Workbench purchase question

[Allan Brown]

I'm new to this forum, and have been trying to navigate the various forums/threads to find an answer so I wouldn't have to ask a likely overdone question.

I'm curious if anyone has had experience with the Garrett Wade cabinetmaker bench (with built-in cabinet). It's on sale, and received less-than-glowing reviews in FWW late last year. My other option is the Deifenbach basic European model, but given the weight difference, I'd tend to favor the Wade.

Most of the others are too rich for me, e.g. Lie-Nielsen. The other curious one was by Grizzly (4" top - massive!), but the review said the undercarriage was weak.

At any rate, I would welcome any opinions.
Allan

[Rick Levine]

I did a lot of research on the subject earlier this year and finally decided on the Sjobergs from Woodcraft. I read the review in, I think, FWW and it rated it pretty high. The only negative they mentioned was the finish and when I received my bench the finish IMHO, was flawless.

[Allan Brown]

Thanks, Rick. I, too, was very close to buying the Sjoberg because it had a much heavier top (3" or so) than most of the others. Did you get the 2000 or 2500?

[Rick Levine]

I got the 2000. It was pleanty long for me, and welcome to the Creek. You'll find a lot of good information at this site.

[Steve Rowe]

Allan,
I have a Diefenbach bench. It is either the European or German model ( I can't remember which and my forgetter is working overtime). It is a solid bench with good vise hardware. I cannot provide any insight into the other models you mentioned.
Steve

[Rick Levine]

Allan, Steve,

I looked into the Diefenbach bench and even saw them at a local college woodworking class here in New Mexico. They are supposedly good benches but the ones I saw in the classroom were not up to the standards of my Sjobergs. Granted, the instructor told me that when the school received them they were stored in a metal storage container for a few months prior to bringing them in the shop but overall the Sjobergs, especially the two vises are better than the Diefenbach, IMHO.

[Fred Gross]

I picked up a Laguna Tools bench with cabinets up on the secondary market and I like it. The quality of the vises is good and they work well. The top did require some flattening (previous owner used it more as an assembly table than workbench), but that isn't unheard of for a bench.

[Alex Elias]

I got the sjoberg 2000 last year and I couldn't be happier. The finish was perfect for me (I did sand it with 400 grit and a bit of oil) it is smooooooth now before it felt fine anyway.
Keep in mind that you might not pay tax from Woodcraft depending where you live and most important the shipping whith WC was not based on weight so I paid I like to say about $50 for shipping.
Can't go wrong with it.
Regards,
Alex

[Alex Elias]

You might like to read this tread I created last year at a different forum about the work bench options. I hope it helps with your choice.
Good luck and let us know.
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2713019&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Regards

[Scot Ferraro]

FWW also did a review of several benches late last year/early this year -- I believe it was in the Tools & Shops edition.

Thanks,

Scot

[Allan Brown]

Alex,
This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. What a helpful group of folks! I'm glad I found this forum

[Gary Curtis]

If cost is your criterion, Harbor Freight just included a bench in their line. I believe it sells for $150 and is made of Maple. Not having seen it, their advertisement says it weighs 150lbs, which is getting in the ballpark.

I had a Sjoberg and sold it. Too flimsy.

Gary Curtis:D

[Allan Brown]

Cost is but a small factor. I would prefer to stay closer to $1,000, if possible, but not by sacrificing quality. I would gladly add another $500 -- for instance for the Sjoberg -- rather than "settle" for another, less-expensive bench that isn't going to perform well over the decades-long run I plan to have with it. I'm betting the Sjoberg you were unhappy with was one of their smaller, lighter units. All the reviews -- from FWW to the posts here -- indicate that the Elite 2000/2500 units are top of the line. And from what I've seen from Harbor Freight, too much of it (all of it?) is from China, and is flimsy from the get-go. If I can avoid buying from them, I will.
Thanks

[Maurice Ungaro]

For what it's worth, there's plenty to be said for making the bench yourself. More than a few members here have done that, and are more than willing to share plans, advice etc. It's one way of getting the bench you want, and getting it to your specs!;)

[Rick Levine]

Allan,

You are probably right about Gary's comment about the Sjobergs being too flimsy. My 2000 is definitely not flimsy. To the contrary, it is very substantial and quite well constructed.

[Allan Brown]

Rick,
I'm pretty much settled on the Sjoberg 2000...funny thing is it's the one I've wanted from day one, so I've just come full circle. I understand the points fellow Creekers have made about the inherent benefits of building one's own bench, however my interests run along the lines of hand-tools only, and I'm much happier with a handsaw, chisels and mallet than I am around a table saw, joiner, etc. One day I hope to build an 18th Century style secretary -- all by hand. It's not a religious thing, nor do I think it's "better" than other ways of working wood...it's simply what I prefer -- the satisfaction and the challenge. That being said, I just don't have the time or inclination to wrestle with timbers anymore than I want to forge my own chisels! My hat's off to those who do their own...from what I've seen, they should be extremely proud of their work.

On another note: I had a call into Grizzly this weekend asking if they had made any mods to their bench pursuant to the low rating received in FWW last year. I finally got a call back today saying that no design changes had been made -- or were planned -- but they would be happy to forward my comments to production for further review. I suggested that if anyone at Grizzly was paying attention to forums like these -- not to mention the various journals, magazines, etc. -- they would see their product needed some improvements.

Again, thanks to all you friendly folks who've helped me (almost) come to a decision. I'm convinced that it's almost as much fun figuring out what I want as actually getting it!
Allan

[Allan Brown]

Rick,
One final question for you...since the Sjoberg is the likely choice. Have you ever used any of the traditional, cast-iron holdfasts? If so, how do they work on your bench? Also, though the bench comes with a few dogs, I think I'll plan to make several out of maple with small tension springs.
Allan

[Rick Levine]

Allan,

I have only used the dogs that came with the bench, which are substantial, but will probably buy a hold fast or two sometime in the future. I've only had the bench a few months and haven't had the opportunity to put it to full use yet. I have done some planning with the vise though and it really holds well.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Allan, A warning for you about holdfasts. Do not buy the one that are made from cast iron like those sold by Woodcraft and most of the other catalog houses. Cast iron is likely to break the very first time you rap it hard to set it. Wrought iron, hand forged, or bent steel is the way to go if you intend to use a holdfast seriously. Good ones are made and sold by Tools for Working Wood, and by Phil Koontz up in Alaska. The TFWW holdfasts are quite inexpensive and made from quality steel. Phil's are had forged, effective, and works of art, but are more expensive.

[Allan Brown]

Excellent advice! I often wondered about the stresses inherent in the design of a holdfast and how well they held up -- and how damaging they might be to the bench. What's the nominal size for a 1" hole (as on the Sjoberg bench)? 15/16" or so?
Thanks again,
Allan

[Allan Brown]

Dave,
I just found a 7/8" holdfast in Japan Woodworker that has a solid steel rod, and a cast iron clamp arm. Would this work OK, seeing that the stresses are going to be primarily in the rod/bench hole? Is this the correct size for a 1" dog hole? I would rather do this than have to drill additional 3/4" holes to accomodate the TFWW variety.
Allan

[Dave Anderson NH]

I can't comment with any certainty about a holdfast made in 2 parts since I've not experienced them. Phil Koontz can probably make you one in almost any diameter. The normal ones both Phil and TFWW make are designed for .750" nominal diameter holes.

The stress and breakage usually comes near the "crook", not at the exit point from the dog hole.

Personally I'm one of those who doesn't like the Sjoberg benches. My experiences with both using and looking at them is that the vises sag and get knocked out of alignement because the guides are too flimsy, and that the undercarriage is prone to racking if you are planing hard with hand planes. The tops are well made on their top of the line models though. I'm also not thrilled with the large size of the dog holes which don't relate to any of the commonly available accessories from Lee Valley TFWW, or almost anyone else. My opinion of their products would improve if they even made the dog holes .750" like everyone else using round holes.

[Allan Brown]

I checked Phil's website out, but didn't specifically see a holdfast for sale. I guess I'll just contact him about it specifically.

You raise an intriguing question -- one that's puzzled me, and that's about the dia. Sjoberg uses for dog holes. I really didn't like the idea of round holes to begin with, thinking that I would prefer square. I'm curious to know what bench type you prefer. I've just been making do on a small bench, but need something that will handle heavy planing, mortising, etc. -- I'm using handtools exclusively, so I want a bench and vises that can stand heavy use and resist racking. I recall the FWW article specifically stating that the Sjoberg vises were very good, and resisted racking. Remember, I'm talking about the Elite 200/2500 series, not their cheaper, lighter Nordic series.

Soooo....what do you recommend? My budget now is up to $1,500, and I have thought about the Diefenbach benches from Germany, but there's been negative comments about those too, including the FWW article.
Awaiting your opinion....
Allan

[Rick Levine]

Allan,

No I haven't. I may buy some someday but I've found the metal dogs (four of them) that came with the bench has been sufficient. I have only put the bench to limited use so far. As my retirement approaches (222 days) I'll be using it more, I suspect. I have only just finished building the shop within the last 3 or so months.

[Bob Yarbrough]

check out Lee Valley's benches. They look very nick and have several options.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi again Allan. I am about to embark on replacing my 20+ year old "make do" bench. The wood for the undercarriage has been purchased and is in the process of drying (about another 2-3 months). I decided to make rather than buy since no bench on the market by any maker meets my rather specific needs. I'm primarily a hand tool woodworker who uses power stuff like planers and jointers only to rough prep my stock. I tend to hand plane all surfaces and do most of my joinery by hand. I also do a lot of work on irregular shapes so one of the prime requirements is a bench heavy enough to handle the 18" Emmert K1 patternmakers vise I'm going to install at between 85-90 pounds in weight. My prime face vise will be a twin screw with 24" between screws to handle carcass dovetailing and shaping windsor chair seats. With independently operating screws it will be able to rack slightly to handle tapered shapes. The Emmert will also be mounted as a face vise, but on the other side of the bench. I should also mention that I'm left handed so my setup will be reversed from that of most commercial benches. I've used rectangular dog holes in my current bench for years and will go to .750" round on the new bench. Round is just more versatile and is absolutely necessary if your going to make use of holdfasts. All of the bench legs will have dog holes in them for holdfast use and I'm also planning to incorporate a removable sliding board jack into the design.

[Allan Brown]

Hello, Dave,
Sounds like your experience has taught you exactly what you need. I'm obviously still groping about, but know enough that I don't want to spend the majority of my time building the thing I'm gonna use to build things with. But to each his/her own, eh?

I just got off the phone with Diefenbach and ordered the Traditional German (with kraut, no relish). Is just the size for my garage, has a tool trough that I know I will utilize, has sufficient weight to remain put, and has the mortised 3/4" dog squares. All-in-all, I think I'll be happy with it. I learned yesterday that they've closed the factory in Germany where these were built, so unless another investor buys it, that may be the end of Diefenbach benches...at least for a while. I asked about inventory reduction prices (she's already out of some models) but she apparently isn't hurting and is content to sit on them until she runs out.

It's always a lot of fun looking and dreaming...but now I can get down to more serious pursuits. I'm really glad I stumbled onto this forum, and enjoy getting to converse with industry folks like yourself (I just purchased one of your hammers through Steve Knight who's putting together a panel-raiser for me). I'd really to get a look at your bench when you get it together, and hope you don't mind me picking your brain from time-to-time. Once I'm more familiar with how I'll be working on the bench, I'll probably sink a 3/4" hole or two for a holdfast.

Again, thanks for your thorough and detailed responses to my questions.
Allan

[Dave Anderson NH]

You're welcome Allan. If it's the order I think it is, your hammer will ship tomorrow.:D Diefenbacher makes a very good bench in spite of the reviews in FWW. A friend of mine who owns a NH woodworking school has 2 or 3 different models and they've held up quite well in school use which is much more punishing than normal home use. I think you'll be quite pleased with the new bench. As for picking my brain....... wasn't there an actor named Slim Pickens?

[Wallis Hampson]

I am looking to purchase that same bench from Wade. What did FWW have to say about it as I didnt get the issue that it was in. I was really sold on it for several reasons. At 260 lbs for a 74" bench, it must have a very thick top and be substantially built. Also I like the stretcher placement high and low because it will be easy to remove the center shelf and insert a carcass for drawers.

[Allan Brown]

Wallis,
You can find the review at www.finewoodworking.com. Just do a search for "workbench review", and you'll find it under "Ready-Made Workbenches". If you don't already subscribe to the on-line version, it's only $4.95 per month, but you get current articles plus access to the archives of an ungodly amount of information dating back to the first issues -- not to mention videos that are really informative! Well worth it.

If you're talking about purchasing the Garrett-Wade bench, you might want to review this article, although I wouldn't take it as gospel. If I remember correctly, the Wade bench has one of the thinnest tops, but makes up for the weight with the cabinet. The top thickness isn't quoted on their website; I recall having to call customer service to get that information. Further, the bench is among the shortest at about 33-1/2", and several reviewers complained of backaches after using it (although this could be easily remedied by raising the bench). Better too low than too high. At any rate it's on sale for $1,200 including shipping. I opted for the Diefenbach at around $1,500 including shipping.
Allan

[louis haley]

I am new to sawmill creek but i am looking for a high end woodworking bench i have seen one that i would like to look at in a magazine it had a big green emblem on the front? i have looked on the web for days with no luck if any of you guys can steer me in the right direction i would thank you very much louis Haley

[Larry Conely]

I've had no experience with their benches, but have purchased stationary tools from Garrett Wade. I have found their customer support to be nonexistent and their technical support to be among the worst I have ever experienced. I would find another vender.

[richard poitras]

Check out the new American Wood Worker magazine the September copy it has a plan in it for a work bench using the adjust-a-bench leg set might be something to consider to have adjustable height / you can also by complete benchs from them to?

www.adjustabench.com

[Dave Anderson NH]

Louis, the bench you are talking about is an Ulmia. They went out of business about 3 years ago and then were reorganized and opened up again. Currently the only place I know that carries them is Garrett Wade. There might be others too, but I can't give you any leads. For many years Ulmia benches were the "Gold Standard" among factory made benches, but they have always been quite pricey. On the other hand, I have never met a single solitary soul who wasn't happy with an Ulmia bench.

[Allan Brown]

Have been wanting to see if I could successfully get a photo posted. Let's see how this works.:rolleyes:

[Gary Curtis]

If you want 'high end' and don't have a limited budget, Laguna Tools offers their "Signature"- series workbench for about $2000. It's made in Europe, and is massive. I've seen them a few times, but can't comment on the quality of the vises.

The wood, however, was really fine.

Gary Curtis

[Allan Brown]

I received the Diefenbach Traditional German bench yesterday, and couldn't be happier. The few things that FWW complained about were non-existent on this bench. The vises are massive and well-fitted -- they'll clamp a single sheet of paper. They were made in Germany - but the factory has closed. The US distributor still has a good selection of inventory in Pueblo, CO. This is a wonderfully built bench, solid and ready to go to work. Have been making wood bench dogs for it, and will start using it in earnest this weekend. I've already ordered two holdfasts from TFWW, and after I use it for a while, will decide where best to drill the 3/4" holes to use them. (Ultimately the reason for not choosing the Sjoberg bench was its 1" dia. dog holes for which very little will fit.)

I've been working on a Sears bench for nearly a year, and can't believe how nice it is to actually work on a bench that's designed to accommodate my work with hand tools.

[Wallis Hampson]

Please send some pictures when you get it all together.

[Allan Brown]

:D
Haven't had time to do everything I had planned this weekend, but did snap a few shots after getting the bench ready to go.

You'll notice how the thumbwheel is used on the front vise to eliminate racking when an object is clamped to one side. This wheel really spins quickly for ease of adjustment, and hides away in the jaw face when not in use.

You'll notice I made a couple of bench dogs out of poplar and maple -- just can't bring myself to use those massive steel dogs included with the bench. Too much risk of running a plane or chisel into them. Besides, they're very easy to make.

I also took a tip from the FWW review on workbenches when they mentioned the Lie-Nielson bench used rubber gaskets to protect the vise knobs from knocking into the cast iron T handle. I ran to HD and got eight 7/8" rubber O rings and simply doubled them on each end of the vice handles. Keeps the knobs from getting banged up.

When the mood's just right tonight, I plan on dimming the lights, lighting a few candles, setting out a nice Cabernet-Sauvignon and lay my Spiers Infill smoother on top of the Diefenbach. I'll leave so they can get acquainted.;)

Of course I'm kidding...I'll take the wine with me!
Allan

[John Schreiber]

Congratulations on the new bench. Looks like it will serve you well. Also thanks for the closeup pictures of the gizmo that prevents the front vice from racking. I'd been thinking of incorporating one of those into a vise and had pictured it differently.

[glenn bradley]

I'm pretty much settled on the Sjoberg 2000...funny thing is it's the one I've wanted from day one, so I've just come full circle.

I shudder to think how often I do that.

[glenn bradley]

Allan,

No I haven't. I may buy some someday but I've found the metal dogs (four of them) that came with the bench has been sufficient. I have only put the bench to limited use so far. As my retirement approaches (222 days) I'll be using it more, I suspect. I have only just finished building the shop within the last 3 or so months.

When I made my bench I dutifully cranked out 7 or 8 dogs. I find that I use two 98% of the time. The most I've ever needed was four but I could see having something clamped in each vise at some time(?).

[Allan Brown]

I shudder to think how often I do that.
HAHA! Sometimes just because you've come full circle doesn't always mean you're in the same plane. I thought I had the Sjoberg nailed down, but two factors swayed me toward the Diefenbach. Square dog holes (as opposed to the full 1" round holes in the SJ); and tool-tray. I've already found the latter invaluable. I'm also becoming very fond of the tail vise -- never had used one before.

I really appreciate the varying opinions on this forum. A vast range of knowledge and experience...
Thanks,

[Wallis Hampson]

Wow....Very Nice Allan.