Dust collection on circular saws with EZ system

[Michael Van Voorhis]

Hello all!

I plan on getting my first circular saw (7 1/2") soon and need some advice. I had planned on getting the Festool TS55 until I read up on the EZ system. Now I think I will go with that. Here are my requirements.

1) I am a VERY occasional woodworker without a dedicated workshop. I have to pull my cars out of my garage just to set ANYTHING up to work. (It's why I have chosen the EZ over the Festool system)
2) Of course able to work with the EZ system.
3) I will be working with MDF in the future so dust collection is a must.
4) As with anyone price is a factor. I need to keep it under $200 just for the saw.

I know the forum favorites seem to be the Hilti, PC Mag, Worx. Has anyone used a couple of these and able to comment on their dust collection? Are their better options? Festool is renown for their DC systems. Do any of these compare in that regard?

Thanks for all the advice!

[Don Bergren]

I use the PC MAG with my EZ setup and am very happy with the dust collection. I can do a lot of cutting and have very little mess to clean up after I finish. I've found that the PC is a comfortable saw to use and has plenty of power for my needs.

I have the Porter Cable hose that adapts my HEPA filter equipped Shop Vac's 2 - 1/2" hose to my PC MAG dust hose connection. Eurekazone has a dust shield that they include with their system that you mount on your saw for additional dust collection efficiency. It works great.

My shop area is similar to yours and all has to be portable enough for me to pull my van inside during bad weather. For me the EZ has been a huge help in that regard, and it lets me cut wood without the need for a lot of shop cleanup after I'm done.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Hello all!

I plan on getting my first circular saw (7 1/2") soon and need some advice. I had planned on getting the Festool TS55 until I read up on the EZ system. Now I think I will go with that. Here are my requirements.

1) I am a VERY occasional woodworker without a dedicated workshop. I have to pull my cars out of my garage just to set ANYTHING up to work. (It's why I have chosen the EZ over the Festool system)
2) Of course able to work with the EZ system.
3) I will be working with MDF in the future so dust collection is a must.
4) As with anyone price is a factor. I need to keep it under $200 just for the saw.

I know the forum favorites seem to be the Hilti, PC Mag, Worx. Has anyone used a couple of these and able to comment on their dust collection? Are their better options? Festool is renown for their DC systems. Do any of these compare in that regard?

Thanks for all the advice!

First of all, I would recommend you ask this on the EZ forum in the manufacturer's section of Sawmill Creek. But to address your questions, dust collection with a circular saw isn't that difficult. With your limit of under $200 though, you'll have to eliminate the Hilti 267. That's what I have and it's an amazing saw. And with a very minor modification the DC is excellent. All you do is add a clear plastic strip to act as a shield at the front of the blade guard. You can do this modification to any CS that has a dust port though. It's supposed to be very effective on the PC saw too.

I don't know if the DC with my Hilti is as good as with that green saw or not. But my shop vac sucks up so much of the dust that there really isn't too much room for improvement. If mine sucks up 90% or more of the dust does the green saw suck up 100%? Nope. Ask these questions on the EZ forum and you'll get a lot of help.

I'm sure you'll be very satisfied with your choice of the EZ Smart. It's an amazing line of tools that is continuing to get better and smarter all the time. There's nothing else like it in the tool world that I know of.

Bruce

[Michael Schwartz]

Dino claims the dust collection on his Bosch Wormdrive is better than any saw, that is of course with a few mods.

The dust collection with my Hilti 267 is pretty good.

[frank shic]

To get decent MDF collection, you MUST have some kind of separator to prevent the vacuum filter from clogging up with that sticky MDF dust. I use a clearvue minicyclone with a PC MAG circular saw although I'd like to replace it with a Festool ATF someday so I can get completely chip-free cuts in conjunction with the eurekazone cabinetmaker. You still will not get 100% but maybe around 80-90%.

[Michael Schwartz]

I have a seperator I made out of a 5 gallon bucket, lid, and 2 90 degree pvc elbows, and it is very effective. I was suppriesd the first time opening it up after ripping about 20 linear feet of 2x pine, to find it was more than 1/4 full.

[Randal Stevenson]

Think about future projects! Are you right handed or Left handed? Are you looking at (currently), just the EZ guide rail setup, or a Bridge setup?

The reasons I say these is 1. Different saws have different depths and not all have brakes. 2. Fewer left bladed saw choices 3. As for the Bridge, EZ system, while a brake is nice, you can do with a longer rail (just wait for it to stop), so that may or may not be a factor.

I was happy with the Bosch CS20 (early dust collector adopter), and it did a good job, so I am sure the Worx would to (similar setup). If you go the PC (mine currently is the left blade/left dominant), get the one with the brake. But there are those who do cut thicker stuff and start out with an 8 1/4" saw, and do their own dust mods.

[Michael Van Voorhis]

Thanks for all the replies people! :)


Think about future projects! Are you right handed or Left handed? Are you looking at (currently), just the EZ guide rail setup, or a Bridge setup?

1. Right handed. So I was looking for a right bladed saw, right?

2. I was only looking at the rail system and not the bridge. Since I woodwork so infrequently the bridge is overkill for my planned future projects.

3. While a brake is nice, I did not think it was a requirement on the rail system.


I did not post in the EZ sub-forum at first because my question was primarily about dust collection and not about EZ System synergy.

So I guess the Hilti 267 is more than $200. What about the Hilti 167? Does that have DC? I am assuming that it would be cheaper as well.

[Randal Stevenson]

Thanks for all the replies people! :)



1. Right handed. So I was looking for a right bladed saw, right?

2. I was only looking at the rail system and not the bridge. Since I woodwork so infrequently the bridge is overkill for my planned future projects.

3. While a brake is nice, I did not think it was a requirement on the rail system.


I did not post in the EZ sub-forum at first because my question was primarily about dust collection and not about EZ System synergy.

So I guess the Hilti 267 is more than $200. What about the Hilti 167? Does that have DC? I am assuming that it would be cheaper as well.

1. Correct, and Dino has posted that either will work fine on a Bridge (for FUTURE reference) Because 2. May eventually happen (but not for some time).
3. NOT A REQUIREMENT, but a usefull item. If you read through some of EZ's posts, you will see people chipping the white antichip edges, from running close to the very end of the guide, and pulling the saw off of it to avoid things like woodburn, and they chip the edge from the running blade. That is one more reason to either use a brake, go for the longer (114") rail setup, or buy extra antichip edges.
With the dust mods, Bosch CS series, Worx, and Porter Cable (shield and exhaust), should all be fine.
As for the 167, it costs more, has less depth of cut and doesn't have the built in dust collection of the Porter Cable.

Don't be afraid to look at refurbised saws from Porter Cables site, they run sales on them.

[Michael Van Voorhis]

Don't be afraid to look at refurbised saws from Porter Cables site, they run sales on them.

I didn't know that!

Thanks for all the help people. Keep it coming!

[Michael Van Voorhis]

I just purchased the PC325MAG reconditioned. I was tempted to the Festool but couldn't justify the cost from how little woodworking I do. It sound like it should fill my needs nicely with my upcoming EZ system purchase.

Is all that is required for the 325mag is that plastic shield around the blade?

[Brad Schmid]

My 325Mag dust collection is very good after adding a shield. At least 95% effective hooked to a Fein Turbo II.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56246

[Bruce Benjamin]

Help me understand something about, "Shop vacs". I have an old Craftsman jumbo sized vac that could suck-start a Harley. I equipped it with a super fine point something something micron filter. I use one of those vac start switches from Craftsman. So my question is, how is the Fein and Festool vacs better at sucking? I'm not trying to be argumentative here at all. But other than possibly lasting longer and certainly looking better, how do they perform better? Do they suck harder? Do they filter better than mine with that special filter? I'm not saying that they don't do any of these things better, I'm just curious if they do, or do they just cost a lot more and look better? I'm not in the position to replace mine any time soon but when I do I plan to get the best bang for my buck.

Bruce

[Matt Meiser]

I have a 7 year old Ridgid which looks like a classic shop vac--big round tank, motor on top, small casters, etc. and a Festool CT22. The suction of the two seems about the same. The Festool is considerably quieter, has the switch built in (less stuff to haul around/put away) and has a Hepa filter, which you could probably get for the Shop-Vac. I have a Cleanstream filter on the Ridgid--not sure if that is a hepa filter. Per "Uncle Bob" I'm fine sanding drywall with the Festool. I believe there is a warning against doing so in the manual for the shop vac and I know I've read stories about how shop vacs send the fine dust all over making a bigger mess than they clean up with standard filters. The Festool uses a bag like a house vacuum, at least like house vacuums used to use. Costs a little extra, but much less messy to empty. I don't even empty my shop-vac in the shop. The Festool is easier to move around because it doesn't tip over when I try to pull it over a cord or the big expansion joint that runs right through the center of my shop. The big wheels on the back make it easy to pull it through the yard to the house and up the deck steps when I need to use it in the house. The Festool hoses are way better than anything Ridgid or Shop-Vac sell. They would fit the shop vac too. Mine fits my Festool sander, my Porter-Cable tools (sander, circular saw, and biscuit joiner), and my Dewalt router with no adapters. I had a cobbled up, stiff Shop Vac hose to do that before the Festool.

I've kept both because I still use the shop vac for "dirty" jobs and for wet jobs.

[Brad Schmid]

2 words - bypass cooling.

The air used to cool the vac motor on the Fein (and the Festool as far as I know) is sucked from fresh air as opposed to using the air sucked through the vac hose to cool the motor. Result is better cooling, longer motor life, motor cooling even if hose is completely plugged up.

Matt hit the other points: noise level, better hoses, built in auto switches, filtering...

Cheers

[Dan Clark]

Hello all!
1) I am a VERY occasional woodworker without a dedicated workshop. I have to pull my cars out of my garage just to set ANYTHING up to work. (It's why I have chosen the EZ over the Festool system)

Michael,

Both systems have their benefits, but I chose Festool because it fit my needs better. And that's where I'm confused...

One of my primary needs is the same as yours - the need to quickly set up, use, and then store my garage "woodshop". That's one of Festool's greatest strengths!

Festool tools are stored in Systainers. Festool Systainers provide a compact, integrated storage system that is very portable and stackable. Festool makes accessory Systainers for router bits and Sortainers for parts and accessories storage. The make a special abrasives systainer with multiple inserts for storing sand paper. They even make systainers with diced inserts for storing non-Festool tools and one with a tool insert for storing tools.

With Systainers and Sortainers, you can stack a whole workshop of tools, accessories, and parts in about 4 square feet. They snap together to move them and for safe secure storage. For portability and access, Festool makes a cart for moving a stack of systainers around and a mobile "Systainer Port" with drawers for quick access to Systainers.

While Dino makes a good system of rails, he doesn't make tools. So you have to buy tools from some other company. And that means...

You're stuck finding a place to store tools with multiple, incompatible cases and boxes. AFAIK, Festool is the only vendor in the US to provide an integrated, stackable storage system for their tools.

Besides the systainers, all of the Festool work tables and work stands are compact and portable. Take a a look the Festool CMS and Precisio systems available in the rest of the world - completely portable. Take a look at the new Kapex SCMS - it's made for portability and uses a portable MFT for it's base.

Bottom line - besides dust collection, portability is one of the key underpinnings of the Festool system.

So I'm confused... Why do think EZ is better than Festool for a portable workshop?

Regards,

Dan.

[Gary Keedwell]

:eek: Oh no....Festool Police are here!!!:rolleyes: :D

Gary K. (only kidding...don't spank me,please)

PS. I read OP 3 times and it seems like $ money is a big factor.

[Bob Childress]

Michael,

Based on your stated needs, I think you should go with the EZ system. The PC mag has decent DC, in my experience, and you won't break your budget. The EZ has a lot of fans and is apparently a good piece of gear with lots of room for growth as your needs change. :)

[Gary, speak to me! Gary? You alright?]

[Gary Keedwell]

:eek: :eek: Bob, I had to read your post again after I regained conscientiousness.:rolleyes: Are you really the Honorary Bloke Guy?:confused:

( I won't tell any of the Aussies of your escapade)

Gary K.;)

[Michael Schwartz]

Here we go again, another E vs F war :p (just kidding BTW)

I throw out most portable tool cases anyway, takes too long to fit everything back into them. :rolleyes:

If I need a specialized case I make my own :cool:

I don't buy tools based on the cases they come in :D

[Bob Childress]

:eek: :eek: Bob, I had to read your post again after I regained conscientiousness.:rolleyes: Are you really the Honorary Bloke Guy?:confused:

( I won't tell any of the Aussies of your escapade)

Gary K.;)

Yes, that's really me. But you know, as much as I love Festool in all its manifestations, it isn't always the optimum answer for everyone. Especially if you are a "very occasional WWer" as the OP said, and budget is a big consideration. While I have been and will continue to be a Festool fanatic, I have never bashed any of Dino's products and don't intend to start. AFAIK, they are well-made, accurate, and affordable. :)

[Gary Keedwell]

Yes, that's really me. But you know, as much as I love Festool in all its manifestations, it isn't always the optimum answer for everyone. Especially if you are a "very occasional WWer" as the OP said, and budget is a big consideration. While I have been and will continue to be a Festool fanatic, I have never bashed any of Dino's products and don't intend to start. AFAIK, they are well-made, accurate, and affordable. :)
I hear you Bob. I have made it a habit to not knock tool brands.(say that fast 3 times lol) I don't even put down Craftsmen tools. I believe there are tools for for every budget. I have to admit though, as much as I admire Festool tools, it took me a long, long ,long...time to "get over" the sticker shock.;) :D ( am I doing better Bob?)

Gary K.

[Burt Waddell]

Help me understand something about, "Shop vacs". I have an old Craftsman jumbo sized vac that could suck-start a Harley. I equipped it with a super fine point something something micron filter. I use one of those vac start switches from Craftsman. So my question is, how is the Fein and Festool vacs better at sucking? I'm not trying to be argumentative here at all. But other than possibly lasting longer and certainly looking better, how do they perform better? Do they suck harder? Do they filter better than mine with that special filter? I'm not saying that they don't do any of these things better, I'm just curious if they do, or do they just cost a lot more and look better? I'm not in the position to replace mine any time soon but when I do I plan to get the best bang for my buck.

Bruce

Let me just add one other point. When I was of buying a Fein Vac, I thought that was just to much money so I went to lowes to check the specs on Shop Vac. The Highest suction rating on the shop vacs was 65 inches of water. The Mid range Fein that I bought has a suction of 95 and I believe the larger fein is about 104. Festool suction ratings are equal to or better than the Fein.

Is the by pass cooling that Brad mentioned important? Yes - Very. In a period of less than 6 months I lost two vacuums because they got full, got hot and burned out.

Burt

[Bob Childress]

( am I doing better Bob?)

Gary K.

The doctor says: "Yes. Prognosis good. Full recovery expected." :D :D

[Michael Van Voorhis]

Michael,

Both systems have their benefits, but I chose Festool because it fit my needs better. And that's where I'm confused...

One of my primary needs is the same as yours - the need to quickly set up, use, and then store my garage "woodshop". That's one of Festool's greatest strengths!

Festool tools are stored in Systainers. Festool Systainers provide a compact, integrated storage system that is very portable and stackable. Festool makes accessory Systainers for router bits and Sortainers for parts and accessories storage. The make a special abrasives systainer with multiple inserts for storing sand paper. They even make systainers with diced inserts for storing non-Festool tools and one with a tool insert for storing tools.

With Systainers and Sortainers, you can stack a whole workshop of tools, accessories, and parts in about 4 square feet. They snap together to move them and for safe secure storage. For portability and access, Festool makes a cart for moving a stack of systainers around and a mobile "Systainer Port" with drawers for quick access to Systainers.

While Dino makes a good system of rails, he doesn't make tools. So you have to buy tools from some other company. And that means...

You're stuck finding a place to store tools with multiple, incompatible cases and boxes. AFAIK, Festool is the only vendor in the US to provide an integrated, stackable storage system for their tools.

Besides the systainers, all of the Festool work tables and work stands are compact and portable. Take a a look the Festool CMS and Precisio systems available in the rest of the world - completely portable. Take a look at the new Kapex SCMS - it's made for portability and uses a portable MFT for it's base.

Bottom line - besides dust collection, portability is one of the key underpinnings of the Festool system.

So I'm confused... Why do think EZ is better than Festool for a portable workshop?

Regards,

Dan.

Mr. Clark,

Your points are all valid. I like the Festool lineup. I own a Rotex sander and in the future will probably buy one of their DC systems. I do not think EZ is a better system for everybody. (Dino may disagree. ;)) I believe EZ is better suited for me. Let me explain.

I already have a small fold-away Workmate bench that I use so the MFT isn't needed. The EZ system breaks down into one rail and small square able to be used anywhere. Doesn't the FT rail need to work with their table? I could be wrong there. I like the idea of a non-proprietary blade system. The DC on the PC is almost up to Festool standards. I have heard that the plunge system on the TS55 can sometimes be difficult with longer cuts. (I have shorter arms) And while I believe in the motto "Buy a tool once and buy it for life," I also believe in investing my funds where they will be enjoyed the most. Since I will be cutting wood once every two years (not every two days like some of you :D) I could not justify the expense of the Festool saw and rail system over the EZ system with a different saw for the money. I do not think I would appreciate the additional quality of saw over the less expensive alternatives.

[Dan Clark]

:eek: Oh no....Festool Police are here!!!:rolleyes: :D

Gary K. (only kidding...don't spank me,please)

PS. I read OP 3 times and it seems like $ money is a big factor.
Gary,

Not, of course, to be confused with the situations where the EZ police show up. :eek:

Yep, if money is a factor, there are cheaper options. While Fine Homebuilding Magazine's guide rail comparison rated Festool as the top guide rail, they rated the Red-Line Cutting Guide from Hartville Tool as best value. If I wanted to save money, the Red-Line Cutting Guide would be my choice.

Regards,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Mr. Clark,

Your points are all valid. I like the Festool lineup. I own a Rotex sander and in the future will probably buy one of their DC systems. I do not think EZ is a better system for everybody. (Dino may disagree. ;)) I believe EZ is better suited for me. Let me explain.

I already have a small fold-away Workmate bench that I use so the MFT isn't needed. The EZ system breaks down into one rail and small square able to be used anywhere. Doesn't the FT rail need to work with their table? I could be wrong there. I like the idea of a non-proprietary blade system. The DC on the PC is almost up to Festool standards. I have heard that the plunge system on the TS55 can sometimes be difficult with longer cuts. (I have shorter arms) And while I believe in the motto "Buy a tool once and buy it for life," I also believe in investing my funds where they will be enjoyed the most. Since I will be cutting wood once every two years (not every two days like some of you :D) I could not justify the expense of the Festool saw and rail system over the EZ system with a different saw for the money. I do not think I would appreciate the additional quality of saw over the less expensive alternatives.
Michael,

What is important is to find something that is best for you. That's bottom line.

Regarding the Festool guide rail, it can be used anywhere. You don't need an Festool MFT table. You just lay the guide rail on the wood, slap your Festool saw on top, and cut. I've used my Festool rails with wood laying on top of foam, on top of other plywood, between a couple of 2X4's, etc. Lots of choices. Depends on the situation.

That said, you still need a Festool saw to use the Festool guide rails. If you have other saws that you like, then the EZ system or Red-Line guide rails will work fine to.

Whatever works best for you is most important.

Regards,

Dan.

[Michael Schwartz]

Michael,

Regarding the Festool guide rail, it can be used anywhere. You don't need an Festool MFT table. You just lay the guide rail on the wood, slap your Festool saw on top, and cut
.
Dan.

Same thing with the EZ system is you don't need the bridge, and if you want to use the rails off the bridge, it takes 30 seconds to disconnect them.

You can also "slap" the ez system on the wood "slap" your saw top and cut.

One of the problems with the rubber anti chip edges of the fesstool, are that while they to help secure the guide, it is harder to finely adjust it to your cut line.

There is rubber non skid tape available for the EZ rails, and it is good when working with flooring.

The smart clamps are fast and easy to setup, and there is no need to clamp at all when working with the square or repeaters. When working with the square and cabinet maker, or with the repeaters there is no need to mark out the cut, and positioning the rail is foolproof.

I have invested nearly a thousand dollars in the EZ smart system, I own the repeaters/cabinet maker as well as a full blown power bench with bridge. I have abslolutely no regrets. I looked at the fesstool system carefully and I hate to say this, but there are other manufacturers of fine tools out there as well other than fesstool.

The EZ system combined with the right saw is good to go within about 20 minutes of opening the box.

[Dan Clark]

Same thing with the EZ system is you don't need the bridge, and if you want to use the rails off the bridge, it takes 30 seconds to disconnect them.

You can also "slap" the ez system on the wood "slap" your saw top and cut.

One of the problems with the rubber anti chip edges of the fesstool, are that while they to help secure the guide, it is harder to finely adjust it to your cut line.

There is rubber non skid tape available for the EZ rails, and it is good when working with flooring.

The smart clamps are fast and easy to setup, and there is no need to clamp at all when working with the square or repeaters. When working with the square and cabinet maker, or with the repeaters there is no need to mark out the cut, and positioning the rail is foolproof.

I have invested nearly a thousand dollars in the EZ smart system, I own the repeaters/cabinet maker as well as a full blown power bench with brige. I have abslolutely no regrets. I looked at the fesstool system carefully and I hate to say this, but there are other manufacturers of fine tools out there as well other than fesstool.
Michael,

Why are you telling me this? Besides having several errors about Festool, your post sounds quite defensive - like you need to prove that the EZ system is good.

I've already stated that EZ was a good system and have not stated that Festool is the only good tool out there. Further, nothing I said indicates anything about what EZ can or can not do.

I've limited my comments to what I KNOW Festool can do based on personal experience or based on reputable sources like Fine Homebuilding. I suggest you do likewise. Before making definitive statements about Festool (or any other tool), try them rather than just "look at" them.

Have a nice day,

Dan.

p.s., you spent nearly $1,000 on EZ?!? Sounds expensive to me. I have a lot less than that invested in Festool Guide Rails!

[Gary Keedwell]

If I wanted to save money, the Red-Line Cutting Guide would be my choice.

Regards,

Dan.[/quote]
Dan, Have you tried the Red-Line ? If you want to save money, why would you go with the Red-Line? Why not the E-Z line?

Gary K.

[Dan Clark]

Dan, Have you tried the Red-Line ? If you want to save money, why would you go with the Red-Line? Why not the E-Z line?

Gary K.
Because it received best value award from Fine Home Building and is quite inexpensive.

EZ seems expensive to me. When I eval'd Festool vs EZ, I compared the costs and decided that Festool was the best value for me and a more coherent system. With EZ, I would have had to buy the components of a system and integrate them myself. With Festool, they are designed to work together.

One deciding factor was that I didn't have any power tools that I thought were worth keeping. If I had a lot of good tools and wanted to save bucks, I would have gotten something like a Red-Line guide. With good tools and if I didn't want to save money, I would have considered EZ.

Simple as that.

Regards,

Dan.

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary,

Not, of course, to be confused with the situations where the EZ police show up. :eek:

Yep, if money is a factor, there are cheaper options. While Fine Homebuilding Magazine's guide rail comparison rated Festool as the top guide rail, they rated the Red-Line Cutting Guide from Hartville Tool as best value. If I wanted to save money, the Red-Line Cutting Guide would be my choice.

Regards,

Dan.
Yes, the Police on both sides can be rather trying. But it gets old real fast when your talking about a router...police show up. When your talking about a vacuum..police show up. When your talking about a jig saw..police show up. When your talking about a sander..police show up. When your talking about tenons..police show up. And now the police are showing up at compound miter saw talks and their not available in the USA. When do you guys get time for woodworking:confused: :rolleyes: :D
Gary K.

[Dan Clark]

...
When do you guys get time for woodworking:confused: :rolleyes: :D
Gary K.
Woodworking? What is this "woodworking"? :confused: Aren't we supposed to be vociferously defending our tool puchases? :cool:

"Woodworking"... Hmmm... I'll have to try that some day. :D

Dan.

[Gary Keedwell]

Woodworking? What is this "woodworking"? :confused: Aren't we supposed to be vociferously defending our tool puchases? :cool:

"Woodworking"... Hmmm... I'll have to try that some day. :D

Dan.

I give up!!!!!!!!:eek: :rolleyes: ;)

Gary K.