Klausz workbench flip stops ???

[Doug Shepard]

Looking through the Landis Workbench Book last night I spotted something again that I've been curious about. Dont recall the exact page but somewhere in the page 90's I think. There's something about a flip stop hook for sawing that I'd like to find some more info on. I have a vague idea how this might be used but I've been unable to find much info.

The only web example I've stumbled across is from the workbenchdesign site. Here's a pic http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/bench/wb16.jpg (http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/bench/wb16.jpg)
and the text caption for the pic on another page says:
Another detail from Frank Klauz's workbench in the The Workbench Book. Mine are made from Bubinga scraps I had left over from another project. As you can see I made two of them-for both push and pull saws. Though I usually use Japanese pull saws, you never know....
Anybody use these and can describe a bit better how these are used? It looks like something that might be pretty useful but I'd like to understand how they're used. Are the bench dogs involved somehow for holding work against a position that's in line with these flip stops? The few pics I've seen are often closeups where it's hard to tell exactly where on the bench they have these mounted. On one pic I saw, I suspect this may be on the RH end back behind a traditional tail vise? With plans for a LV twinscrew, that location would probably be out, but if I've guessed how these might be used, what about putting one on the back edge of a bench near the RH edge? Anybody have any more detailed info on how these get used and where best to locate one?

[Chris Friesen]

The way I've seen it used, you hold the workpiece down with your hand, hang the part to be sawn off the edge past the stop, and saw with your other hand.

The stop takes the force of the sawing, but there's nothing keeping the wood from going sideways.

With a pull-saw you would use a stop between you and the piece, while with a western saw you would use a stop on the far side of the piece.

If you're putting a dual-screw on the RH side, I think your idea of a stop on the back side would probably work just fine, although it might be more likely to interfere with a workpiece being held for planing. What about a stop on the LH side, towards the rear that you could use while standing at the rear of the bench? Or try both locations and see what works best...

[Andrew Williams]

He lines up the flip stops so the workpiece will be held along the edge of the tool well. That way if you just hold it flush with the tool well wall and cut parallel to the side of the benchtop, your cut is square. This is demonstrated on his mortise and tenon video.

[Ken Werner]

I have used this little jig for years. Works great. Here are some pictures.



Hopefully the pictures are self explanatory.

Ken

[Doug Shepard]

This might be getting a little bit clearer but I guess I've still got some questions. Have these pretty much been developed on benches with tool wells? I wasnt planning a tool well so wasn't thinking of it and couldn't figure out what was holding the opposite end of the board that wasnt up against the flip stop. Ken, is that how yours is held too? I cant really tell from your pic exactly where the flip stop is located with respect to your bench and whether what you're cutting is being held against a tool well wall or what's holding the opposite end of the board. The pics do help me some, but I'm not all the way there yet. If that's what's going on, I guess that approach wouldn't work for me.

So could a viable alternative be to let the opposite end of the board butt up against a bench dog to hold it square with the table and in line with the flip stop? I'd have to experiment a bit with the layout as the dog is only 3/4". Rest it against one side of the dog and one stop for western and the other for Japanese saws. I'd have to check whether I could make both stops fit in that narrow a space and lined up with either side of a dog. Or is this not really worth pursuing if I'm not using a tool well?

The only places I can think of to locate one on what I'm planning without having vises interfering with the locations or standing area for sawing would be either on the back edge with the work running across the bench, or on the LH end with the work running the length of the bench. So I'd be standing just near the back end of the twinscrew, or at the far back left corner.

[Ken Werner]

Doug, I've had this bench for about 25 years, and it has evolved all the while. I don't have a tool well. Actually, I did and took it down - found that it interfered with working around the backside of the bench. [I don't have an assembly table, so the bench has to do both jobs.]

Anyway, I have a standard configuration - face vise on the front left, tail vise on the end right. The flip stop is on the back side [edge] of the bench, near the tail vise. I stand at the end of the bench, and saw with my right hand. I use my left hand to hold the work against the stop.

Although having something to register the work square to the edge of the bench might be helpful, I just draw a square line and saw to it. If I need a perfectly square cut, I usually use the table saw or chop saw. If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Ken

[Chuck Saunders]

From where I stand, Ken's jig looks about as simple and clever as anything I have seen.

[Steve Wargo]

I've been using the flip stop on my bench now for over two years. While I don't use it very often, when I do it works exactly as it should. Neat little design.

[Gary Curtis]

I'm installing the same flip stops on the bench I'm building right now. Designs are shown in these magazines:

Woodworker's Journal - Winter 2007
Fine Woodworking - April 2003 pg 50 -Rock Solid Workbench
Fine Woodworking - Winter 2003 Tools & Shops edition

If you are right handed, best placed just back from your Tail Vise, off the right side.

Best thought of as an improvement over using a sawhorse to saw a piece of wood. The stop opposes the forward thrust of your sawing only. Your left hand holds the board down and also against the fence. For a pulll saw, a stop that resists forces 'toward' the front edge of the bench is called for.

Much the same function is served by little stops that pop up from mortised holes in the bench top, although these are best for planing, not sawing, because they are situated not near an edge, but usually just in from the front apron of the bench near the center (going from left to right).

Gary Curtis

[Robert Miller]

Odd that you should ask about these stops. I've just finished making them out of rosewood for my new bench last night. They are 1/4" thick and 3" long. lined it up with the tool tray edge as described.
I've never used them before so I'll try em' out tonight after i install them on the bench.

[Doug Shepard]

...
Anyway, I have a standard configuration - face vise on the front left, tail vise on the end right. The flip stop is on the back side [edge] of the bench, near the tail vise. I stand at the end of the bench, and saw with my right hand. I use my left hand to hold the work against the stop.

Although having something to register the work square to the edge of the bench might be helpful, I just draw a square line and saw to it. If I need a perfectly square cut, I usually use the table saw or chop saw. If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Ken

This helps. I just assumed you'd have to have something to have the opposite end of the board against so it didn't want to pivot around that flip stop while you were sawing. Sounds like it's a non-issue. I think your location is one of the ones I was thinking about, but might end up on the left end while standing behind. I'm thinking the twinscrew might be slightly in the was for standing, but I'll try it out once I have a bench together.


I think I may have one or two of the mags that Gary mentioned, so will see if I can find those as well.

Thanks folks.

[Paul Saffold]

Have you thought about using a bench hook? They support the work so it won't twist when cutting and the fence acts as a guide to help keep the cut square. Plus, not being attached to the bench, it can be used where ever convenient. Just a thought.

Paul

[Robert Trotter]

Just some ideas...

If you have four-side access to your bench put it on the left end and work from the back.
If only access from the front and sides maybe a bench hook might be better (since you are planning on useing a twin screw end vice) as it can be placed anywhere as stated. Depending on your shop this may be useful if you have to have you project on your bench and it ends up near the end. You don't have to move the project-to-date and just place the bench hook somewhere free.

However this would probably be better for shorter pieces of stock. Others with more experience can chime in here...

You could use a saw bench.

If you use the flip up stop you don't have to have the other end supported, just use your hand. But if you wanted to and mounted the flip stop on the LH end and worked from the back, you could locate it to line up with your dog holes for the twin screw end vice or with your hold down holes if using them. just set it so that the type of saw you use most is set right. If you use both Japanese and western saws then the the other could use a home made packer on a dog etc to bring it in line.

Robert

[Terry Beadle]

In Frank's mortise and tennon video, he demonstrates the use of the flip stop. The tool tray is not required but on Frank's work bench it gave him a place to aleign to for square and perhaps a little better purchase to hold the stock.

[Ken Werner]

I use both the flip stop and a bench hook. They have somewhat different purposes, although they work the same for cross cutting squarely with a Western saw. Also, a bench hook doesn't work with a pull saw.

I'd say make both, shouldn't take more than an hour.

Ken

[Brian Kent]

I have read about - but not tried - turning the bench hook around and hooking over the tool tray or back of the bench for using a pull-type saw.

[Alan Turner]

Doug,

When I built my first bench I put on the Klaus flip stop. This bench has traditional bench dog holes, rectangular, but also two rows of 3/4" holes. I aligned them for the use of the LV round dogs, so that the face of the round dogs are aligned with the faces of the square dogs, and then set the flip stop even with the flat faces of the round dogs, so the round dogs can be used easily with the flip stop. Made mine out of 12mm BB ply, and it is still in service. It is mounted behind the TV, on the right. But, that said, I use a bench hook far more frequently.

[harry strasil]

The flip stop looks like a neat handy little trick. But personally, I don't care for the piece sticking over the bench and falling off onto the floor and sometimes splintering out on the bottom side when almost all the way thru. My Bench Hooks are a two piece item, one wide one to saw on, a second narrow one to keep the work piece from skewing around and to keep the workpiece from tipping down, with any convenient scantling serving as a third height prop to keep everything supported. If I were to decide to use the flip stop system, I would use it in congunction with a bench dog and put it on the opposite end so I could grasp the offcut with my left hand.

just my 2¢ worth.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/benchhook001.jpg

[Ken Werner]

Jr., good to see you back on the Creek.

Ken

[harry strasil]

I never left Ken, I just had other priorities and was trying to keep up with mine and my wifes health problems. I visited every couple of days to see what was going on.

Jr.

[Bruce Branson]

I have two that I use hooked on the front of the tool tray.