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Dave Jurek
08-08-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm getting close to completing a red oak dining room table project. This is my first real project and have no idea how to handle staining.

Any recommendations on how and what to us for staining red oak? I would like the color to be darker than the golden oak stain.

Also, I read something about a sealing the pores. Is that necessary?

Dave

Kim Spence
08-09-2007, 12:16 AM
Hi Dave

There are as many ways to finish red oak as there are woodworkers, but here are a few things to think about.

1. Grain/Pore Filling - This is not required, but sure makes for a much nicer finish if you do it. Its not necessary to fill the entire table, rather just the top surface. There are a few different products on the market to do this, the one that comes to mind is Bartly's pore filler, its available in a few different colors at Rockler. Fairly easy to use, but you have to move quickly because it sets up fairly fast.

2. Coloring part one - a simple oil based stain is perfectly acceptable, and is very forgiving on red oak as it absorbs the color evenly. Oil based stains by Minwax, General Finishes, Old Masters, and others will all give great results and are available in many, many colors.

3. Coloring part two - there are a number of ways to add/change the color of the base wood, staining is just one of them. Don't rule out dyes, glazes, and toners. It really all depends on the style of the furniture and the finish you're after. I'm currently finishing some mission style coffee & end tables made of quarter sawn red oak and my finishing schedule is as follows

a. Sand to 180, raise the grain with water and de-whisker
b. Dye with Transtint dye Mahogany Brown
c. Wipe on light coat of dewaxed shellac (1.5 lb cut)
d. Glaze with General Finishes Walnut get stain
e. Topcoat...haven't got this far yet but believe I'll spray with satin pre-catalyzed lacquer.

Combining color on color with different layers of dyes, stains, glazes, and tonors will add tremendous depth to the finish.

4. Highly recommend that you pick up a copy of Bob Flexner's book "Understanding Wood Finishing", this book will explain what dyes, stains, glazes, and toners all are and how/when to use them.

Hope this helps!
Kim

Steve Milito
08-09-2007, 7:56 AM
Can you shellac over an oil based stain such as minwax?

Kim Spence
08-09-2007, 11:16 AM
Can you shellac over an oil based stain such as minwax?
Absolutely you can apply shellac over oil based stain.

If you'll then be applying a different topcoat over the shellac, be sure to used de-waxed shellac to ensure proper adhesion. Also doesn't hurt to scuff sand with some 320 before topcoating, just be sure not to sand through the shellac.

De-waxed shellac is sort of a universal sealer/barrier that can be used over and under most types of finish. When used as a sealer/barrier, no need for a heavy coat, a single coat of wiped or brushed on light cut (1 to 2 lb cut) will suffice.

Professional refinishers will often use a coat of de-waxed shellac to seal in any surface contaminants (i.e. silicone from Pledge or similar products) as part of their refinishing process.

glenn bradley
08-09-2007, 11:25 AM
I too was after something leaning more towards brown and away from the typical golden oak look. This is red oak; BLO, two coats of stain, de-waxed shellac and paste wax final coat.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45905&d=1156975572

Matt Meiser
08-09-2007, 11:33 AM
I'd hesitate to use shellac as a final finish on a dining room table. I used it on a small play table I refinished for my daughter. Spilled water from drinks and water paints have pretty much destroyed the finish.

Dining tables are probably among the most abused project you could make. Heat from hot dishes, moisture, and abraision are all problems. Ours is Amish-made so it probably has a pre-cat laquer finish since that seems to be their topcoat of choice. It is holding up pretty well--a few scratches but nothing major. Most of the scratches are probably from the rough feet on pottery bowls and my wife's Pampered Chef stoneware.

Dave Jurek
08-09-2007, 8:20 PM
So Matt, what do you recommend on this type of project?

Dave

Matt Meiser
08-09-2007, 9:10 PM
Hey, I was just saying what I wouldn't use :D

There are a lot of people more knowledgeable than I am on finishing. However, I'd think lacquer would be one of the best since it is easily repairable down the road but still pretty durable. Poly is very durable, but more difficult to repair. I've use Minwax wipe-on poly on many of my projects including end tables and a coffee table and its holding up well there. The coffee table takes a lot of abuse since my daughter likes to play games and color at it. Lacquer would need to be sprayed. The wipe on poly is VERY easy to apply. I just use a good quality paper towel (Scotts Rags in a Box) folded into a wiper, pour some of the finish in a dish, dip the rag, and wipe it on. No need to rub it or anything like that.

Steve Schoene
08-09-2007, 9:44 PM
A good way to finish red oak is to use a dye to get the overall color tone set to what you want.

Then, you have to decide whether to fill the pores or not. If you decide to fill the pores seal the dye with one coat of Zinsser Seal Coat shellac. Filled pores give a elegant formal look, and should be used under film finishes. Pore filler should be tinted and can be used to create special effects by tinting it either lighter or darker than the base color. Oak, particularly red oak, has very large pores so they are fairly hard to fill, but oak can look very good filled. Unfilled pores, with a film finish tends to look "cheap" or "low end".

If you decide not to fill the pores, you can get a richer finish by applying the Seal Coat and then applying a coat of a pigmented stain. The stain will mostly lodge in the pores either emphasizing them, or de-emphasizing them depending on the color you choose.

For a top coat I would recommend a good wipe on varnish. Waterlox Original/Sealer makes a very nice mellow gloss finish. Or, you can take a regular strength varnish, such as Behlen Rockhard, Pratt & Lambert 38 or McCloskey Heirloom and thin it down to wipe on consistency. These can be used over either filled, or unfilled pores.

For a casual look, an oil/varnish mix, such as Watco can be used. These have some particular challenges with red oak since the pores in red oak are very deep, running about the full lenght of the board. So for the first coat or two apply the oil/varnish pretty lightly, just fully wetting the surface, not flooding it on as the directions may call for. Wipe off any excess after a few minutes. Check the wood about every 15 minutes for the first several hours since with oak the finish can seep out of the pores making a puddle around the pores. If you don't wipe this off while it is still wet you will have to sand and re-finish. The idea of light coats to begin with is to just get enough oil/varnish in the pores to begin to seal them up, but not so much as to create a reservoir that seeps back out.

And there is one very basic, VERY IMPORTANT rule. Do all your testing on scrap before you begin to apply anything to the project itself. Apply the full finish sequence you have in mind from start to completion to work out any glitches before hand. It's a whole lot more fun to ask questions like, "my test board didn't do what I expected, how do I make it better", than to ask "I think I ruined my project, how do I fix it."

Steve Milito
08-09-2007, 10:45 PM
A good way to finish red oak is to use a dye to get the overall color tone set to what you want.

Then, you have to decide whether to fill the pores or not. If you decide to fill the pores seal the dye with one coat of Zinsser Seal Coat shellac. Filled pores give a elegant formal look, and should be used under film finishes. Pore filler should be tinted and can be used to create special effects by tinting it either lighter or darker than the base color. Oak, particularly red oak, has very large pores so they are fairly hard to fill, but oak can look very good filled. Unfilled pores, with a film finish tends to look "cheap" or "low end".

"
How do you fill the grain?

Steve Schoene
08-10-2007, 7:39 AM
Pores are best filled with a commercial pore filler. I prefer oil based since they give more working time. Behlen's Pore O Pac is one, Bartley Paste Wood Filler is another. They can be tinted with artist's oil paint, powdered pigment, or Japan colors. Waterbased pore filler can be used, but it sets up quickly and you are almost certain to have to sand off excess, though the waterbased does sand more easily than oil based and can be overcoated more quickly.

After lightly sealing in the dye with a wash coat one coat of diluted Seal Coat, you apply a full coat of the pore filler with something like a chip brush. Pore filler comes quite thick and most people like to thin it to about the consistency of heavy cream using naptha or mineral spirits. When the pore filler starts to "haze over" then you scrape off excess, working across the grain to avoid pulling the filler out of the pores. A plastic scraper or even a credit card works well, finishing the removal from the surface with a coarse cloth--burlap is the traditional choice. The final removal should be done with a soft cloth worked with the grain so no cross grain streaks remain.

Don't bite off too large an area at one time. You can work small areas without worrying about "overlap". If it completely sets up before you can wipe off the excess you may have to sand--a very messy process that clogs sandpaper almost instantly. Before sanding try re-wetting with thinner to see if that allows you to continue to wipe off the excess.

With oak it will probably require two coats. Wait several days between coats, and then wait a week before applying any top coat. Manufacturer's suggested drying times often seem too optimistic to me with these products. They are likely assuming something like 77° and 40 - 50% relative humidity.

Mike Null
08-10-2007, 8:35 AM
About 10 years ago I built a large red oak table for the kitchen. I used Min-wax oil stain and Minwax poly. It looks good, is used 3 times a day and still doesn't need refinishing.

I like the oil stain for oak because it can be manipulated.

I used about 6 coats of wipe on poly for the chairs. It's also holding up well.

Matt Meiser
08-10-2007, 8:37 AM
Last night I was reading the most recent issue of Fine Woodworking and someone wrote in with the same question. They answered pre-cat lacquer if you can spray it or a poly if you can't.