in a more friendly manner. Sorry Bill for all the Bovine byproduct.

[Leo Pashea]

I agree 110% with what Mr. Grumbine posted above. The fact of the matter is I contacted a moderator concerning the removal of the post in question. This moderator was kind enough to take the time to respond to me, review that post with another moderator and restore it, as these moderators saw nothing in violation that warranted the censure. Obviously, the moderator that removed the post originally has no regard as to the opinion of fellow moderators. If the moderator that moved the post to begin with would have had the common courtesy to notify Mr. Grumbine, as the moderator that I contacted did, this could have been avoided. The problem is the rules here are not enforced in an equitable manner. There is no excuse for rude behavior toward any member here, no matter the title placed under your name. Mr. Hoyt........you were wrong, and Mr. Outten was wrong to support his decision. I know I am not alone in those feelings.

[Carol Reed]

First, I consider Bill to be a friend.

Second, I, too, am published in the woodworking world and have made a name for myself in teaching woodworking.

Third, frankly, it is easier and less time consuming to NOT respond in the area of my notoriety than get into a lose-lose encounter with moderators/forum owners. After all, many of us make our living in this area. We don't need to be maligned nor have our time wasted.

Result: loss of expertise to viewers at large, exposing them largely to inexperienced opinion, thus diluting the quality of information available. And there is a huge difference between opinion/little experience and professional experience. Often it is translated directly into dollars saved, especially for those new to the hobby. 20-20 hindsight, you know.

This might be harsh, but it has become my practice, and last I noticed, the practice of most published (and highly experienced) people who no longer actively participate on this or other forums.

My 2 cents, offered only to help clarify Bill's (and my) position, not that he needs any help from me! Please accept it as kindly offered or ignore it. :)

[Tom Collins]

Isn't it amazing how the "family" always seems to eat its own first. Great way to promote this great hobby/business to newcomers.

Tom

[Steven Triggs]

This is pretty ironic really. Anytime the actions of the moderators gets questioned, they bring up the "great members we've lost" due to argumentative or rude posts, and reminded us that they are protecting the community. So now, the roles are reversed, and we've lost Bill due to that "protection."

I asked not long ago in another thread, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=61926, if this crap wasn't going too far. Most people said "No, it is how we want it." And I got pretty berated for having the audacity to ask.

Well now Bill is gone. Really, is this how we want it?

Lovely...:mad:

[Kurt Whitley]

What I won't take is secret censure. I have read the gabble about how people don't have time to contact every single person if a post needs to be deleted or edited. You know what I have to say about that?

Make time.

I don't think that the moderators need to contact spammers or people with post counts of ONE to explain their actions. But members in good standing, members who contribute many hours of time as well as money to keep a place running deserve a little more than summary deletion when something happens that is construed to be against the rules. I do not speak for myself asking for special consideration, I speak for anyone who is a regular participant on this forum.

Well said Bill.

I regret that your other post is no longer available to review in light of its new status as being offensive.

As I recall, two moderators did not understand why it had been removed (one of them moved it back on the presumption it was removed by accident). Obviously, your post must represent a "shade of gray", so why not use it as an opportunity to better define the rules!?

Cheers,
Kurt

[Neal Addy]

Obviously, your post must represent a "shade of gray", so why not use it as an opportunity to better define the rules!?
Agreed. I usually try to stay out of any political skirmishes here but this one seems so unnecessary. To lose a valuable member because of an unintentional violation of an already vague rule is unacceptable.

I've been in question of this same rule. I recently put a website up and was hesitant to post a notice here due to my uncertainty over whether it would violate the TOS because it could ostensibly be used for sales of my work. The concept of "indirection promotional notices" really needs to be clarified.

We have a lot of folks here that demo and/or sell products over the web. If a Grumbine, Tibbetts, Stinson, or any fellow Creeker is going to demo in my area I would like to know about it. After all, that's what these forums are all about... to share information.

It seems to me that the common sense solution to this "gray area" would be to provide a forum specifically for demo notifications, websites, and other indirect promotional info. The TOS should allow for these types of notices in the proper forum.

[Tom Keen]

Im new to this forum and therefore I may not have much credibility. However, I have been an admin, moderator, and co-founder of another large internet based forum/list serve/service and think I have some credibility.

We/I have found that the pros that use our service have a difficult time not being who and what they are. We give them alot of slack, primarily because they have the kind of technical information our general membership wants. Blatant advertising is out of line, but as long as their posts serve the general membership and are not completely self serving, we allow it. And, we have found that the pros, once they figure out their place, respect the "intent" of the rules.

Regarding, admins.. their's is a thankless job. Bless em.

That said... I welcome the imput of any professional on this forum. If they mention their business, occaisionally say, "contact me offline and I can help you", or throw out a well mannered plug for themselves that is informational and not just promotional, its ok with me.

I hope you stay! I certainly need you input. But, if you move on I hope you find a format that serves you well.

Tom

[Martin Braun]

To be honest, I'm really confused now. I can't read the thread to figure out what exactly the issue was, but if the issue was Bill mentioning he was going to demo for a local woodturners association, then does that mean that regional and national symposia shouldn't be mentioned here? Most local woodturners associations are 501(c) non-profit status. Additionally, I don't think what Bill receives is dependent on the number of people that show up (maybe I'm wrong). I would hope that we can continue to post the details of these events. If Bill or Malcolm (or any other demonstrator pro or not), were in my area I would be happy to see a "heads up" in the forum.

[Benjamin Dahl]

Bill, I hope you do continue to post here since I have found you offer a wealth of information. I think Andy and the rest of the moderators do a very good job and hope that this can be resolved in a positive way. Sometimes it is difficult to say that a mistake was made, but apologies can go a long way in resolving a situation and can be done in private if that is preferred.
Ben

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bill I for one hope you will continue to post here. I would hate to see a talent such as yours leave. To me that is a waste. I do not see a thing wrong with giving a heads up on a turning demo no matter if it is by the pro himself or somebody else. We don't get many demo's out this way and when they do I surely appreciate a heads up because most of the time I have to travel and make plans to attend. I have read about every post Bill has made including his DVD's because I value his knowledge and opinion. He has given me a lot of info through e-mails. I for one would hate to see him and his expertise go. Just my $1.298.

[Jim DeLaney]

Like Bill, I've been here since Day One. Like Bill. I've been a consistent monetary contributor.

Unlike Bill, I'm not an expert, or a teacher, in any one field, but I do try to offer advice, and reply to threads when I can, or where it interests me.

Bill and I have been 'electronic friends' for many years - even though I'm a flat worker, not a turner.

All that said --- Bill goes; I'm going too.

So long. It was largely fun before it became intolerable.

[Dale Bright]

I read Bill's original post that is in question, both the first time it was up and again when is was put back on the forum. I now see it has been removed a second time. I did not think is was advertising but I am very new here and I am not an expert on the TOS. I have also read his post about the demo on 2 other forums and it has not been removed from them. I hope Mr. Grumbine continues with this forum and that there is simply some misunderstanding about the intent of his origianl post. If a member posts about a local craft fair that he or she is doing and includes the location and time is that construed as advertising or is it simply posted for informational purposes so that other members in the area can stop by? I took Bill's post to be an FYI for members in that area not a solicitation.

I rarely post here but I read and learn from this forum daily and I am concerned about the potential loss of such a wealth of knowledge as Mr. Grumbine. Would one of the moderators please give an explanation about the post removal and why some mods say it is OK and someone else in power thinks it is in violation?

Sincerely,

Dale Bright

[Chris Barton]

I've been watching this thread (and related threads) with interest. My own take is this is a case of jealousy, I would say professional jealousy but, Bill is the only professional involved...

You have my support Bill!

[Bart Leetch]

I used to come here all the time now I come here occasionally & it use to be my home page. I have watched this forum grow & have seen some valuable people abused now I will come here even less if at all.

PS Oh & I vote with my check book too.

Bart may not be here anymore it largely depends on the moderation.

[Barry Stratton]

I respect Bill and I respect Andy. I don't want to see anyone leave over a disagreement........



........well, except folks who post the following type of stuff. Only response I can think of violates all known TOS's. No need for this type of post AT ALL.


I've been watching this thread (and related threads) with interest. My own take is this is a case of jealousy, I would say professional jealousy but, Bill is the only professional involved...

You have my support Bill!

[Dale Bright]

I just read the Sticky about this issue and I now have a better understanding about why Bill's post was removed. I understand but I do not agree with the mod that removed it but I do agree with the members that mentioned the "letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law". I appreciate that the moderators have a thankless and difficult job but still a little common sense, understanding and compassion is needed no matter how difficult the task.

I pose this question to those of you that think that all posts need to pass all aspects the TOS perfectly. Do you ever drive 36mph in a 35mph speed zone and if so how do you sleep at night?

I do not intend to offend anyone or berate anyone with this post, I am simply trying to make a point in general that a position of leadership sometimes requires a little creative judgement.

I understand that this is a privately owned forum and that the owner can make and enforce the rules but it seems that if a vast majority of the members find a post to be appropriate then perhaps someone should be a little more understanding.

Dale Bright

[Bruce Page]

I have never met Bill Grumbine but I have the utmost respect for the man. I have been an admirer of his talent and his prose long before SMC was born.

This whole situation has been handled horribly, and is just flat wrong!

Rules are not all black and white!

[Keith Outten]

Mr Grumbine has had his say and I have responded in another thread. My decision to support the decision made by one of our Moderators is based on our TOS which states;

I. General Terms

It is our policy to support the free flow of information in a manner
best befitting the woodworking community at large. SawMill Creek is an online community where woodworkers may come together to share and discuss a common interest. SawMill Creek reserves the right to refuse or delete any Content of which it becomes aware and reasonably deems not to fulfill it's established purpose. In addition, SawMill Creek shall have the right (but not the obligation) in its sole discretion to edit, refuse or delete any Content that it reasonably considers to violate these Terms without notice. You understand and agree that the service is provided "AS-IS" and that SawMill Creek assumes no responsibility for the timeliness, deletion, mis-delivery or failure to store any user communications.

Bill clearly violated our TOS. We have shown him professional courtesy in the past and we have been flexible allowing him to make commercial announcements. This time we made a different call, we chose to enforce the rules which is well within our rights.

There are those who will consider you friendly when you do them a favor and unprofessional when you refuse.

Our Staff will make mistakes every now and then, our mistakes are not intentional and we are not perfect. To date we have reviewed 632,953 posts since February 11th, 2003...an excellent track record even if we made a few mistakes along the way. We removed a thread then restored it then removed it again after some of us were able to discuss the issue. Our part of this event caused some concern but our error wasn't monumental and we don't deserve the harsh criticism we have received.

:(

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