Another Smoother Thread

[Michael Schwartz]

I am having a real hard time deciding between the LN low angle smoother, and the LV, Bevel Up Smoother. I like some of the inovative features of the LV, but I am equaly as tempted by the LN.

Somebody here has to have both of them :rolleyes:

I have the LN low angle jack and I absolutely love it, works great as a smoother, but it is a bit long. It is both minimalist and very complex at the same time. Better than any of my Stanley's no matter how much I fettle them

I like the knob and tote of the LN better, then the LV.

I think the LN might have a better iron, with the cryogenically treated A2 blade

Whatever it is I am looking for the ultimate smoother for that final pass, I like the versitility of a Low Angle Plane for the variety of angles they can be setup with, and with the adjustible mouth, how tight you can set the throat opening.

As nice as the Saint James Bay, Marcou, and Hotely smoothers are supposed to be, I just can't afford one, and I am not good enough for one either.

[Fred Gross]

Since you are talking "final pass", have you give any thought to a scraper plane or just a regular card scraper? The LN scraper planes are very adjustable and are easier on the hands than a card scraper, but both leave an excellent surface.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Michael--from your message, I would suggest fr you to get the LN.

I wouldn't select one mainly for the iron, though. In fact, I would near always opt for an O1, but that's my preference. As regards Cyro/non-cyro, having had both I find zero functional/longevity difference.

Also consider Fred's suggestion. While it won't be taking the place of a smoother, sometimes it is the quickest way to smooth there is.

Take care, Mike

[Michael Schwartz]

Just finished cutting my first hand cut dovetail :rolleyes: actualy turned out decent.

I am planning on getting a scraper plane at some point in the future. I agree that it is simple and foolproof when a plane just isn't doing the trick. Of for some woods a necessity.

I think in the mean time I will just have to become proficient with a card scraper.

The LN also has a thicker blade than the LV BUS.

Any thoughts on the LN 604 vs the LN Low Angle Smoother? I am thinking of gettting that with a high angle frog. Mabey the LN 604-1/2 as the extra weight could only help things.

As far as my Stanley bench planes go I have a good user 3, a nice 4, a real old 4-1/2 that has potential, a great 5, and a good user 6.

I am probably going to upgrade the blades in some of my stanelys, at least get one I could use in either my 4-1/2 or 6, and one I could use in either my 4 or 5.

[Doug Shepard]

Am I right in thinking that Derek Cohen (I think it was him?) had a review somewhere that did a side-by-side comparison on these two?

[Randy Klein]

I don't have the LN LA Smoother, but I do have their LA Block. I had the LV BU Smoother as well (not anymore though, different story).

The LV has 2 features that I really liked over the LN: lateral set screws and mouth adjustment set screw and ease of adjustment.

The easy mouth adjustment and set screw is really nice since you can pop open the mouth real fast and blow out the dust and chips, then close it right back to the original position. The LN mouth (same as the block) is not as slick.

However, the LN is not coffin shaped, so can be used for shooting. But if you already have a shooting plane (LN LA jack) than this won't be a worry for you.

Also, the LV can come with O1 blade. I once read by someone more knowledgeable than me that A2 is smooth, O1 is smoother.

[Michael Schwartz]

Ok so based on the advice from the previous posts, I am leaning twords the LN for quality of cut, with exception to the fact that the LV BUS has a 01 blade, and the LV for the more inovative features over the LN.

For One I think the LN has the best Knob and Tote. Although I have never picked up a LV so I am going by looks, and my eyes are used to the traditional Stanely design. Can anybody commment on the ergnomics, feel and the Knob and Tote of the LV BUS.

O1 vs A2 for a finish smoother, I prefer A2 irons because they take a great edge and hold them, and never get really dull like my stanelys tend to do.

I have heard 01 will take a finer edge, is this a universal fact, or is it based on sharpening methods. I use diamond stones for courser grits, and then a nornton 4000-8000 combo stone, and strop on green chronium oxide compound, or .5 micron microfinishing film.

Which will leave the best surface, and take the finest of shavings.

The LN 4 or 4-1/2 with 50 degree frog
The LN Low Angle Smoother set up with a 50 degree combined angle
The LV BUS set up with a 50 degree combined angle and with an 01 blade.

I saw a picture in some review of the LV BUS of a caliper mesuring a shaving and reading .0000

If I get the LV BUS, over the LN 4-1/2 I could afford extra blades for the BUS, my LN Low angle jack, and LN or LV blades for some of my Stanley's.

[James Owen]

Just finished cutting my first hand cut dovetail :rolleyes: actualy turned out decent.

I am planning on getting a scraper plane at some point in the future. I agree that it is simple and foolproof when a plane just isn't doing the trick. Of for some woods a necessity.

I think in the mean time I will just have to become proficient with a card scraper.

The LN also has a thicker blade than the LV BUS.

Any thoughts on the LN 604 vs the LN Low Angle Smoother? I am thinking of gettting that with a high angle frog. Mabey the LN 604-1/2 as the extra weight could only help things.

As far as my Stanley bench planes go I have a good user 3, a nice 4, a real old 4-1/2 that has potential, a great 5, and a good user 6.

I am probably going to upgrade the blades in some of my stanelys, at least get one I could use in either my 4-1/2 or 6, and one I could use in either my 4 or 5.

Congratulations on your first hand-cut dovetails; they're fun to do and they will only get better with practice!

Planes for final smoother: my preferance is a wider and heavier plane with an adjustable mouth, so my recommendation would be for the LN #4½ or the LN #5½. (I have both of these planes, and they both make superb smoothers.) One advantage to a #4½ or #5½ is that you can buy either (or both) of the available HA frogs, and they will also fit the #6 and #7, should you acquire either or both of those (LN) planes at some point in the future.

Much of this is personal preference. If you decide to go with a somewhat lighter plane, the LN #4 in either bronze or iron will also make a very nice final smoother (and the #4 HA frog also fits the LN #5). The bronze version is, of course, a bit heavier, and, if you live in a high-humidity area, has the additional advantage of not having to worry about rust on the casting. (LV makes very nice, high-quality planes; my preference is for the LN.)

With your vintage Stanleys, give some consideration to doing a good tune-up on the #4½ and the #6 (the others as well, but particularly these two). A well-tuned pre-WWII #4½ with a tight mouth and a sharp iron will do amazing things peeling angel-hair shavings off some pretty gnarly-grained woods. Although it is a much-maligned size here in the US, I find a well-tuned #6 makes an exquisite panel plane, capable of planing a lovely finish on even the most recalcitrant woods.

Just a few thoughts for your consideration.

[Randy Klein]

The LN 4 or 4-1/2 with 50 degree frog
The LN Low Angle Smoother set up with a 50 degree combined angle
The LV BUS set up with a 50 degree combined angle and with an 01 blade.

I had the LV BUS and returned it for a LN 4-1/2. Nothing against the LV plane, I thought it was great. I just didn't become a fan of the BU design of planes for a few reasons:
1. requires maintaining a larger camber to achieve the same shaving thickness as a traditional plane
2. the wear bevel seems to have a greater impact sooner
3. I like the higher center of gravity than the BU's lower center
4. I like the Bailey style adjuster vs the norris

Of course I trade away the ability to hone a higher bevel angle for difficult wood, but like mentioned before, a different frog or back bevels can do the same.

[Barry Vabeach]

Mike, there is no real proof that A-2 will always outlast O-1 if you spend some time here http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/bladetest.html

you will learn a lot. For example, the LN 0-1 in a 62 showed the most amount of wear of any blade, OTOH, he noted that it works extremely well when worn. The Knight 0-1 showed less wear than the Shepherd A-2. Also check out his pages on sharpening. While I like bevel up planes, I do worry, without a shred of support for this assumption, that all things being equal a BU will require more time sharpening than a BD because whether it is BU or BD the most wear will be on the bottom and on a BD you will sharpen away the wear when you work on the bevel but that is not the case when using a BU plane - unless you continually put a back bevel on the BU plane. Barry

[Mike K Wenzloff]

I've read Brent's work before.

A BU bedded at 12 degrees will require more effort and time to fully sharpen than a plane bedded at 20/25 degrees and so on. It has to do with the lower wear bevel characteristics. That's using the same iron (or iron characteristics) in each plane.

A2 will abrade more slowly. It's the whole cyro/non-cyro thing I see little value in.

Take care, Mike

[Michael Schwartz]

I was not aware what a wear bevel was, I had a vauge idea that the wood might abrade the back of a bevel down plane. I think I will add a back micro bevel to my LN low angle jack.

I think I have decided on the LV BUS, I might eventualy get LN 4-1/2, but in the mean time I am going to work on my Stanley 4-1/2, which is a type 9 and I think it shows promise. Its definatly a user, japaning is shot, rear tote is a replacement, minor chip out of the back corner of one of the sides of the casting, but I think I can make this sucker preform.

I like a few of the features in the LV BUS over the LN, for one I like the mouth adjustment screw. I can't tell you how many times I have gone to adjust the mouth on my LN and ran it right into the freshly honed blade.

If the Tote really bothers me I will just reshape it a bit. Another chance to use my #50 patternmakers rasp with a custom handle I made out of cherry. (Honestly I think Cocobolo is ugly and the look of Rosewood belongs with a stanely :rolleyes: )

I am thinking of building a couple of Krenov style planes, I am probably going to start with the Hock kit and spend the time shaping it nicely and making it work right before I start from scratch.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Both surfaces of any cutting tool abrade in use. The lower angle combined with fiber springback affects them to a greater degree.

But all that is moot if one is aware and sharpens fully. I think the trade-offs are fine.

Take care, Mike

[Andrew Homan]

I am thinking of building a couple of Krenov style planes, I am probably going to start with the Hock kit and spend the time shaping it nicely and making it work right before I start from scratch.

Hi Michael,
I think that you can go ahead and start from scratch -- if I did, you can too. If you have any questions, I know someone local whom you can ask!
-Andy
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s142/ADHoman/Hornbeam1.jpg

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Mike,

I think either is OK. I have the Lv BU smoother and I like it. The only thing you may have to change is the way you use the plane. It seems that you have stanley planes with the more traditional angled tote the LV BU has a more upright tote. Don't be put off by the differnce in feel when you get it. At first you might (might, I say) feel you made a mistake as it feels different to the stanley totes. Just remember that the plane is designed to let the weight of the plane do the work and Derek's reviews show this also. What I found is that if I drop my elbow of my pushing arm a tad more horizontal and just push it through with some weight on the front then it's great. Just slides through. Just a slight ergonomics adjustment. I was in the same boat as you. LN or LV. went for the LV and was a bit worried when I first got it but I love all my LV BU planes now. Once you get the BU smotther going it actually feel quite manouverable and light on the wood but is actually quite a heavy plane.

Good luck

Robert

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

I looked at the LN options and the LV optioons..

Then I just said, I was worth it and got this...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/No.jpg

Oh the Madness!!:cool:

[Dominic Greco]

I looked at the LN options and the LV options..Then I just said, I was worth it and got this...Oh the Madness!!:cool:

Was it really necessary to pull out the big guns? :D

Geez Jim, that plane is downright gorgeous!:eek:

[Derek Cohen]

=Michael Schwartz;631222]I am having a real hard time deciding between the LN low angle smoother, and the LV, Bevel Up Smoother. I like some of the inovative features of the LV, but I am equaly as tempted by the LN. ..............

I think the LN might have a better iron, with the cryogenically treated A2 blade

Whatever it is I am looking for the ultimate smoother for that final pass, I like the versitility of a Low Angle Plane for the variety of angles they can be setup with, and with the adjustible mouth, how tight you can set the throat opening..........

Hi Michael

I have both LN and LV planes, in about equal numbers. The LN planes are traditional designs constructed with precision. The LV planes are innovative and an example of function first and form second. Both work excellently.

As a rule of thumb, LN make the better BD (bench) planes, while LV make the better BU (low angle) planes.

The choice of BU verses BD is a really personal one. For me it is a matter of "feel". The BU planes have a lower centre of gravity/effort and this contributes to a greater sense of immediacy (for me). Some BD planes also manage a low centre of gravity, such as the HNT Gordon woodies. These are low slung. Also razeee designs. The higher centre of gravity of the Stanley/LN BD planes lend a more "clinical" feel (again, this is my subjective experience), and this has an advantage when gauging whether the plane is vertical. So BU or BD - this is really a choice based on personal style. For example, I have both the LN #4 1/2 and the LV BUS. They are totally different planes. Both can perform superbly. You will prefer one over the other.

The general advantage of BU planes is their versatility with cutting angles. The general advantage of BD planes is that they create less of a wear bevel and can go longer between honings. The latter is not as significant as it at first appears (but a topic for another time).

The planes:

Other than being BU planes, the LN #164 and the LV BUS are completely different designs and not comparable. The #164 is a #4 size while the BUS is a #4 1/2 size.

A fairer comparison is the LN #164 and the LV LA Smoother (LAS). These are both descendents from the Stanley #164. Both are good planes with equal quality finish (although the LN is a little nicer looking with the brass) but the LAS is the better design and user. A few points: the LV has much better blade adjustment, is also fine tuned with set screws, has a slightly longer nose for registration, and the mouth adjustment is also much more advanced in design with an preset option. The only area in which the LN scores is the design of its tote (I rebuilt my LV's). Both are great on a shooting board, but only the LV actually offers a finger grip for this purpose (the indents on the side).

Here is my review of the LAS: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/LVLAS/index.asp

And Lyn Mangiameli's comparison of the LAS and #164: http://www.traditionaltools.us/LJM/lasmoother.htm

The LAS/#164 is a great allrounder, but the BUS is a dedicated smoother and, in this disguise, is in a class of its own. I did compare the LAS with the BUS in the BUS review:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/LVbevelUpSmoother/index.asp

With regard LN vs LV blades, I would doubt that you could tell the difference, if there is any. Certainly, the LV blades are arguably the best finished on the market at present.

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wilbur Pan]

How about this for a non-answer:

Any smoother will give you a better planed surface than not having a smoother. ;)

I'd get the Lie-Nielsen if you are on the fence. eBay history shows that you'll be able to sell it for very close to retail if you decide you're not happy with it.

[Michael Schwartz]

I looked at the LN options and the LV optioons..

Then I just said, I was worth it and got this...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/No.jpg

Oh the Madness!!:cool:

That picture has me drooling all over my keyboard :cool:

[Wilbur Pan]

That picture has me drooling all over my keyboard :cool:
Yes, Jim has a habit of doing that.

Post a picture of one of his planes -- drool.

Chisels -- drool.

New tool cabinet he made -- drool.

Jim, I hope someday to meet you in person, so I can have the pleasure of seeing your workshop and tools in person, after which I'll hand you an invoice for the replacement of several computer keyboards. ;)

[Randy Klein]

I looked at the LN options and the LV optioons..

Then I just said, I was worth it and got this...



Oh the Madness!!:cool:

That may be a nice plane, but you should try to clean up all those funny looking rust spots near the bottom...;)

[Brad Olson]

I have both the BUS and LN HAF 4 1/2.

95% of the time I use the BUS because it works a bit better than the LN and is easier to adjust on the fly (especially mouth opening). The BUS is also much more versatile since I have 3 different irons.

I mainly use the LN when I need a smoother to register at 90 degrees (to the sides) which is unusual.

Overall I prefer to lower center of gravity on the BUS, especially when smoothing dovetails after trimming them down. The LN works for this operation, but is prone to chattering a bit more than I would like in harder woods such as jatoba, paduak, bloodwood and purpleheart (and other exotics). The BUS with the 60 degree blade on the other hand sails right though without chattering. The BUS also has the advantage that I can tweak the mouth opening on the fly very easily to fit each wood type properly for the transition between endgrain and long grain on the dovetails.

If you are a worried about iron wear than you are not using a smoother properly. A smoother should be re-honed frequently on a 8000 stone to maintain an optimal edge. I'm not talking 20 minutes of sharpening, but just a few swipes on a 8000 grit stone to maintain the edge properly. If you have to use a stone coarser than 4000, then you either are not ready for the smoother yet or you are over using your edge.

If you use primarily cherry and maple you would probably not notice any difference between the BUS and the LN HAF except in curly maple.

Oh, I also like the BUS because you can plane against the grain without tearout. I can't do this with the LN HAF without a near perfect iron.

At the end of the day, I would find someone with both planes, and try them out and see which one works better for you. This is MUCH more important that what I think :)!!!!

If not both LN and LV have generous return policies, so you could buy both and keep the one you like best.

As to using srcraper planes, yes they are nice, but for me a well tuned smooth plane is faster and easier to use than a scraper or scraper plane. However, scraper planes (which I have too many of by the way) are best for the most difficult of situations. My favorite scraper plane is the little LN 212 bronze plane as it fits well in difficult situations.