Table saw dilemma

[Steve Rybicki]

I have a 20+ year old Craftsman table saw and the motor just died (at least I can't get it working after taking it apart and cleaning it). My search for a replacement motor has left me doubting that fixing this saw is worth it. I can’t find a used motor at what I would consider a used price. New ones are at least $200 and I doubt the saw could be sold for more than that, with the new motor attached. I could always commit a bit more money to the old saw and upgrade the fence, making it more user friendly, but as most know, there are other issues with these saws. So, the dilemma is do I buy the new motor or upgrade to a new saw, and if I go the upgrade route, just how much more saw do I need?

The money for a new saw could be well spent on a bandsaw (don’t have one), but I don’t know if I want to commit to another 20 years with the old Craftsman. I’m leaning towards the new saw. I’ve been comparing the Grizzly G0478 to the G1023 and have some specific questions for anyone who has actually used both of these. I’m wondering how much difference there is between them.

Will trunions attached to the cabinet make that much difference once they are adjusted? From what I understand the G0478 has the type of trunions typically seen on contractor saws. Is 1 hp extra on the motor, that noticeable on 4/4 hardwood stock (I will wire either with 220)? Do the handwheels work or feel any different? Is the Alum-Classic fence any different than the Shop Fox Classic in actual use?

I don’t see the need to buy $1000 saw if a $700 one will be very close in function and feel. It would also save a little money to go towards the bandsaw. In fact, it appears the G0478 has a wider rip capacity, which is something I see as an advantage over the G1023. I realize there is no right or wrong in this decision, but I’d appreciate the views of anyone who has gone through this process on these two saws.

[Harley Lewis]

I don't have either saw, but I have owned both contractors saws and cabinet saws but no hybred. There is really no comparison between them in my opinion

You can have a work horse or a pony, the choice is yours. My advice is the 1023, it will serve you forever and cut virtually anything you want given a 10 inch blade. The fence is much better, 3 hp motor will humm through thick hardwoods, and once it is tuned it will hold that set up for a long time and it will be much easier to work on. It has heavier everything from trunions to the fence. For $300, I would not buy the lesser saw unless that extra really stretches your budget.

Harley

[Steve Rybicki]

Thanks Harley,


I It has heavier everything from trunions to the fence.
Harley

This is the part that has me wondering the most. These saws ship within 30 lbs of each other. With the 1023's heavier motor and fence, it appears that the rest of the saws must be darn near identical in weight. I get the impressions that the 0487 is very similar except motor size and fence weight.

About the thickest thing I ever cut on a table saw is 5/4 hardwood. If the 2 hp motor on 220v can handle this with no problem, then I'm not really concerned with having more power - unless it brings some other advantage - like smoother cuts or something tangible I can easily see.

[scott spencer]

From the perspective of design and construction, the 1023 (or any industrial cabinet saw) is simply a more robust machine. There's considerably more mass in the trunnions, and of course additional hp never hurts.

I've used some old Craftmsan saws from the 80s, the Griz 1023, and the Craftsman 22124 hybrid, but the not the G0478. I found the hybrid to be a noticeable upgrade to the old Craftsman contractor saws, and the 1023 will be even more so. The 1023 obviously has more power and mass than the hybrid, but once once the saw is setup and dialed in, there's nothing I've NOT been able to cut on the hybrid with good blade selection...I've cut some hardwoods to full blade height. The 1023 has more power and will be more forgiving of blade choice, sharpness, and alignment, and the feedrate will be faster, but you won't be able to tell which saw the piece was cut on. The 1023 has every advantage except for cost and electrical requirements, but if the additional cost pushes it out of range, a good hybrid is an excellent choice for a hobbyist IMHO.

It's an executive decision you'll have to make, and even though I'm very happy with my hybrid, you should at least ponder how much the cost difference will mean to you a few months down the road vs the difference in the machines. You could always sell off parts of your old Craftsman saw on an auction site for more than you might think.
1023:
http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g1023s_det1.jpg
G0478:
http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g0478_det4.jpg

Good luck,
Scott

[Harley Lewis]

Steve, you will be able to cut most anything with the 2 hp hybred, my old contractors saw is 1.5 and it has cut and cut, just a bit slower. I never realized the differences between the cabinet saw and the other one until I got it -- and even though it still just cuts wood, it is quicker, easier, and much more handy for me. I have a uni, with the 52 inch unifence and goodness me it is nice to be able to do things setting up for a cut that takes seconds where in the past it took several minutes and often with less than accurate results. The 1023 will be a lifetime purchase, but so might the hybred. Again, I found differences substantial, but it is your choice to make. The hybred will probably do any cut you want to make, but the 1023 is just a better saw and probably easier to use, especially with the bies clone fence.

[Steve Rybicki]

Holy smokes! I guess a picture is worth a 1000 words and then some. The difference is startling. I have to wonder how these saws can weight near the same. That convinced me that I will be able to feel the difference. I guess a new 1023 is about to be on order. Thanks guys.


1023:
http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g1023s_det1.jpg
G0478:
http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g0478_det4.jpg

Good luck,
Scott

[Chuck Lenz]

Knowing what I know now after 22 years of woodworking, unless your a cabinet shop or a custom woodworker actually makeing a liveing from it you don't need a full blown cabinet saw. If your rich and have the money, great, buy one. But it's not necessary. Things in this country are going towards cheap imports, furniture has gone that way, woodwork in homes also. Sure it would be nice to think that all of us could make a liveing doing this, but in all reality if your not in the right area of the country, it's nothing but a dream and you will beat yourself up trying, and so will what you think are potential customers. But then again if you don't own a cabinet saw your fellow woodworkers won't take your attempt at woodworking seriously. It's all a fad that I bought into years ago, I enjoyed it for alot of years, but now I'm wore out and geting tired of it. I only make things for my wife and I and maybe a occassional gift to a family member. I don't build things for anyone else expecting to come out on it labor wise. I have alot of money invested in tools over those years, and frankly I'm glad I didn't spend more. Sometimes I wish I had never spent it at all. I don't look forward to going out to the shop and doing things like I use too. A new cabinet saw may make you feel like your one one of the big boys, but it's not going to turn you into Norm overnight.

[Steve Rybicki]

Chuck, I understand your point of view. I did manage with a Craftsman saw for over 20 years and realize what I can and can't do with it. I actually used a 3 hp Delta in a woodworking class I took after high school, but that was about 35 years ago and I can't remember much about it.

I don't work with wood as a profession and I don't expect to make money off anything I make. I do however, save a lot when I make things instead of paying someone else to make them for me. I saved about $8,000 on the last set of kitchen cabinets I made. I'm also probably unlike most people on this forum. I don't woodwork to relax. I do it because I'm a do-it-yourselfer. Sometimes, it's worth money to have things go easier or more quickly. I can justify paying more when it will potentially save me some headaches.

After seeing the photos showing the difference in construction, I'm inclined to look at it the following way. I'll probably use this machine for the next 25 years, so at $250 more, that's only $10 per year over the contractor-type saw. Even if I don't notice the benefits of more power and heavier construction, that's not risking too much. I'm also guessing when the day comes to sell it, it'll bring in a bit more than a hybrid saw would. It seems like a good way to go.

[Chuck Lenz]

Steve, I've have had a Delta Contractors saw with a Unifence and a mobile base since 1995, I bought it new and it's been a good saw even after all the years of cutting. A couple years ago I wired the motor for 230 volts and put on a Fenner Drives PowerTwist link belt and wished I had done both right away when I bought the saw, made a big difference. But if thats your plan and your stuck on a cabinet saw this is what I would do, not that you have to listen, but I think I'd be looking for a used Unisaw with a Beisemeyer fence or a Unifence. I'll allways favor American made machinery over an import and if your looking at resale down the road I don't think you could find better. Keep your eye out, there are used Unisaws out there that pop up occasionally that came from someones hobby shop that probably don't have alot of miles on it. Ones from a proffessional cabinet shop I'd be a little leary of, more than likely have alot of miles on them and may need parts. Good luck in whatever decision you make.

[Tim Lynch]

Chuck,

I replaced the motor on my 90s vintage Sears contractor saw with a 220V 3HP Lincoln motor that I bought off ebay for around $100 delivered. I then replaced the fence w/ a Delta T2 when Amazon was selling them for $125. It's no cabinet saw, but those 2 changes made a world of difference for now.

Tim

[glenn bradley]

A quick and dirty fix might be to buy a used contractor saw for around $100, keep the motor and scrap the saw. I can find used saws cheaper than motors, it seems.

[Steve Rybicki]

..., but I think I'd be looking for a used Unisaw with a Beisemeyer fence or a Unifence. I'll allways favor American made machinery over an import and if your looking at resale down the road I don't think you could find better. Keep your eye out, there are used Unisaws out there that pop up occasionally that came from someones hobby shop that probably don't have alot of miles on it.

I thought about that, and maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I can't find anything in that category that is used. The real problem is that I can't wait around. I need a saw to finish what I was working on when it broke. I've already been looking at options for a week and I've got to get something. If anyone has a lead on such a critter, I'm all ears.

----------

I replaced the motor on my 90s vintage Sears contractor saw with a 220V 3HP Lincoln motor that I bought off ebay for around $100 delivered. I then replaced the fence w/ a Delta T2 when Amazon was selling them for $125.
I tried that route too. All I could find were a couple used motors that were going for over $100, and for all I know, they were about at the end of their life.

-------------


A quick and dirty fix might be to buy a used contractor saw for around $100, keep the motor and scrap the saw. I can find used saws cheaper than motors, it seems.

Yep, I tried looking for that too. I'm in a fairly rural area and used saws don't pop up much. Shipping anything in is cost prohibitive and waiting for one to become available is not something I really want to do.

[Matt Meiser]

I'm suprised the shipping weights are so close since the 1023 is so much beefier as can be seen in the above pictures. I wonder where the weight is in the hybrid? I don't think you can go wrong with a 1023. They've been around a long time and I can't remember reading anything but good about them from people who actually own them. I've seen an older one "under the hood" that a guy in our club bought and it is certainly a beefy machine. If you are buying new, unless you buy a General, you are buying from the same place regardless of brand as far as I've seen.

[Benjamin Dahl]

Steve, what part of the country are you in? this is listed in the Atlanta craigslist (not mine): http://atlanta.craigslist.org/tls/385137192.html
Ben

[Steve Rybicki]

Ben, I'm in upstate NY. I've checked Craigslist for the couple cities within reasonable driving distance and there's nothing too attractive being offered. If I hadn't waited until my saw broke, I wouldn't be so pressured to do something and I could wait for a good used saw to pop up.

[Chuck Lenz]

Steve did you check the plug and the wire or maybe even the outlet to see if your even geting power to the motor ?

[Clint Winterhalter]

Would you enjoy a 1023 YES..
Would you enjoy (Could you get by with) a GO478 YES.
You could even pick up a replacement motor and fix / upgrade your saw.

A couple of things worth considering:
Do you have 220 power available in your shop / garage? 1023 needs 220 power. (It cost me about $150 to get it set up when I bought my new saw / Shop Fox W1677 its a 1023 with white paint)
How much would you have to sink into the old saw to get it the way you want it?Rough guess $100-$200 for the motor, another $125-280 for a new fence depending on what flavor of you pick. Does your current CMan have cast or stamped steel wings? My old CMan saw started life with Stamped steel wings. My shop is my garage. My table saw gets moved every time I use it. I'm the first to admit that I pulled it around by the stamped steel wings from time to time. It didn't help them stay flat.. Trust me.
Here a quick list of what I did to my old Cman:
$160 for two cast iron wings from Roebuck central. The cast wings were better, but they weren't solid cast. They were webbed.
Vega Fence Bes-clone $279 from Rockler
New metal crank handles $29 from the Roebuck (traded up from the plastic junk that came on the saw when I broke one)
Power Twist Belt $30 at Rockler (reduces vibration)After all my improvements, the trunnion started to WANDER.

I spent $500 on upgrade goodies for a saw I purchase for $500 when I bought it. Granted when I bought the saw, I had pretty much rubbed my last to nickels together to get it.

At the end of the day you have to be happy with what you pick. Did I need a cabinet saw. No, I too got by for years with out one. Thankfully I made it fit in my budget. Now if I can just convince the LOML that a free standing shop and slider are in the budget;)

Let us know what road you take, be careful you don't sink to much $ into your Old CMan! (My brother inlaw really enjoys my old Cman. I gave it to him so he doesn't seem to mind adjusting the trunnion, GO FIGURE!)

Good Luck!

Clint

[Robert Conner]

Steve how far from NYC are you?
There have been a couple of Unisaws on LI in the $800-900 range. Unifence etc. How large is your workshop? The cabinet saws actually take up less room then the Contractor saws.
Robert

[Benjamin Dahl]

Steve, I figured you might have looked at C-list but you never know what you will find. Your urgency will dictate your decision and I think your reasoning for spending a bit more is sound; not much of a difference in the long run. I have not used either of the saws you mention so I can't speak of their quality but both look nice. The 1023 seems to have a variety of packages to choose from. Let us know what you decide.
Ben

[Noah Katz]

"Even if I don't notice the benefits of more power and heavier construction, that's not risking too much. "

You'll notice the latter in quietness, less vibration, and a more substantial feel.

It might not cut the wood any better but it it's just more enjoyable to use; I'm speaking as one who went from an old Craftsman (w/heavy cast carriage and trunnion) to a PM2000.

[Chuck Lenz]

Just for reference there is a left tilt Unisaw with a 50" Beisemeyer they are asking $1200, advertised as only used in a hobby shop here in Bismarck, North Dakota. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c89/Woodchuck_/UNISAW.jpg

[Steve Rybicki]

Steve did you check the plug and the wire or maybe even the outlet to see if your even geting power to the motor ?

Chuck, it actually hums when turned on. The first time it did this, I gave the blade a push and it started up. The next time I tried to start it, it still hummed, but wouldn't start up with a push. That is when I disassembled it, cleaned it and put it back together. I didn't see any obvious problems, though I have very little knowledge on motors. That didn't fix the problem, but it does still hum. It has been oiled regularly in the oil fittings.

There used to be a small shop in town that fixed motors and sold them. They went out of business and there's nothing like that near hear anymore. It would be nice to get it going long enough to find a good used machine or at least ponder getting a brand new one.

[Steve Rybicki]

Steve how far from NYC are you?
There have been a couple of Unisaws on LI in the $800-900 range. Unifence etc. How large is your workshop? The cabinet saws actually take up less room then the Contractor saws.
Robert

Robert, I'm on the other side of the state, south of Buffalo. What is LI? My workshop is 25' x 30' and I have 220 circuits so that stuff isn't a problem.

[Chuck Lenz]

I'm not real knowledgeable about motors either but I wonder if it isn't the capacitor on the outside of the motor. Anyone else got a idea ?

[scott spencer]

I'm not real knowledgeable about motors either but I wonder if it isn't the capacitor on the outside of the motor. Anyone else got a idea ?

Not a motor expert either but it sounds like it could be a bad starter cap, which is a cheap and easy fix. Sometimes the centrifugal switch sticks too, but I doubt that pushing it would make it run if that were the case....that's a free and easy fix... :)

....I assume "LI" is Long Island, some 400 miles east of Steve...

[Tim Lynch]

I'm in upstate too... just north of Binghamton. It's probably too far to drive for you but, you're welcome to the motor that I took off my Craftsman... the motor says model 820030, 120V 13A. It's probably 1 HP at best, although of course the saw says 3HP developed, etc.

The ebay guy I bought my new motor off currently has this for sale:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-2-HP-Electric-Motor-Single-Phase-115-208-230-VAC_W0QQitemZ130138344607QQihZ003QQcategoryZ26226Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I talked to him and he says they take them off new compressor assemblies (for some reason) and sell them... he may have other motors available immediately.

[Steve Rybicki]

It does make sense that it may be the capacitor. I'll order one and give it a try. Thanks for everyone's suggestions.

[Don Bullock]

... be careful you don't sink to much $ into your Old CMan! ...
Good Luck!

Clint

As a former c-man owner, I fully agree with Clint on this one. I checked on the "value of my 1979 vintage C-man and they were going for about $100 and mine was in excellent shape. It just wasn't worth putting money into it. I can't believe how easy it is to work with a table saw with a good fence and wings that are actually in the same plane as the table top.:D If you're just replacing a small pert to get it to work while you search for ather alternatives, that's one thing, but sinking hundreds into a saw that's not worth a $100 isn't a good idea in my opinion.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Knowing what I know now after 22 years of woodworking, unless your a cabinet shop or a custom woodworker actually makeing a liveing from it you don't need a full blown cabinet saw. If your rich and have the money, great, buy one. But it's not necessary. Things in this country are going towards cheap imports, furniture has gone that way, woodwork in homes also. Sure it would be nice to think that all of us could make a liveing doing this, but in all reality if your not in the right area of the country, it's nothing but a dream and you will beat yourself up trying, and so will what you think are potential customers. But then again if you don't own a cabinet saw your fellow woodworkers won't take your attempt at woodworking seriously. It's all a fad that I bought into years ago, I enjoyed it for alot of years, but now I'm wore out and geting tired of it. I only make things for my wife and I and maybe a occassional gift to a family member. I don't build things for anyone else expecting to come out on it labor wise. I have alot of money invested in tools over those years, and frankly I'm glad I didn't spend more. Sometimes I wish I had never spent it at all. I don't look forward to going out to the shop and doing things like I use too. A new cabinet saw may make you feel like your one one of the big boys, but it's not going to turn you into Norm overnight.


Chuck, I like a lot of what you say here. It's from a voice of an experienced woodworker and makes a LOT of sense to me. Thanks for sharing. Alan

[Eugene A. Manzo III]

I am with the other guys on the hum. I repaired some motors with an old
motor repairman a few years ago and the majority had capacitor probs.
Most motors had a starting and run winding in them. so at dead stop usually a centrifugal swith would make up a set of contacts to set it to the starting windings. When the motor developed rpms the windings would then be swithed to the run mode. Check your starter Capacitor and your centrifigul switch. And also purchase the dam cabinet saw dont be so tight.

[Steve Rybicki]

If you're just replacing a small pert to get it to work while you search for ather alternatives, that's one thing, but sinking hundreds into a saw that's not worth a $100 isn't a good idea in my opinion.

That's why I didn't spend $100 on a used motor. I'm just trying to get it running so I can take my time to see if I can find a good used cabinet saw. If something doesn't pop up within a few weeks, I'll be getting the Griz. It will also make it easier to give it away if it runs. The capacitor is going to cost $18 and believe me, I didn't want to spend even that small amount on this saw.

[scott spencer]

That's why I didn't spend $100 on a used motor. I'm just trying to get it running so I can take my time to see if I can find a good used cabinet saw. If something doesn't pop up within a few weeks, I'll be getting the Griz. It will also make it easier to give it away if it runs. The capacitor is going to cost $18 and believe me, I didn't want to spend even that small amount on this saw.

$18 is cheap for a TS repair, but expensive for a capacitor. If you've got an electriconics supply or surplus nearby, and are comfortable swapping the part yourself, you should be able to pick a cap with the same values for a few bucks.

[Steve Rybicki]

Unfortunately, nothing like that near me. I absolutely hate buying parts from sears. They always rip you off on the price and shipping charges, but I couldn't find one on ebay and my quick web search didn't turn up anything either. I already paid for it, so I'm been officially ripped off on this one.

[Art Walker]

I already paid for it, so I'm been officially ripped off on this one.

Don't sweat it. If you found the right sized cap on the bay for $5 the shipping would have been another $5. If you'd gone to the now-nearest motor shop it would have been $7 plus your gas and time. [I was at my local surplus gizmos place yesterday, and the entire section of motor sized capacitors was...gone. whoops.] You didn't spend $50 on a used motor. Then look back at the bulk of this thread, with various respondents inadvertently directing you toward a new saw for $500-1500, or toward various *really nice* possibilities in used saws. No, you've done fine,
as long as you keep flesh intact once the repair is complete.

Art

[Noah Katz]

"Not a motor expert either but it sounds like it could be a bad starter cap, which is a cheap and easy fix. Sometimes the centrifugal switch sticks too, but I doubt that pushing it would make it run if that were the case....that's a free and easy fix... "

Could be the cap, and a non-contacting start switch causes the identical issue.

I had a non-sealed motor on my CM and I often had to start the motor by hand, to get the centrifugally-actuated contacts to open, and then blow out the dust w/compressed air.

[Greg Peterson]

I find myself in the same situation regarding the TS. As a hobbyist I can't justify spending thousands on one tool. However, I can not justify the expense of trying to soup up a tool that in the end will still be a compromise. For a little more I can get a tool that should meet my expectations and last me longer than I need it to last.

I'm just biding my time till the riving knives start rolling out onto the showroom floors. I really like the PM2000 but I'll wait until Delta, Jet and Grizzly have their versions on the market.

In the meanwhile, I have DC to acquire and install a heating unit. That should keep my pocket empty for the next six to nine months.

[Steve Rybicki]

Just for those who may search and find this thread. The capacitor did not correct the problem. There may be some other small part that if replaced, would fix it, but I'll never know because I'm not going to throw another penny at this saw. I'm going to an auction this weekend that supposedly has table saws for sale, though I don't know what kind. If nothing pans out on that, then I'm definitely ordering a new saw next week.

Anyway, I do appreciate the help and suggestions that everyone gave on this.