Old planes to avoid?

[Greg Crawford]

I'm trying to get a few planes for different jobs. I would like to get a jointer like a Stanley #7 or #8, but they get high priced. Are there any of the older manufacturers to avoid? I've found Baileys, Millers Falls, Keen Kutter, Record, etc.

I'd also like a low angle jack like the Lie Nielsen modeled after the Stanley #62. Did anyone else make a plane like that? I don't mind cleaning up an old plane if it's basically sound, and I want a user, not a collectible.

Thanks for getting me hooked!

Greg

[Mike K Wenzloff]

You'll find the low angle Stanleys are generally more expensive than a LN, all things considered. For shaving a few bucks off the LN price, the LV bevel up jack is a fine tool. Even if others manufactured a low angle jack (I'm not aware of any), they are rare enough that they command much higher prices than other vintage models.

As for a vintage #7/8...the big give a heck is to simply find one which isn't going to take much to flatten it. Which means either taking a risk on auction sites or buying from someone like Walt (a member here):
http://www.brasscityrecords.com/51.html

There's also garage sales, tool meets.

Take care, Mike

[Greg Crawford]

Thanks Mike. I didn't know about Walt. As for flat, Patrick Leach says there are NOT any flat old jointers, but the old-timers got good results. I would love a LN (guaranteed flat within .0015"), but the price is too high for me right now. I'll take a look at the LV bevel up jack.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Planes with stamped steel frogs! In an auction lot, I got a smoother that had the name "Parplus" on it. Cast iron, some brass, wood tote and knob and a stamped steel frog!

[Glenn Madsen]

I've never purchased anything from Walt, but he's got a good reputation.

I HAVE purchased more than a few things from Lee Valley, and can tell you I have never gotten a bad Veritas product. The Low Angle Jack that I have is a very sweet plane, and priced very fairly, especially for someone who wants to get to work on furniture, rather than fettling planes. The Low Angle Block is very good, as is the Apron plane.

The first of the larger planes I bought was a pretty sweet new old stock Stanley #6 that Patrick Leach had on his monthly tools list. Talk about a means of feeding crack to addicts! An email shows up with 100 pieces of goodies, and a buy-it-now type of presentation. I think I bought 6 or 8 planes from him. He did things like a lot of folks did - tell me you want it, and I'll send it to you. Either send a check, or send it back. Not the cheapest way to buy stuff, but everything I got was good, and exactly as advertised. For me, it was the best way not to buy junk, and fit in with a very busy non-woodworking portion of my life.

Walt is another very good resource, in the same class of people.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

God bless Pat--but I have had several from #6 on up that are more than flat enough. By that I mean as flat as one can get with sandpaper on a reference plate in less than 10 minutes, beginning with 100 grit and ending at 320.

In fact, I have never bought an out of flat Stanley, Sargent or Ohio metal plane that took longer than the above. Call it luck of the draw or that there are many out there which are more than acceptably "out of flat."

They will not be as flat as a LV or LN plane without serious work (which I think is unnecessary anyway). But for vintage, there definitely are ones much flatter than others. In all likelihood, Bob Smalser has an article which covers flatten one to achieve good performance. Do a search on his posts and you'll find within the last week or two a post he made of his articles.

Take care, Mike

[Jake Darvall]

I think generally their all ok. You just have learn how to tune them...and use em.

If your have trouble making it work though, its probably a good chance that the planes not setup right. A well setup plane will be a pleasure to use. You'll feel it in that first shaving.

[Jim Nardi]

I've had more luck buying used planes off of e-bay that have well used blades. Must be someone actually kept and used it. Made in england stanleys seem to go cheaper. I bought a #6 for 40 shipped to me in excellent shape last month.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Greg, have you ever thought about wooden planes? The jointers in wood are relatively easy to find and can be fixed easily. I recently purchased a Sandusky jointer from eBay for about $26 including shipping. Added a new sole sharpened the blade and I gave it a try this morning, works like a charm.
Cast iron jointer are quite heavy and it requires a significant physical effort to flatten boards using one.

[Greg Crawford]

Jim,

I just bought an English made Stanley #5 on Ebay for $10.50. Good shape too.

Zahid, no, I hadn't thought much about a wooden jointer. It does seem that they'd be easier to repair. I'll have to start looking.

Thanks

[Michael Schwartz]

Planes with stamped steel frogs! In an auction lot, I got a smoother that had the name "Parplus" on it. Cast iron, some brass, wood tote and knob and a stamped steel frog!

I have one of those, it is stamped with some manufacturer which I have never heard of. A stamped steel frog will get you nowhere, as it offers no blade support. Fine I guess for scraping paint, or pulling nails, but not for planing wood.

Also, Stanley Aluminum planes (dumb idea) belong in the hands of collectors, as they will oxidize and leave marks all over your workpeice.

Be carefull who you buy from and try not to spend over 20 or 25 bucks unless you have to. There are still alot of great deals out there as long as you are paitent. You can get that bedrock 604 -1/2 right now from a collector for thre or four hundred bucks, but if you go to enough flea markets, and garage sales, you will eventually find one for five bucks.

[Steven Wilson]

Not to pick on Sears but I would avoid Sears planes. My wife picked up a couple of old somewhat rusted Sears planes (#4 and #5) at a garage sale and gave them to me as a gift (it is the thought that counts). Around the same time I picked up a somewhat worse off Bailey #5 and started to restore it. My wife was interested in learning so we worked together to restore the three planes. After cleaning up the rust (not too bad) we started in on adjusting the planes and work on the irons. It was fairly easy to get the irons reasonably sharp on all of them but we had a bear of a time adjusting the mechanicals of the Sears planes. Anyhow, all three planes were brought into as decent a tune as the plane was going to be and the Sears were fairly disapointing (sloppy adjusters, light weight frogs, not as good of a cut). My wife then knew that the little things can make a big difference. Now when she's out garage sale shopping she avoids the junk and tries to bring home the good stuff. She's always on the look out for Miller Falls braces and screw drivers, and Perfect Handle screw drivers. Braces are real useful items to have around

[Michael Schwartz]

I have two craftsman's, a #3 size with corigated sides and plastic handles, and a #4 size which has wood handles. I think I paid 10 bucks for the 4, and it was covered in rust, and the 3 I got for 2 bucks or something.

I havent really put any effort into properly tuning the three, I am thinking if anything of filing the mouth open, and cambering the blade heavily and using it as a scrub plane. The thing keeping me from doing that is that the sides are corrugated and it is kind of an interesting plane to look at.

I have put some work into the 4 and as it is now it is useless, I still need to flatten out the sole a bit and sharpen the blade properly, but I think it could be a decent plane at some point.

The thing I find with Craftsmans, Newer, and New Stanelys, Stanely Handymen etc... is that I find that that the quality of milling of the frog is spotty, and that some just never sit square to the sole.

I have a Stanely #5 that I belive was just a cheap plane that sold at harware stores and I spent 4 hours flattening the sole, and proceded to sharpen up the blade, and adjust the frog, and It just wouldn't take a uniform shaving no matter what I do. I am probably going go put a heavy camber on the blade. This is a potential user for stuff like timberframing.

[Michael Schwartz]

Greg, have you ever thought about wooden planes? The jointers in wood are relatively easy to find and can be fixed easily. I recently purchased a Sandusky jointer from eBay for about $26 including shipping. Added a new sole sharpened the blade and I gave it a try this morning, works like a charm.
Cast iron jointer are quite heavy and it requires a significant physical effort to flatten boards using one.

Alot of the blades from the old jointers are great, laminated steel, thicker than a Lie Neilson blade, easy to sharpen freehand. If the plane is trashed, but the Iron is good, consider getting it just for the Iron and making a plane for it.

I have an old wood jointer that I havent got arroudn to restoring yet. I am planning on having a friend who works at a mill flatten out the sole on their 3 headed jointer.

[Kevin French]

Greg

If you find a cheap knock off buy it, and worry about upgrading later. At least you'll have one and be learning to use it. JMWLO

[Bob Smalser]

I'm trying to get a few planes for different jobs. I would like to get a jointer like a Stanley #7 or #8, but they get high priced.

I'd also like a low angle jack like the Lie Nielsen modeled after the Stanley #62.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4029780/267867288.jpg

I strongly recommend a 26" beech jointer instead, I use this one almost every day building boats. Not only are they cheaper, they usually work better because it's so easy to flatten (or renew) its sole. And you get more length for the weight, so they are usually more accurate, too. Just make sure you get the origiinal iron with some life remaining.

Not sure why you want the low-angle jack. What do you intend to do with it? There was a reason Stanley sold so few of them, and it wasn't because the 5 generations of professional craftsmen who made their livings with Bailey planes didn't know what they were doing.

[Rob Luter]

I second the opinion on stamped steel frogs. I have a "Worth" brand plane with one. It was a couple bucks at a second hand store. The iron is good. The frog is junk. I'm going to convert it into a scraper plane or an infill like Derek Cohen did.

[Michael Schwartz]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4029780/267867288.jpg

I strongly recommend a 26" beech jointer instead, I use this one almost every day building boats. Not only are they cheaper, they usually work better because it's so easy to flatten (or renew) its sole..
=
I agree with this, if you get a Stanely jointer you are going to need a really long peice of float glass you know is dead flat over the whole length, and alot of 60 grit silicone carbide paper. For this reason jointers are rarely flat, and nobody bothered to flatten them

I would recomenend getting either a LV or LN jointer, or gettign an old woodie. I got mine at an antiques store for 40 bucks, and it has a much thicker iron than the LN.

The methods for flattening a woodie out inolve either another plane, sandpaper on a flat surface, or a pushing throuhg a really good jointer you trust, very slowly, taking the lightest possible cuts. When flattening the sole of a woodie, bec carefull how much wood you take off, as the more you take off the larger the throat opening becomes.
Although with a Jointer this is less critical than with a smoother.

Using the bed on a Tablesaw or Jointer can produce mixed results, as often those are not as flat as you would like them to be. If you know the tollerences on your beds it is one thing, but dont' assume they are flat and true. You would be better off with MDF than some machine beds.

[Bob Smalser]

Float glass or presision-ground tables often won't cure a cast-iron plane. And the longer the sole, the worse the potential problems. What you can get away with on a #4 often differs dramatically with what you can do to a #8 to improve it. If you buy a Stanley jointer, make sure you check it for flat, first. I'd only buy a Sweetheart-era Stanley from pictures alone, and even then there's risk. For every thousandths you take off a plane's sole to flatten it, you both open up the mouth and reduce the iron's bed at the mouth, and can wind up with a plane with a flat sole that works worse than it did before you began. With nothing left to hold down the wood fibers for cutting and an iron prone to chatter because of inadequate support, you can easily make a poor-performing plane out of a mediocre-performing plane.

Yet plane physics are simple....dead-flat iron backs and soles dead flat at the toe, both ends of the mouth and the heel, combined with a quality iron....or lack of those features....are the only physical things that differentiate a fabled Norris from a worn-out Stanley in the same pitch.

Such is the beauty of wooden jointers. With a thick, often laminated iron and a dead-flat sole, there is simply no comparison with a Stanley # 7/8 you can't make true without ruining. And the soles are renewable. In these days of precision power jointers, there is no reason to waste time letting in graving pieces or flattening original soles. Instead of flattening an original sole every winter, simply do it once and laminate on a new sole. Then you can file out any mouth you prefer, for fine shavings on cabinet woods or heavy shavings on airdried boat woods.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8351&highlight=rehabbing+woodies

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4029780/49877202.jpg

So you can spend 40 bucks on a woodie and have money left to other tools, $425 on a 24" Lie Nielsen #7 or $225 or a 22" Veritas...but 22" isn't long enough for consistent, accurate jointing, and 26" or even 28" of woodie doesn't weigh any more in your hands. Your call.

[Michael Schwartz]

I Think the Iron in the woodie I picked up was worth the 40 bucks I paid for it alone. It is so thick that a honing guide would be a waste of time. I will probably put on a new sole, because I am not about to fork over a hundred bucks for a stanely #8 and spend 6 hours flattening it out to possibly make it worse.

I think the Veritas is a good deal at 225 bucks, and it should be lightyears better than a Stanely.

The longest Stanely I have is a 6C that was pretty flat from the start, as the corrugations supposedly relive stresses in the casting.

[Jake Darvall]

So you can spend 40 bucks on a woodie and have money left to other tools, $425 on a 24" Lie Nielsen #7 or $225 or a 22" Veritas...but 22" isn't long enough for consistent, accurate jointing, and 26" or even 28" of woodie doesn't weigh any more in your hands. Your call.

I think that says it all really.

Can also convert old woodies to have curved soles. Thats what I've been doing recently. Converted the soles of two woodies, one concave, one convex..........for coopered doors. uno, for the inside and outside. Did that by lapping them on the sides of a pipe with sandpaper adhered to it. :D . well it worked.

Over here can get woodies for as low as $10AU. Prefer to buy one of them, and spend me money on timber instead, than buy something near as costly as a car. Hard not to think that Woodworks predominately a rich mans hobby.

[Greg Crawford]

Not sure why you want the low-angle jack. What do you intend to do with it? There was a reason Stanley sold so few of them, and it wasn't because the 5 generations of professional craftsmen who made their livings with Bailey planes didn't know what they were doing.

Bob,

I'd like a low angle jack for trimming end grain. From what I've seen, read and experienced, they seem to be the best option on a shooting board.

Thanks for all the input. I have an 8" Grizzly jointer, but doing anything longer than 8' is pushing it. Then, if there's much figure in the grain, it's sanding time! The way I see it, with a plane, there are no limits on length, and if I get enough practice, maybe I'll even be able to flatten boards. Maybe even retire the Griz? Maybe be able to play Popeye in a movie?

Greg

[Tony Zaffuto]

Kind of comical find today at a local flea market: a new in the box smoother plane, marked "True Value", complete with a stamped steel frog. Box appeared to be several decades old and although the plane looked like it was handled a bit, I don't think the thing ever laid its eyes on a piece of wood!

[Bob Smalser]

Bob,

I'd like a low angle jack for trimming end grain. From what I've seen, read and experienced, they seem to be the best option on a shooting board.




That's fine. They are often billed as smoothers for figured wood, but low-angle planes used as smoothers have to be kept super sharp or there's a real danger of taking out an ugly chunk of the workpiece you've already put so much effort in. I've certainly done that in figured tropicals with low-angle block planes when I was too lazy to go back and get it's standard-angle counterpart. Smoothers with 50-degree frogs are safer in this regard.

These were originally made to resurface butcher blocks in meat packing houses, weren't common, and not many of the originals that were purchased survived because of the moisture conditions they worked in.

[John Schreiber]

Are there any of the older manufacturers to avoid?
I picked up a "Mohawk Made in USA Shelburne" #5 that I put a lot of work into flattening and cleaning, but which I could never make it hold its position well enough. I gave up on it as it was intended, but I opened the throat and ground the blade in an arch. That made it into a pretty decent scrub plane.

So there is one out there I'd avoid.

[Jeffrey Larsen]

A couple months ago, I was reading here about planes. Then I wrote about a few I was buying; Now, I have purchased way to many... What an addiction!

When I say too many, I mean 4s and 5s. Today I counted 7 # 5s that have followed me homes along with an equal number of number 4s....

Not sure where they all came from. Also have a number 606 BR, number 7 and number 8 both circa 1910. Also numerous others.

In terms of users, for both number 4s and 5s, it seems to me that the best way to go are newer models that are essentially NIB in terms of having something that is fairly quick to use. I know that a lot of folks here know a lot more than I do about stanley history and quality, but with the thought in mind of using the planes, I have found that I get using a lot quicker with the new in the box types rather than those that need a lot of rehabbing. I worked for hours on a Wards number 5--grinding, sanding, cleaning, etc. I did this to learn. Probably 12 hours later, I had a fairly light plane that works descently, but not as well as a number 5 stanley or miller falls. The wards one cost 12$ shipped. The stanley are often 25 shipped. the MF, a bit more. I cleaned up my latest Stanley user nib 5 last evening. In 45 minutes, I had the blade sharp enough to cut arm hairs, a flat sole, and all the controls feeling very positive. The miller falls ones seem to be more rusted around the depth adjustment compared with the stanelys--even the essentially unused MIller falls have been rusted and take more time to get goingalthough they do seem to have nicer fit and finish.

I have spend 10+ hours on my number 7 and it still doesn't work as well as I would like. I will need a new chip breaker and possibly new blade. The sole still isn't entirely flat. My number 8 on the other hand has a couple hours of work in it and although it appears about like the 7, it cuts like a dream. The 7 was in the range of 70$ shipped and the 8 around 80 or so.

My best user plane of all is a 606 bedrock with the hock blade I installed. The blade made all the difference. It was terrible prior to installing the hock, but now cuts like a dream. The chip breaker is beat up, so I plan to purchse another. I have used this to flatten, joint, and smooth a bit and it really works nicely. Before I spend money on the number 7, I will try the blade from the 606 in the number 7. If it cuts well, will see what to do next.

I bought these planes to learn on and learn I have. One of the main things I have learned is that the better the condition the plane is to start with, the quicker you can get it on the road. You have to factor in how much you like tinkering and what your time is worth. You also have to factor in, in my opinion what parts you will have to purchase and consider that in what is a good deal or not.

Well, lots of opinion here for a newbie, but hopefully some of my insights that have led to wasted money can help others. I have come to the conclusion that buying used planes is something like buying used cars... Most can be got going, but it may cost more than a new one when you factor in your time and new parts. Just my rambling 2 cents... Jeff

[James Owen]

Bob,

I'd like a low angle jack for trimming end grain. From what I've seen, read and experienced, they seem to be the best option on a shooting board.

Thanks for all the input. I have an 8" Grizzly jointer, but doing anything longer than 8' is pushing it. Then, if there's much figure in the grain, it's sanding time! The way I see it, with a plane, there are no limits on length, and if I get enough practice, maybe I'll even be able to flatten boards. Maybe even retire the Griz? Maybe be able to play Popeye in a movie?

Greg

For trimming end grain, the most important single factor IME is not the particular plane used, but the sharpness of the iron. A (well-sharpened) low angle plane works quite well for trimming end grain on or off a shooting board, but I typically use a #6 or #8 to trim both long grain edges and end grain on my shooting board. As long as the iron will pull shavings off of the end grain, it's sharp enough to do everything else, too.

Just a little food for thought.