Poll on laser tubes

[rick woodward]

I have been researching lasers for quite a while. I would like to know from those of you that have replaced your tubes. What brand of tube, what wattage,length of time before replacement, price, why it needed replacement, ( electronics or gas) and machine brand. You could add any comments if you want. If you would be so kind as to send to my email , i will keep names confidential. This way you can fully express your thoughts. If you want, you can express your views of your dealer/distributor/tech support. I might put up numbers so that the poll numbers can be used in new purchase decisions will be more enlightened. I think this will benefit all, including manufacturers, dealers and tech support. Please, this is for owners only. I know of some tech guys on here that i think are very good help for instance, I also have opinions on some manufacturers. As far as i've seen, some dealers and their tech support do not post on here. So i have no idea how things are with them. And i will post results in a condensed numbers version. Maybe 3 columns for positive, neutral and negative experience. If you would be so kind as to send me your experiences, I would greatly appreciate it. The more who participate, the better "picture" we will have. Thank you kindly. rick

[Rodne Gold]

Hiya rick , it's a great notion but i dont think it will work in reality
Its secret if its e-mailed and you have only indicated you might put up numbers?? We wanna see the results and comments as they come in etc
You are not going to get a big enough sample here to make any meaningful assumptions.
Manufacturers and dealers all have very good records and have a much bigger sample than we will possibly get here , so their analysis would be better or far more accurate.
One would have to split sources up into manufacturer , power , series , date of mnfgr and so on which would have to be factored in to the analysis , further diluting findings.
So in essence , whatever info you get here is highly unlikely to be at all accurate
Rick , I think your best defence against tube issues is to get the machine with the longest tube warrantee
Those of us that have had machines for some time can tell you this - that the purchase decision should almost always be based on support and warrantee

[rick woodward]

Hi Rodne
I know you have tons of experience and i value your opinions and thoughts. Later in writing my post ( thinking about it ) i said i would put up numbers. I didnt want a public flame war against any brand. Or hot words as seen here before. Yes i agree the longest warranty on a tube/machine is best. But what if all have a 2 year warranty and some owners are having consistant issues/problems/failures? I like to hear things from the end user , unfiltered and straight up. An owner isnt trying to sell me something.... How many lasers have you had with tubes giving you 20,000 hours of use ? I have other equipment and software, If i was on a public forum frustrated with equipment/software or tech support How friendly would my tech or dealers be with further issues or dealings? I was attempting to recieve Un restrained straight talk, not "secret" . I requested emails to protect the owners unrestrained comments. And to protect the dealers and tech support. So there would be no ill will , Just the pro's AND the con's. I am focused on a certain machine and tube manufacturer. But i would like other opinions across the spectrum. I do not rely on a manufacturers/dealer/salesmans "analysis". I thought/think this would be good research before laying out a huge chunk of money. Ever had major regrets ? I cant afford them. I want a machine and tube that just keeps working. Excellent tech support and warranty is paramount, but i dont want to Need it. :) thanks Rodne

My email is rcarves@hotmail.com

[Dave Jones]

The 20,000, 30,000, or 50,000 hour figures thrown around have very little to do with how long a tube is going to last in your laser engraver.

Those numbers are put out by tube manufacturers, not the engraver manufacturers. They represent the number of hours typical on a tube running continuously in a laboratory environment at full power with controlled cooling. They represent the number of hours typical before the tube needs to have the gas recharged.

You can't use those numbers as any kind of basis on how long a tube will last in an engraver. First, it's not a laboratory environment. Second, it's not on at full power constantly. Third, those are typical, not guaranteed numbers.

My understanding is that a lot of tube failures in engravers are the RF power electronics, not the tube losing gas charge. Not that it makes any difference to us as users. If the tube is down, the tube is down.

But the idea that you can keep an accurate track of hours it's been on and use that as any real indication of when your tube is going to fail, I feel is silly. How long it lasts is going to be based on a lot of factors, and not just hours. Some people are using their machines heavily and getting 2 or 3 years. Others have had theirs running for 6 years. Some others blow their tube after a year.

What power settings you use, whether you do cutting or raster more, even whether you do solid raster shapes or halftones, what is the average temperature and humidity in your shop, how clean or stable is your AC, etc.... There are far too many factors that come into play to get anything useful out of a small sample of data that just shows brand and hours used.

If I go and talk to a random group of 20 people about what car they bought and what problems they had, you think that's going to accurately represent the percentage of problems the big auto companies have? If you believe that then you don't understand how statistics work. You need to ask 20,000 people to do that. Or maybe 100,000. A small number of experiences could be completely off from the large figures. The same is true with lasers.

[Kim Vellore]

The laser is ON at full power at any time that it is on, it is pulse width modulated. If you ask for 10% power it is ON for 10% of the time in its time period (1/Frequency). The car analogy is not comparable. There are not too many laser users so the number of folks here even though small could be a significant number. Regarding polls and statistics, you will be surprised that more the # of people polled does not make it more accurate. I dont want to get into the details of that but you can google it and find out. The bottom line is you can get very accurate data just from polling a hand full of diverse folks. On the other hand if there are so many complaints from so few members about the tubes that itself shows there is something not right here. If you are buying a laser, the manufacturer puts out this large number about tube life as a sales pitch then better hold him responsible for infant mortality. Going back to the car analogy if you buy a car that the manufacturer promises 30 MPG and you get 5 MPG, do you replace the engine every few years....? Actually engines are cheaper than the laser tubes....

The electronics dont fail so often if they are operated within the limits of its specification, which includes powerline noise, spikes, temperature, humidity, cooling... which it is designed for.

I would like to get 20000 hours of tube operation from my laser tube so the laser manufacturer should be able to tell me in what conditions that I should operate to get that life if their machine is not robust enough to handle my operation in my garage. If they cannot do that dont make it a OEM part that I cannot go to the tube manufacturer and take up my frustration with them.

There are a no equipments to my knowledge that one would use that has such an unpredictable expensive consumable. This topic would not be so hot if the manufacturer puts up the real data to the users so I could make my decision accordingly.

Kim

[Mike Hood]

There is a lifespan on CO2 gases used in lasers. They are much like fluorescent bulbs in that sense. Putting aside all the unknowns like operational environment and mistreatments, I suspect performance between one brand and another would be similar.

The quantity of gas, operating loads and the likes will affect the gas life. In example... two lasers, one 75 W and one 25W will differ in physical design. The size of the gas ballast will be larger on the 75, therefore would operate longer in general than the smaller 25 could under the same loads. Short of optics damage or back-wash of reflected energy, I can't see what one machine would have over another.

It's like trying to say Chevys last longer than Fords.

[Bill Cunningham]

It's like trying to say Chevys last longer than Fords.

They do!!! Or at least 'mine' always did.. As far as I'm concerened, Ford OWES me a car :mad::D

[rick woodward]

HA HA ! Bill !
Your right ! For quite a while i used to change out motors for people on the side . Everywhere i went to buy used motors I had a real hard time finding Ford motors. And everyone of the salvage yards had semi loads of chevy motors. So began asking why that was. Even though i knew the answer, i wanted to hear it from their point of view. To the last one, they told me a Ford motor will last for 60,000 miles. After that , they need replaced. Way back, Ford was an early adopter of "planned Obsolesence", make things to only last a targeted amount of time. More cars sold, more money made....The appliance industry quickly jumped on the bandwagon.

[Mike Null]

When you say "appliance industry" if you're including household appliances like stoves and refrigerators I believe I can provide facts that are just the opposite.

[rick woodward]

Hiya Mike
Sure , I'm always interested in facts, the true story as it were. Before you do though. In my own experience, I have to replace my gas stove every 5 to 7 years at the most. Bout the same with my refrigerator and window air conditioners. In contrast, when i was a young pup. I had refrigerators 40 years old , several times. Moved and sold or gave away and later got another about the same vintage. Mom had one she bought new , lasted her 35 years. I used to work on and repair appliances. Washing machines have recently been "improved" Maytag in particular. I'm hoping Whirlpool/kenmores are still built the same way. I got mine used from a woman with 7 seven kids , used daily for around 10 years. I've had it 15 years, still doing fine.

[Joe Pelonio]

Our latest gas stove is 8 years old and no problems at all. The fridge is 13 with no problems, not even the ice maker has broken yet. The washer and dryer are both 8 and so far just a new heat element on the dryer last year.
The freezer is 18 and never had a problem though the bottom gasket is loose now.

Most of that time there were 5 of us using them.

The furnace is 25 with new burners and a new thermocoupler about 5 years ago.

Oh, and the water heater is 25, and yes, I know I'd better replace it before it goes all at once, but it's still hanging in there. I'm also knocking on wood.

Back to the laser, on the 3rd tube after 3 years.

[rick woodward]

Hi Joe
3rd tube in 3 years ! I'm guessing epilog has a 2 yr warranty ? I hope you dont have to buy a new tube a year to stay in business. This is the real world experience i'm talking about. What brand of tube ? And thanks for sharing your experience.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm guessing epilog has a 2 yr warranty ?

Nope, 1 year unless you buy an extended warranty.

[Mike Null]

Rick

Having retired from the appliance industry and in a position where warranty costs and service rates were an important element of my responsibilty, I can offer this. Average life of a refrigerator is 15+ years, same for a freezer, gas ranges 14 years and electric ranges 18 years. Water related appliances (dw and washers) average 7 to 8 years.

Being a former serviceman you know that most failures occur in the first 90 days of ownership, well within the warranty period.

We neverdiscussed such a thing as planned obsolesence. Our goal, and frankly, that of our competitors as well, was to build the best we could build. We could have built better but probably not more reliable had competitive pricing not been so critical.

Remember that a $900 refrigerator requiring service in the warranty period is backed by a warranty that provides in home service--unlike a $25,000 laser which has a shorter warranty where you have to do the service yourself.

Sears takes quite a bashing on this forum but with respect to their appliance program their quality standards guided the entire industry. When I retired Sears commanded a 38% market share. We built appliances in all categories for Sears including all their freezers and about half their air conditioners.

[Craig Hogarth]

Nope, 1 year unless you buy an extended warranty.


I got a mailer from them stating they're doing two years for a limited time. I threw it away. so I don't remember all the details.

[Scott Shepherd]

I got a mailer from them stating they're doing two years for a limited time. I threw it away. so I don't remember all the details.

I got that as well, I seem to recall is just saying that you could purchase the warranty. Seemed like just a pitch for buying an extended warranty on a postcard. It's certainly worth buying in my opinion.

[rick woodward]

Rick

Having retired from the appliance industry and in a position where warranty costs and service rates were an important element of my responsibilty, I can offer this. Average life of a refrigerator is 15+ years, same for a freezer, gas ranges 14 years and electric ranges 18 years. Water related appliances (dw and washers) average 7 to 8 years.

Being a former serviceman you know that most failures occur in the first 90 days of ownership, well within the warranty period.

We neverdiscussed such a thing as planned obsolesence. Our goal, and frankly, that of our competitors as well, was to build the best we could build. We could have built better but probably not more reliable had competitive pricing not been so critical.

Remember that a $900 refrigerator requiring service in the warranty period is backed by a warranty that provides in home service--unlike a $25,000 laser which has a shorter warranty where you have to do the service yourself.

Sears takes quite a bashing on this forum but with respect to their appliance program their quality standards guided the entire industry. When I retired Sears commanded a 38% market share. We built appliances in all categories for Sears including all their freezers and about half their air conditioners.


Hi Mike
last thing first, LOL ! Sears gets a bashing here ? Didnt know that. I worked on and used to rebuild maytag washers for resale. Til they started building transmissions out of nylon and plastic instead of cast iron and aluminum. Then i went to kenmore/whirlpool . Like i said 25 years and still tickin. This THOROUGHLY pleased my uncle who worked for whirlpool in california to NO end ! DRAT ! And he is/was a FORD man ! He restored early thunderbirds. Personally i been through 2 gas stoves and two refrigerators in 10 years. When i was doing appliance repair , warranty work was increasingly sought as additional income. But the vast majority of repair work was done just after warranty expiration to 6 and 7 years old. Otherwise there wouldnt be repairmen. No one can survive on warranty work alone. Pay is slow in coming and low besides. But this is from the field, your experience may well vary... LOL ! In your position in the industry , You may well have seen most failures under warranty in the first ninety days. I would agree. But i've seen alot of customers upset right after warranty expiration and up to a couple years. "They dont build them like they used to" was heard more and more often til i quit doing it. Its a fact that things are being built cheaper and cheaper to remain competitive. The customer buys cheap and gets what he pays for.
Thanks for the input from the white collar side, mike. All i know is real world experience.
now, back to lasers. :)

[Joe Pelonio]

Hi Joe
3rd tube in 3 years ! I'm guessing epilog has a 2 yr warranty ? I hope you dont have to buy a new tube a year to stay in business. This is the real world experience i'm talking about. What brand of tube ? And thanks for sharing your experience.
Actually my laser came with one year bumper-to-bumper and two years tube warranty. I did have to pay for the third one, by the time I thought about adding the extended warranty I was a month too late to get it.

[Mike Hood]

So plan in for a recharged tube. I don't think you'll see huge differences between tube brands. MTBF is a variable number, but design is constant and if they're filled properly, used under the same conditions, the gas will last a pretty consistent timeframe.

[Brian Robison]

Hmm, why were the junk yards full of Chevy's again?
Bill ,what year was this Ford that you had troubles with?

[Bill Cunningham]

Hmm, why were the junk yards full of Chevy's again?
Bill ,what year was this Ford that you had troubles with?
All through the 70's I would buy a new ford every two years (The cars would last for two, the payments for three) they would literally ROT in two years to the point the were un roadworthy (road salt).. My last Ford had great big paint flakes falling off, with bare metal below before it started to rot.. Bought GM products for the next 20 years got an average of 250k on each and they were still running when I traded them in.. I now drive a Hyundia, my second one.. Had over 200 k on the last one, and have 186k on this one.. Neither have cost me anything other than general maintanence stuff. Shocks/brakes/etc..
FORD = FOUND ON ROAD DEAD
or FIX OR REPAIR DAILY

[Mike Null]

My experience was the reverse with respect to Ford and GM. It's been 28years since I last bought a GM car.