How do you sharpen the Elsworth grind?

[Bill Wyko]

I have the Pro PM by Crown with the Elsworth grind. I also have a hi speed grinder as well as a wet sharpener. I have the Tormek jig as well as a wolverine for the hi speed grinder. When I try to get proper geometry it'll be ok at the tip but as I roll it over it comes away from the stone. I haven't actually sharpened the tool yet for fear of changing the angle and screwing up a 100 dollar tool. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong?

[Jeff Farris]

3 inch protrusion from the front of your TORMEK jig. Adjust the knuckle past setting 5 to the point where #6 would be (if there were a 6). Match the bevel angle at the middle of the gouge to the grindstone. That will get you right on -- however, if you buy different "Ellsworth" gouges from different sources -- and sometimes even from the same manufacturer, the profile is never exactly the same.

[Bill Wyko]

Thanks, I'll try this tonight. Anyone ever do it on the wolverine?

[George Morris]

David makes a sharping jig that works very well for his tool . highly suggest it. George

[Harvey M. Taylor]

Hi Jeff, happy Tormek user here. I also cut a spacer board 2 and 3 sixteenth in. and use as a spacer between the universal jig support and the grinding wheel That gives me an almost dead on 60 degree grind at the point of the tool.that is the degree most ellsworth grind tools are set at.I get excellent results that way. Max

[Bill Wyko]

David makes a sharping jig that works very well for his tool . highly suggest it. George
Do you happen to have a picture of this?:)

[Jim Becker]

The best way to truly get the Ellsworth grind is with the Ellsworth jig. You can't exactly duplicate it with the Vari-Grind; I don't know about the Tormek as I don't own one. I believe I recently posted pictures of the Ellsworth setup as well as my Wolverine stuff...may even been in one of your threads.

[Tony De Masi]

Bill, I have the same gauge but use the Tormek instead of the Jet.

I do as Jeff has suggested, and he should know, and is in the Tormek book as well. Dead on the center with only marginal changes on the wings.

Tony

[Bill Wyko]

The best way to truly get the Ellsworth grind is with the Ellsworth jig. You can't exactly duplicate it with the Vari-Grind; I don't know about the Tormek as I don't own one. I believe I recently posted pictures of the Ellsworth setup as well as my Wolverine stuff...may even been in one of your threads.
Jim, Isn't your setup built off of a wolverine jig? I just happened to pick up the wolverine in that bunch of stuff I got a couple weeks ago. The tool with that gring is great. I'll look up those pics. Thanks.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, I do use the Wolverine for support but in those pictures I posted, you'll see two different adaptations for holding the Ellsworth jig at the correct pivot point...you can't use the v-arm alone as the pivot point will be too low in relation to the centerpoint of the wheel. My original adaptation was a block that I could screw into the vee-arm...just some scrap mahogany. My current setup is a replacement arm from a 3rd party that was designed specifically for the Ellsworth jig and is adjustable for height as well as accompanied by a welded gage that sets the distance from the wheel surface.

Oh, and I use a regular, ordinary 3600 rpm grinder with Norton 3x wheels (60 grit & 100 grit) and the OneWay balancing setup. Smooth as silk and FAST with just a light touch necessary to bring back the edge quickly.

[Frank Kobilsek]

Bill

I'm not going to be around until Monday so I think its safe to drop this blasphemy on you, the firestorm will be over before I get back. Elsworth, Fingernail bowl grind, Irish grind, and players to be named later ... ALL THE SAME!

I was taught to worry about the tip angle. My vari-gauge for my wolverine never changes angle. I just move the v-arm to set the tip angle. The side angle issue is more about how far you wrap the grind around the tip than the angle on the sides.

You won't ruin a $100 tool, you will just discover the Wyko Grind.

While I believe my statement to be true I'll grant you Mr. Ellsworth has a few decades more experience than me and pieces displayed in musuems and videos produced, authored books and has tools named after him ... so I might be wrong.

Frank

[Steven Wilson]

I use the Elsworth jig to sharpen my Elsworth gouge. I set up a similar system to Jim's for using the Wolverine setup. I've also gotten the jig to work with my Tormek (just a piece of wood the correct height to hold the jig). I will have to disagree with Jeff as to the Tormek jig producing the same grind, I find the wings are close but not the same as the Elsworth jig. It's easy enough to get the Tormek to work with the Elsworth jig that I just use that.

[Keith Burns]

Bill

I'm not going to be around until Monday so I think its safe to drop this blasphemy on you, the firestorm will be over before I get back. Elsworth, Fingernail bowl grind, Irish grind, and players to be named later ... ALL THE SAME!

I was taught to worry about the tip angle. My vari-gauge for my wolverine never changes angle. I just move the v-arm to set the tip angle. The side angle issue is more about how far you wrap the grind around the tip than the angle on the sides.

You won't ruin a $100 tool, you will just discover the Wyko Grind.

While I believe my statement to be true I'll grant you Mr. Ellsworth has a few decades more experience than me and pieces displayed in musuems and videos produced, authored books and has tools named after him ... so I might be wrong.

Frank

Frank, you won't get an argument from me on this statement. I believe you are right. I have my Burns grind that works for me. I would dare say you would find it uncormfortable to use and I would have trouble using your grind. It is as much what works for you as anything.

[Travis Stinson]

I have my Burns grind that works for me. I would dare say you would find it uncormfortable to use........

I can attest to that!;)

[Richard Madison]

Isn't it about the included angle, moving from the tip out along the flutes? Been told, but don't know if it's accurate, that the true Ellsworth grind maintains approximately a 60 degree included angle all the way around. If so, it will look different on gouges with different flute shapes (cross sections), and the profile (side view) may look a little different.

In different words, the top view and side view may appear to approximate the "Ellsworth" (or whoever's) grind, but if the included angle along the flutes is only 35 degrees the thing is going to be a bit grabby. The steel doesn't know its name, but it knows its included grind angle at any point. And so does the wood.

I'm just asking, because I obviously don't know what all the names of the various gouge grinds mean. Maybe can learn something. Thanks for reading this.

[Jim Becker]

Richard, you are absolutely correct that the flute design and profile has great influence on the end result after grinding. It's not just about the angles, but the configuration of the metal. I own two "real" Ellsworth gouges and have also re-ground a Sorby bowl gouge to the "same" configuration. It's similar, but NOT the same...and it does feel different. For that reason, I use the Sorby tool for rougher work and always insure I have the one of the actual Ellsworth licensed tools in my hand for finishing work and details. Either of those is identical in all ways as to the "feel" and the cutting performance.


Elsworth, Fingernail bowl grind, Irish grind, and players to be named later ... ALL THE SAME!

Only in very, very general terms...there are specific differences between any individual "grind", both in configuration and as acknowledged in my previous comment, due to the profile of the flute on the particular tool.

-----
The real bottom line: Consistency. If you are happy with a particular tool and grind ON THAT TOOL, stick with it. For me, that's the official Ellsworth grind on an Ellsworth licensed tool. I learned how to use it in David's three-day class and feel most comfortable with that. The few times I've turned in others' shops with their tools, despite being in some form of "side-grind", I was not as comfortable. With the Ellsworth tool, I can even hollow a bowl one-handed (as we did in his class), with reasonable comfort.

[Jeff Farris]

The only thing that makes a tool "grabby" is getting the bevel out of contact with the stock.

While the flute shape and and grind shape work hand-in-hand, it all comes down to how you apply the tool to the wood. If Jim is happy with the shape he is getting, then that is fine. I know of at least two different companies that sell what they say are the "official" Ellsworth tool, and the factory grinds look absolutely nothing alike. If Jim has learned to grind the shape at the master's knee, I would say he has a better handle on what the shape should look like than the tool manufacturers. I feel very confident in saying that if David Ellsworth took a David Ellsworth tool out of a new package, he would go to the grinder with it before he went to the lathe, and that it would not look exactly the same when he came off the grinder as it did when it came out of the package.

The "side grind" turns into a very personal tool once you use it for a while and experiment with its compenents. Here are some factors to consider when you're searching for your "signature" shape.

What I call the "primary" bevel angle is the angle at the center of the tool (at the point). A shorter bevel -- let's say in the 60 degree range -- allows the tool shaft and handle to be presented at less of an angle to the stock, meaning that you can keep the bevel riding deep into a bowl, even if it has steep sides. A longer bevel -- let's say in the 45 degree range -- can't keep bevel contact on a deep, steep-sided turning, but delivers a nicer finish because you have more bearing surface. My personal compromise on this issue is 55 degrees. I have used 60 degrees, but that little bit of extra bearing surface feels more comfortable to me. Everyone should find a comfort zone that matches their turning style and design sense somewhere between 45 and 60.

Now to the side grind. How long the grind comes back onto the tool and how it reacts with the flute geometry is where a great deal of personal preference comes into play, and where individual "signature" gouges are born. The side grind serves two purposes. The first, and in my opinion most important, is to increase the cutting surface available. If you cut a square grind on a bowl gouge, the chip is limited to the width of the flute. When you bring the grind around the side, you have now gone from a cutting surface that is around 1/4 inch (given that we are talking about 1/2 to 5/8 inch bowl gouges) to one that can be significantly wider -- pushed to the extreme, over an inch. That wider shaving allows you to quickly remove stock when roughing the bowl into shape. But, the wider the grind, the more trouble you can get into, if you don't have a firm grip on the concept of riding the bevel.

The side grind shape and how it blends into the primary bevel should allow two types of cuts. If you ride the bevel at the center and the side, you should get a controlled but aggressive stock removal. If you ride the side only, and the center is not engaged, you should get an extremely fine and very controlled finishing cut.

The second purpose of a side grind is shear scraping. This is the reason many folks pull the grind way back -- an inch or better. It gives you more area to work with as a scraper. Personally, I find the shape of the side grind more important than the size. I shear scrape with a gouge on the outside of turnings, but use a normal flat bowl scraper for the inside. So, I want my side grind gouge to have a nearly perfectly straight edge to it from the back up to the point that it starts blending into the point. If it is a convex radius, geometry tells us that we are only going to have one point contact between the turning and the tool. If you've seen Jordan's section of the AAW sharpening video, you'll see that his is very straight, too. As are most of the Ellsworth gouges I have seen. A radiused side edge will bevel cut a bit smoother, but it won't shear scrape very well.

Jordan's statement that the length of the side grind should be roughly equal to the diameter of the gouge goes against Ellsworth's long side grind. My personal gouge is just a wee bit longer than the gouge is wide -- about 5/8 inch side grind on a 1/2 inch bowl gouge. Just make sure you're pulling that side back with a reason. Don't pull it back an inch or better and then take 1/4 inch wide shaping cuts and shear scrape with a tiny little portion of the exposed edge. If you do, you're wasting steel.

How the primary bevel blends into the side grind is where grinding geometry gets a little tricky, and why the vast majority of turners use a jig to do the job. Unfortunately, the jig -- whosever you use -- only controls the eccentricity of the arc. You're still responsible for how long you grind at each point along the arc and how broad an arc you use.

The timing of the grind determines if the side edge is convex or straight (or screwed up). If it is concave (screwed up) it is very likely that you spent all your time grinding the side, and not enough grinding the primary bevel angle.

How far you swing the arc is a more subtle control and really needs more careful attention than it has been given. Mike Mahoney proposes that you should go from 45 left to 45 right. Most people go all the way around. Where a lot of folks waste some tool and create less than ideal shapes is by going too far down on each side. You curl the cutting edge inside the flute if you go past 90 degrees relative to the grindstone. I see folks do it all the time on every different grinding system, but you'll have more usable edges if you establish the habit of stopping at the point where the tool is perpendicular to the grindstone and parallel with the axis of the grinder. (Thank you Soren Berger for teaching me this).

Through the luxury of my position, I have stacks of gouges, all with different grinds. Inevitably, when I am turning for myself I grab my 55 degree, TORMEK jig setting #4, Sorby 1/2 inch. Keep experimenting, keep turning, keep grinding and you'll find your "signature" gouge, too.

[Richard Madison]

Thank you Jim. Thank you Jeff. Worth reading a couple or six times.

[Bill Boehme]

The best way to truly get the Ellsworth grind is with the Ellsworth jig. You can't exactly duplicate it with the Vari-Grind; I don't know about the Tormek as I don't own one. I believe I recently posted pictures of the Ellsworth setup as well as my Wolverine stuff...may even been in one of your threads.

Well, Jim the Tormek system is so close to the results that you get with the Ellsworth jig that you could not tell the difference other than having a much sharper and smoother cutting edge than using the dry grinder with an Ellsworth jig. Also, there is no reason that you can't use the Ellsworth jig on a Tormek. Besides, having a jig such as the Ellsworth has nothing to do with making a proper grind other than having the proper angle as you move the tool around. You can still screw up the grind using a jig as easily as you can doing it freehand. When using any of the gouge grinding jigs, it is necessary to pay attention to the shape that you want and that part has to be controlled by you. I believe that I have posted a drawing here before that shows the profile for an Ellsworth grind.

BTW, I arrived at essentially the same settings that Jeff Farris of Sharp Tools USA says to use. After I figured out what settings to use, I then found out that the new owner's manual gives the settings that Jeff mentioned. The manual can be downloaded in PDF format from the Sharp Tools web site (at least it could the last time that I checked).

Bill

[Malcolm Reding]

Hi Bill

I also have the Ellsworth bowl gouge 1/2" and the complete Wolverine system. Several months ago I attended a day long seminar by Don Geiger where he demonstrated the Ellsworth sharpening jig used in conjunction with the Wolverine system and his "Vertical Sharpening System" http://www.geigerssolutions.com/vertsol.html. I bought both for about $130 and they work great with the Wolverine system. However, if you have bowl gouges larger or smaller than 1/2", you have to use the jig supplied with the Wolverine system. Just match the angle and setback and it works great. Hope this helps. I have the Wolverine installed with an 8" variable speed grinder.

[Jim Becker]

Malcolm, I also have Don Geiger's setup and it's great.

[Bill Wyko]

Thanks for the info. After spending all that I have in search of the perfect sharpening jig I think you've finally given me the last piece of the puzzle.:rolleyes: