HELP~Joinery Suggestions

[Mark Hulette]

LOML has 'commissioned' me to build a toy box in an attempt to control the mounds of plastic that have accumulated after Christmas. Here's my dilemma:

I need a method for joining the corners without investing in a Leigh D4 or similar. I would like to use solid wood vs pw but that's not set in concrete.

The dimensions will be approx. 23.5"H x 38"W x 23.5"D

Woodsmith #105 has an article that uses keyed dovetails and that interests me but the article uses it on a much smaller piece. If I do go with solid wood I'd prefer to go with something other than biscuits and/or screws.

Thanks for your suggestions...

[Chris Padilla]

Box joints can be made with a very simple and cheap jig on your table saw. Odds are good you have enough scrap laying around to build one.

For the size of the project, you'll need a large solid fence attached to your equally solid/sturdy miter gauge or you could build a sled for this purpose.

Going the other way, you could build a jig for the box joints and use your router and a straight bit. This is probably easier due to the size of the boards.

I am sure you can find examples of this all over the web or at some people's websites here. Once you see the plans, you'll see how simple a joint this is to make AND it looks really good, too.

The Kreg pocket-hole jig is another option but you'll need about $140 for that and you could probably find a dovetail jig of some for that money. I find myself grabbing this thing off the wall all the time to toss together jigs or make quick work of putting two pieces of wood together. I'm not sure I would use this for a nice toy chest, however, but the joints are very strong...no doubt. Kreg does supply plugs to cover up the pocket holes so you can hide the screws.

If you go plywood, just edge-band it in hardwood before making the box joints.

Good Luck!

[Todd Burch]

Mark, if you are in a hurry, there is nothing wrong with a rabbet and glue and nails. If you want to use 3/4" plywood, you can still rabbet, but cut a 1/2" x 1/2" rabbet all the way around each end piece, and then on the front and back pieces where they meet the top and bottom pieces.

This creates a 1/4" x 1/4" rabbet when assembled, which you can then fill with solid wood, and it gives a nice outlined look and hides the edges of the plywood. Here's a picture. Todd

[Chris Padilla]

Todd, that is the fastest joint in the West! :)

If I were to do it that way, I'd probably miter the joints (use biscuits, too) and then use a rabbetting bit with appropriately-sized bearing in my router to gouge out a clean notch to glue in a strip of hardwood standing proud and then sand it down or profile it.

Boy, that's a healthy sentence!

[Dave Richards]

Here's another option. Make your panels of solid wood or plywood. Then make posts for the corners with grooves plowed into two adjoining faces to take the ends of the panels.

[Rob Bourgeois]

Mark, if you are in a hurry, there is nothing wrong with a rabbet and glue and nails. If you want to use 3/4" plywood, you can still rabbet, but cut a 1/2" x 1/2" rabbet all the way around each end piece, and then on the front and back pieces where they meet the top and bottom pieces.

This creates a 1/4" x 1/4" rabbet when assembled, which you can then fill with solid wood, and it gives a nice outlined look and hides the edges of the plywood. Here's a picture. Todd


Or.. run the board to the end which will show the ply wood edge then make a corner molding to attach over the corner. Dont leave the 1/4 x 1/4 rabbet. This would give sort of a "fake" panel construction look to the piece. You can also buy the molding if you are really pushed for time.

I like that idea Todd and might use it later on. Where do I send the royalities check. :) I got some Maple ply and some 1/4 cherry scraps that just might become a box.

[Todd Burch]

Rob, just send any royalties to Felder, c/o Burchwood USA's account!!

Also, I used the technique you described several years ago for a quick and dirty tool box that was going to Mexico with me on a mission trip. It really did turn out pretty nice. And, it survived the baggage carousel on the way back too. CRASH!! I sold it a few years ago in a garage sale - $65.

It had to be as light as possible to stay under the 70 pound limit when loaded with tools. I used 1/4" luan plywood and home depot #2 pine. I made the panels first by sizing the 1/4" ply for panels, and then bordering it (framing it) with pine. After the panels were all framed, I put it together with rabbets and nails and glue. I finished it off with scotia moulding where the 3/4" pine met the 1/4" luan. Here's a picture.

[Mark Hulette]

Here's another option. Make your panels of solid wood or plywood. Then make posts for the corners with grooves plowed into two adjoining faces to take the ends of the panels.


Dave-
I had also thought about using frame and panel but I think your idea would be quicker.

[Mark Hulette]

Thanks guys for the suggestions- there are several with variations that I hadn't considered.

Todd- thanks for posting the drawing and the pic of your tool chest... you made a mighty nice looking chest from pine and luan. $65 was a deal for someone.

One last question- has anyone used the Incra Ultra jigs on anything of this size? If so, was it very cumbersome?

Thanks again, guys!

[Daniel Rabinovitz]

Mark
The fellows have come up with some ingenious ideas for you.
I have one more but it doesn't match the simplicity and shear elegance of Todd's idea and drawing.
I was going to suggest lock joints. "L" shape on the side pieces with a sort of one leg forshortened "U" on the front piece.
I would run a round over on the edge of Todd's idea so the junior woodworker won't get sliced on the shape edges of the wooden corner's. And don't forget to use 1/2 inch ply for the bottom which is placed in a dado. But maybe I'm getting too simplistic and those things are understood by all.
ps One more thing - self closing gadgets for the lid so that you don't pinch or slam your pinkies.
Daniel :cool:

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

I read your post twice and think it says you want to use solid wood ? If that's what you want, then you can just cut a rabbit on each side panel. Image sort of like a lap joint but on long grain. A lot like Todd's picture except both panels get the rabbit. Then just glue the sides together. No biscuits just glue it. The glue is stonger then wood on long grain, so there's no mechanical joint that can be stronger made from the same amount of glued wood.

If the looks really matter, the other joints look nicer. But they aren't stronger.

[Scott Coffelt]

Its always nice to add something into the tool corral and the bits aren't that bad. I've not tried it with ply, but it would produce a nice corner on solid wood. They seem to be pretty strong.

BTW, you can pick up a Kreg Rocket Kit for about $60. You can get plugs and do them fromt eh inside and you would not see a thing on the outside.

To build on an early message is to take apiece of solid would and cut rabbits on two corners and then butt the ply to them. You still have the issue with the top edge, so you would want to edge that with solid wood.

Or use MDF and add some corner braces on the inside. Not sure how it would handle the beating, but if you round over the edges and cover with a good hard paint would probably hold up good.

And lastly..... hand cut dovetails or box joints. Cost about $15 for a dovetail saw.

[EliotMason]

Lots of good ideas here! I love my Kreg. I've used my Incra yo make through dovetails for LOML's wedging table (clay). That's only about 8" deep though. If you are looking for an excuse to buy an Incra, it will do what you want - you just need a large enough table to support the work.

BTW - any use their bandsaw for dovetails? Mark Duginske (or was it Lonnie Bird?) shows how in the bandsaw book. Looks pretty straightfoward.

[Mike Cutler]

I made the dovetail jigs in Mark Duginske's Bandsaw Handbook.They actually worked pretty well, you could cut the tails pretty fast,but the pins took alot more time. I think this project might be a little big for the bandsaw jig method. I'd make a nice 3/4" box joint jig out of MDF and use a 3/4" dado blade setup to do the joints, or just use a simple frame and panel assembly for the entire project, I've seen examples where contrasting woods and tones were utilized, and they came out really nice. Put a nice round edge to all the corners. I'd also incorporate about a 3/4" gap along the front to protect little fingers from getting smashed, and I believe that either Rockler or Highland Hardware has Hydraulic Safety Lid supports that are UL approved for toy boxes, so that the lid can't come crashing down on the little fingers, or big ones for that matter, and a set of nice casters for ease of rolling around. Hey.. maybe I'll build one too! I got lots of "toys"!!!! There is also a book entitled Treasured Chests, I think this is the correct title, that has alot of interesting ideas in it. A question for the masses; Is it possible to build a toybox too large?

[David Rose]

Mark, if you have a router table, I would also consider the miter lock bit. I've used it on a couple of pine chests and it has a lot of holding power with only glue. Once the bit is adjusted, it's as fast as any method too.

David

[Steve Hepditch]

Mark,
Here is a pic of a toybox I did a while back that is box-jointed together. The jig is fairly easy to make, it just takes some tweaking to keep the joints tight over a longer span. I got the jig for mine out of an older shopnotes, but there are plenty of plans floating around.

I like the look of the box joints - not as pretty as dovetails, but a lot less work. Any of the suggested joints should be plenty strong, you just have to decide what look you're going for. If I were to do this type of box again, I'd probably go back to the box joints, or to a post-and-panel setup where the panels were glued into grooves cut into corner posts.

[Mark Singer]

The traditional joint for a corner on a chest is a dovetail! With solid wood you should cut it by hand. It is quite easy since the pins and tails are far apart. Start with a half-pin and end with one. You can make the tails 3 " long so there are few. Scribe the tails from the pins. Put a number on each corner (both pieces). This will look the best and it is probably the fastest since there is no machine set up. (Kreg jig is faster of course....but you end up with butt joints and plugs! )

[Scott Coffelt]

mis-type and leave out "joint and". :p

[Mark Hulette]

Mark, if you have a router table, I would also consider the miter lock bit. I've used it on a couple of pine chests and it has a lot of holding power with only glue. Once the bit is adjusted, it's as fast as any method too.

David

David-
I knew there was another joint I was trying to think of- that's it! It would be a sight less expensive than the Incra but...

One quick question regarding the miter lock joint: do you miter the ends first or does the bit cut it?

Thanks~

[Mark Hulette]

The traditional joint for a corner on a chest is a dovetail! With solid wood you should cut it by hand. It is quite easy since the pins and tails are far apart. Start with a half-pin and end with one. You can make the tails 3 " long so there are few. Scribe the tails from the pins. Put a number on each corner (both pieces). This will look the best and it is probably the fastest since there is no machine set up. (Kreg jig is faster of course....but you end up with butt joints and plugs! )

Mark- I'd love to try that but alas, I've not done HC DTs before and don't really have the time to get my chisels back in shape but I guess it might be a hoot to try- won't know 'til I give it a shot. (How's that for a run-on sentence?)

[David Rose]

Mark, sorry to respond so late. My stinkin' spam filter was blocking posts! Aohello... I gotta get rid of it. I don't miter what I run over the bit. Since I would be doing it on a bandsaw (no table saw), I don't want the slightly rougher edge.

David


David-
I knew there was another joint I was trying to think of- that's it! It would be a sight less expensive than the Incra but...

One quick question regarding the miter lock joint: do you miter the ends first or does the bit cut it?

Thanks~

[Mark Hulette]

Mark, sorry to respond so late. My stinkin' spam filter was blocking posts! Aohello... I gotta get rid of it. I don't miter what I run over the bit. Since I would be doing it on a bandsaw (no table saw), I don't want the slightly rougher edge.

David

Thanks, David! That may be the ticket... how does it do in plywood?

[Alan Turner]

Through carcase dovertails, by hand, are not very difficult. Since there are few, and you will not be doing needle style, you can use the router with an edge guide (or on a table with fence) to cut to the scribed line, which leaves only modest chisel work. Just fix up a 1/2"'er and you should be good to go.
If this is your first set, just cut a few practice ones first. And if you choose to cut them a bit tight, a file will give you the final fit more easily than trying to pare with a chisel.

[Mark Singer]

Alan,
That is what I said! There are not that many hand cut through dovetails...you can spread them out and it will make the whole piece. Its good practice for the hard tiny ones on drawers!

[Mike Kelly]

Mark, if you have a router table, I would also consider the miter lock bit. I've used it on a couple of pine chests and it has a lot of holding power with only glue. Once the bit is adjusted, it's as fast as any method too.

David

For solid wood this is a great joint. I used the lock miter joint on this chest. Here are some pictures on how to use it. It can be frustrating to set up the first time. Or second! http://www.woodtechtooling.com/CMT/RouterBits/lockmiterbits.html

[Mike Kelly]

David-
I knew there was another joint I was trying to think of- that's it! It would be a sight less expensive than the Incra but...

One quick question regarding the miter lock joint: do you miter the ends first or does the bit cut it?

Thanks~


The bit has to cut the joint. If you miter it first, you would cut away part of the joint. Look at the profile at this website.

http://www.woodtechtooling.com/CMT/RouterBits/lockmiterbits.html

Click on: "How to Produce Perfectly Fitting Miter Joints."

The bit is large and is very powerful. You also will need a zero clearance insert for very good results. The bit trys to pull the wood into the fence as it passes.

[Mark Hulette]

Mike- Thanks for the link, tips and for sharing the pics of the very nice blanket chest! Outstanding work and nice design!

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/prod-cmt.htm

Scroll down to the lock miter bit and read up on how to set up the bit and a neat way to make legs....