Grizzly G0591 Slider

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

I didn't get a chance to go to the Vegas show last weekend.Any of you that did and visited the Grizzly booth,I was curious if they had their G0591 12" slider saw on display.If they did and you saw it,what were your opinions on the slider.Thank
Scott

[Chris McDowell]

Scott I didn't go to the Vegas show but I was on vacation in Branson Missouri about a month ago and got to look at that saw in Grizzly's showroom in Springfield. I was less than impressed by the machine. No real trunion assembly to speak of and the lack of knowledge about the machine by the sales staff was surprising. I even talked to the manager and he knew next to nothing about the saw or how sliders were really used.
Don't get me wrong he was a great guy just not real knowledgeable about the product. Makes you wonder how things will go if there is a problem.It might prove to be okay in a hobby type environment , but it is way short of anything in the MM or Felder line of equipment.
At the last the manager even told me the MM 315 and the G0591 were probably made in the same factory over seas. That was all I needed to know.
If it was me, I'd save my pennies and put my money into something more proven and far more substantial. That is just my opinion so take that for what it is worth. Best of luck.

[Shiraz Balolia]

At the last the manager even told me the MM 315 and the G0591 were probably made in the same factory over seas. That was all I needed to know.
If it was me, I'd save my pennies and put my money into something more proven and far more substantial. That is just my opinion so take that for what it is worth. Best of luck.

Just to clarify - The MM and our machines are NOT made in the same factory. I apologize for the speculation that you received from our sales person and had a heart to heart with them today to not comment about issues they have no personal knowledge about.
The G0591 is a light duty machine. However, if a person is planning on spending more money, we suggest the heavy duty G0501 which is made for industrial use and we have sold many of them to production shops.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/g0501
The tables for these are made in Italy, but the machine is made in Taiwan.

[Todd Solomon]

I didn't get a chance to go to the Vegas show last weekend.Any of you that did and visited the Grizzly booth,I was curious if they had their G0591 12" slider saw on display.If they did and you saw it,what were your opinions on the slider.Thank
Scott

Scott,

I'm a big fan of Grizzly (I have a 12" jointer, and am planning on buying a wide-belt sander). They do some things very well, at an excellent value.

However, I don't like their sliding table saws. I have a Felder for 4 years, and used to have a Mini Max slider, so I have a fair amount of experience to go on.

At AWFS, the first thing that I looked at was the quality of the crosscut fence and flip-stop system, on the sliding table outrigger. A lot of backlash in the flip-stops, which leads to inaccuracy. I stopped there. That's the business end of a sliding table saw. Their low-end and high-end sliding saws all had this issue. If the crosscut fence system is not accurate, repeatable, easy to adjust, and easy to remove and replace without the need of recalibration, then it's not in the same league as Felder, Mini Max or Hammer. I would personally only consider those three brands, at the under $10K price level.

Todd

[Jameel Abraham]

Scott,

I'm a big fan of Grizzly (I have a 12" jointer, and am planning on buying a wide-belt sander). They do some things very well, at an excellent value.

However, I don't like their sliding table saws. I have a Felder for 4 years, and used to have a Mini Max slider, so I have a fair amount of experience to go on.

At AWFS, the first thing that I looked at was the quality of the crosscut fence and flip-stop system, on the sliding table outrigger. A lot of backlash in the flip-stops, which leads to inaccuracy. I stopped there. That's the business end of a sliding table saw. Their low-end and high-end sliding saws all had this issue. If the crosscut fence system is not accurate, repeatable, easy to adjust, and easy to remove and replace without the need of recalibration, then it's not in the same league as Felder, Mini Max or Hammer. I would personally only consider those three brands, at the under $10K price level.

Todd

Great info Todd. I've been looking at these sliders too, and its good to hear some feedback about these machines from a first hand source. Care to comment on you 12" jointer? I've been looking at these too. Which model do you have? I just bought the Grizzly 15" wide belt and am happy so far.

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

Todd
Thanks for the info.That's what I was looking for as far as a hands on opinion.I'm looking at all the options available as far as brands go.Just curious,why the switch from MM to Felder.Thanks again.

Scott

[Todd Solomon]

Great info Todd. I've been looking at these sliders too, and its good to hear some feedback about these machines from a first hand source. Care to comment on you 12" jointer? I've been looking at these too. Which model do you have? I just bought the Grizzly 15" wide belt and am happy so far.

The Ultimate 12" is what I have, their higher end model. Absolutely a terrific machine. Industrial controls and build quality, dead flat and parallel, vibration free.

I spent about 1/2 hour in the Grizzly booth, where a salesman sanded a piece down to a very uniform .090" thick (a good thickness for making your own veneer). They also sanded a piece down to .006"! It was incredible, it varied by only about .006 to .008". I'm fairly sold on Grizzly for wide belt sanders. I'd like to get the 15", if it performs as well as the closed end models (18" up). How do you like it?

Todd

[Todd Solomon]

Todd
Thanks for the info.That's what I was looking for as far as a hands on opinion.I'm looking at all the options available as far as brands go.Just curious,why the switch from MM to Felder.Thanks again.

Scott

Believe it or not, I won Felder's "Sliding for Success" drawing, where you get any table saw for 1/2 price. Felder usually doesn't discount much, so this was an incredible deal. I sold my Mini Max SC4-WS and got the Felder K700S Plus, for what I sold the Mini Max for. Both are terrific machines. I'm personally partial to Felder, but would encourage anyone to look at Felder, Mini Max and Hammer, before purchasing a slider.

Todd

[Lawrence Nitz]

Hi! As I was reading the sequence posts on the Griz. sliding table saw, it struck me as both most unusual, and most rewarding, that the president of Grizzley took the time to clarify a piece of misinformation. Can any of you remember when the president of any other tool manufacturer took the time to communicate with potential buyers, let alone defusing a myth that would normally help sales? (Think of Bill Ford writing in to a site in which people criticized Detroit cars' gas milage, and telling everyone that Ford makes a diesel Focus in Europe that gets 45 MPG, but that they won't sell it to you in the U.S.)

I am glad that I chose the Grizzley cabinet saw, edge, and belt sanders. These sorts of communications tend to raise my trust in a company.

[Jameel Abraham]

The Ultimate 12" is what I have, their higher end model. Absolutely a terrific machine. Industrial controls and build quality, dead flat and parallel, vibration free.

I spent about 1/2 hour in the Grizzly booth, where a salesman sanded a piece down to a very uniform .090" thick (a good thickness for making your own veneer). They also sanded a piece down to .006"! It was incredible, it varied by only about .006 to .008". I'm fairly sold on Grizzly for wide belt sanders. I'd like to get the 15", if it performs as well as the closed end models (18" up). How do you like it?

Todd

Thanks for the jointer info. Right now I'm leaning towards the cheaper one, but the ultimate looks awful nice. I'm still kinda sick about a new 16" Bridgewood w/ Shelix that I missed by $50 on Ebay. It went for $2600 if you can beleive it. I'm getting a little queasy right now just writing about it! I haven't gone down to .006 with the sander, but I have gone down to .02. I don't see any reason to go below that, ever. But everything is rigid and robust enough that it should be fine. I considered the 18" as well, but I sacrificed a little rigidity (assuming here, I think 15" is very rigid) and the electronic adjustment for the 30" wide capacity. That was hard to pass up. It's not just width either, you can do odd shaped pieces with the open end that would be impossible with anyting but a huge machine. The footprint is also smaller than a Performax 16-32. Very well built.

[Steve Roxberg]

I'm still kinda sick about a new 16" Bridgewood w/ Shelix that I missed by $50 on Ebay. It went for $2600 if you can beleive it.

If it makes you feel better you don't really know whether you missed it by $50 or not. The other party may have bid $3600, but won for $2600.

The key for me when bidding on e-bay is to put the max bid I'm willing to pay and then never look back if I don't win.

[Shiraz Balolia]

The Ultimate 12" is what I have, their higher end model. Absolutely a terrific machine. Industrial controls and build quality, dead flat and parallel, vibration free.

I spent about 1/2 hour in the Grizzly booth, where a salesman sanded a piece down to a very uniform .090" thick (a good thickness for making your own veneer). They also sanded a piece down to .006"! It was incredible, it varied by only about .006 to .008". I'm fairly sold on Grizzly for wide belt sanders. I'd like to get the 15", if it performs as well as the closed end models (18" up). How do you like it?

Todd

Hi Todd,

Thank you for your frank comments. I wish you had showed us what you felt was lacking on our external fences and what on the Felder was better so that we could have gone and looked at it and others at the show while all the players were there. Now you have given me some "homework" to do with your comments about the flip stops.

A show like this is an absolute terrific place for the consumer. He/she can see just about every make minutes from each other. We sold many sliders at the show and some people kept coming back for three days before they bought from us. Obviously they were shopping around and looking at others before settling on ours. Some day it would nice to have Jim Becker come over to our booth and go over our sliders to make suggestions (no, I'm not buying you an air ticket, Jim:) ). A well experienced user is always the best source for information and we have made numerous improvements over the years based on customer comments.

On the subject of wide-belt sanders. Sanding down to .006" of an inch is one of those "don't try this at home" things. We bypassed the safety limit switch for the table in order to get that thin on the wood. We just do that to show the ability and accuracy of these sanders. One mistake and you risk the danger of running the drum/belt into the rubber conveyor belt and then you have a major issue. So please folks, do not bypass the limit switch on our widebelt sanders.

On the same subject, one of our salemen was giving a full sanding demo to a lady. She thanked us and walked away. Later on she came back and told us that right after we finished the sanding demo, a salesman from a European widebelt sander company was watching the whole thing, went over to her and said "now let me show you what a real widebelt sander can do" and took her to his booth and gave her a demo of their machine. She came back and bought ours. I found out about this after the fact and would have loved to have whispered sweet poems in his ear!

Lawrence - thank you for your comments.

[Jim Becker]

Shiraz, Todd and some others here have far more experience with sliding table saws than I do and I place a lot of weight on their observations. While I truly would have loved to be at the AWFS show, it just wasn't in the cards given I was in Shanghai that week on business. But I did enjoy IWF a number of years ago...we actually crossed paths at the WOOD Magazine event, but were not introduced.

[Randy Denby]

I was at the AWFS in Vegas and saw the Grizzly products for the first time. I was absolutely impressed.....enough that I bought a 12" extreme jointer.(its being delivered today!) I will definitely be buying morefrom Grizzly. BTW, the guitars displayed were awesome!!!! I have played guitar since 7th grade....around '67 and have seen alot of guitars. I must say, these were the best I've ever seen. My wife took more pics of the guitars than anything....including the showgirls:mad: :D
Randy

[Todd Solomon]

Hi Todd,

Thank you for your frank comments. I wish you had showed us what you felt was lacking on our external fences and what on the Felder was better so that we could have gone and looked at it and others at the show while all the players were there. Now you have given me some "homework" to do with your comments about the flip stops.

A show like this is an absolute terrific place for the consumer. He/she can see just about every make minutes from each other. We sold many sliders at the show and some people kept coming back for three days before they bought from us. Obviously they were shopping around and looking at others before settling on ours. Some day it would nice to have Jim Becker come over to our booth and go over our sliders to make suggestions (no, I'm not buying you an air ticket, Jim:) ). A well experienced user is always the best source for information and we have made numerous suggestions over the years based on customer comments.

On the subject of wide-belt sanders. Sanding down to .006" of an inch is one of those "don't try this at home" things. We bypassed the safety limit switch for the table in order to get that thin on the wood. We just do that to show the ability and accuracy of these sanders. One mistake and you risk the danger of running the drum/belt into the rubber conveyor belt and then you have a major issue. So please folks, do not bypass the limit switch on our widebelt sanders.

On the same subject, one of our salemen was giving a full sanding demo to a lady. She thanked us and walked away. Later on she came back and told us that right after we finished the sanding demo, a salesman from a European widebelt sander company was watching the whole thing, went over to her and said "now let me show you what a real widebelt sander can do" and took her to his booth and gave her a demo of their machine. She came back and bought ours. I found out about this after the fact and would have loved to have whispered sweet poems in his ear!

Lawrence - thank you for your comments.

Shiraz,

I am really impressed with you and Grizzly, and your quest to bring so many tools within reach of mainstream woodworkers. I appreciate your efforts to offer a lower cost sliding table saw, to compete with the european manufactures.

I'll give you a quick, partial list of the things that the marketplace might demand of sliding table saws. I imagine that your sliders meet most of these, but I didn't crawl through the details of them. Perhaps other slider owners will add to this list:
1. Flip-stops are rigid and guided by bearings (such as bronze bushings), with no backlash or slop, slop that would allow the cut length to change, based on pressure exerted. If you look at a Felder 700 series or Mini Max S315, for example, these flip stops are excellent in this respect.
2. Cross-cut fence inch scale is easy to read accurately, without paralax.
3. Positive, repeatable, adjustable stops at 90 degrees for crosscut fence, in both fore and aft positions on outrigger. This should be more than just a set screw, something more substantial. Again, take a look at the Felder 700 series as an example.
4. Pivot point for crosscut fence is guided by tight bushings, eliminating all slop (if it can shift as much as a couple of thousandths, then squareness of cut may not be repeatable, after removing and replacing crosscut fence).
5. Crosscut fence is straight and rigid enough that it won't be flexed by a heavy sheet, or an operator that really jams the workpiece against it.
6. A means of setting precise common miter angles (30, 45, Etc) exactly and repeatably, such as a pin that engages holes. Also, a nice miter angle scale that is easy to set to, and accurately calibrated at the factory.
7. The sliding table is about .002 to .006" above the cast iron table saw top, at every point along it's length. Not sure if this is the right tolerance band, but should be close. This should be adjustable, in case the sliding table shifted during shipping.
8. The outrigger keeps a sheet of light or heavy stock very planer, throughout it's range of motion. This should be adjustable, in case it sags over time, or is not properly set.
9. Blade needs to be very parallel to sliding table. Needs to be adjustable.
10. Using the 5-sided cut method to verify squareness of the crosscut fence, a user should be able to adjust the crosscut fence so that it is perpendicular to the cut within .010" over 8'. I typically adjust mine to be within .006" over 8'. There is a write-up on the 5-sided cut method on the Felder Owner's Group. The crosscut fence and outrigger should be able to be removed and replaced a bunch of times, without this squareness changing significantly. This is really key, as many remove the outrigger and crosscut fence often, when doing smaller work.
11. A small, accurate crosscut fence should be offered, that can be used without the outrigger, for smaller work. This crosscut fence should have a repeatable hardstop at exactly 90 degrees, and a means to accurately set miter angles.
12. Thorough documentation and an expert technical staff to help users with issues, as they arise (and they will). This is absolutely a must, otherwise new users will be lost if they need to calibrate something.

Lots of other important details, surrounding the riving knife, scoring blade, and rip fence that I didn't mention, but those need to be top notch as well.

There is an "Unofficial Survival Guide" for Felder sliding table saws, written by David Best, that is about 300 pages of how to calibrate and use sliding table saws. This has a lot of detail that I think would be valuable to understanding what a state-of-the-art sliding table saw should be, addressing everything I mentioned above and more. There's a link to it on the Felder Owner's Group.

I hope this is useful to you. When I have more time, I'd love to pick your brain to decide which widebelt sander would be right for my needs (veneer work from resaw).

Regards,

Todd

[Paul B. Cresti]

Just in case anyone is curious there are many low cost slider companies out there also....some of them look suspiciously close in design to each other but none the less here are some of the ones I have found: Kufo, Robland, Laguna, Powermatic, Cam Wood, Andreou, Silver and Lobo. You can also find some of these saws via direct links to the Chinese manufacturer. The other thing to do is look on places like woodweb for a good used saw or even ex-factory. Hey if you want cheap you might as well look at all the options.....

[Shiraz Balolia]

Todd - thank you for the tips.
Our sliding tablesaw business has gone through the roof and it is imperative that we know as much about what every type of customer needs and looks for in them. We will pursue your suggestions. At the same time, feel free to PM me about the widebelt sanders.
Thanks again.

Randy - Thank you for the business and your comments about my guitars.

[Rafael Carias]

Just in case anyone is curious there are many low cost slider companies out there also....some of them look suspiciously close in design to each other but none the less here are some of the ones I have found: Kufo, Robland, Laguna, Powermatic, Cam Wood, Andreou, Silver and Lobo. You can also find some of these saws via direct links to the Chinese manufacturer. The other thing to do is look on places like woodweb for a good used saw or even ex-factory. Hey if you want cheap you might as well look at all the options.....


Paul, you forgot to mention panther. i have been doing extensive research with what ever information i can get from the internet and from some of the manufacturers. my conclusion is very similar to yours Paul. although not all the asian sliders look similar to each other, i do see that some of them share some similarities while others look a bit like the europen saws.

In searching info on asian sliders i found troublesome the fact that technology information for these machines (with the exception of altendorf's wa8) such carriage systems, trunnions and so forth be be highly enigmatic.

In all honesty i don't find the alternative sliders be to that big of a value when compared to the europen offerings. the price difference just isn't that dramatic enough to discount europen sliders altogether.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Rafael,Your right I did see Panther at one point....there is also Worx. I am absolutely positive there are many more. I also agree that the difference in price, at least to me, does not make up for the unknown factor for me. When I purchased my machines I knew what I was and was not getting, along with what kind of company and support I was getting......not to mention I was quite happy to be buying from the land of where my family came from ;>) if you want to look at European manufactures then consider: SCM, MM, Altendorf, Martin, Casedei, Casolin, Paoloni, Rojek, Felder, Holzher, Ema (?), Robland, Knapp, Griggio and the list goes on and on....

[Jim Becker]

Panther was just called out in the most recent issue of Woodshop News.

[Rafael Carias]

I just took a look at the worx, it looks like another altendorf clone.

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

I just took a look at the worx, it looks like another altendorf clone.


The sliding table on the Worx looks just like the Grizzly to me.I see what you mean about the pricing of these machines.Other than the Grizzly at $6,000 delivered,they are not far off from the Minimax,Felder,Hammer machines.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Some of them all look suspiciously close in design to me :confused: . Remember that article in Fine Woodworking many years ago about 15" planers? They all seemed to come out of two different factories in China or Taiwan (can not remember which) and the only differences were the color, the badge on the machine and the price. If you look at the true European designs they all are very different....linear bearings, roller bearings, x-roll......round bar ways, concave ways, v-groove ways.....

A sliding saw in nature is a simple concept but how it works under the hood is a different story. If they are all relatively close in price why the heck would someone want to take a chance on a machine that is not prooven? Beats me.....I am a single man, high custom shop and I sure am not about to take a chance with the money I do invest (the little i do have)in machinery that could relate to a roll of the dice and if by chance you do have money to spend then the heck with the botom of the barrel go straight to the top: SCM Vanguard, Martin T74, Altendorf F45. If you are like the majority of the people then look at time prooven designs and companies and decide on the features you want, the ones you need and waht you can afford. Most if not all of the major companies sell their saws all over the world, not just the USA. He funny thing is I believe that for many of these same companies the USA is not their biggest market.

Now if it is a very simple machine, like a cabinet saw, sure why not go to the lowest price...heck the design has not changed since it was invented and just about anyone can make a cast iron top and hang a motor in it. Think about folks....spend your money when it counts and save it where it really does not matter.....at least thats how I see it

[John Renzetti]

hi, Paul and Rafeal bring up some good points about clones and design. Personally I think Grizzly brings in some nice machines at a price point that opens up the market to others who would not buy otherwise.
The one thing that has always bothered me about machines that come in from Asia and this is especially true of the influx of sliders is that they resemble, too much, like a European slider.
When I look at a SCM Vanguard, Minimax, Martin Altendorf, Felder, they appear to me to have a unique design. I know Felder employed a design firm for their Format line. That costs money. The Asian machines look to me like they just took a European machine-especially the Altendorf-and just copied it. A friend of mine saw the Worx machine and thought it was an Altendorf.
What I'd like to recommend to Shiraz is to get some designers involved to establish a Grizzly footprint. Make it different and a bit unique in design. I think that will actually help sales.
take care,
John

[Jim Becker]

John, you raise an excellent point. Differentiation is good for the market, even when a good part of it is "style". Basic features on these machines will always be the same with some variation in implementation. But being able to identify brand/line from 100' away (and not just from color) is a very nice differentiation point in sales. Generally speaking, we can do that with Felder, MiniMax and a number of other sliding saws. That plus adding a unique feature or three is just good business. It works in the automobile industry for the most part, too!

Although the things I help sell in my "real job" are moving more and more towards software, it's very easy identify visually the hardware of our solution and our competitors solutions with just a glance. So I agree with your recommendation fully and sincerely. Definitely good for sales.

[Rafael Carias]

hi

Good points John, not every body looking for a slider can afford a europen saw.

A proprietary design with a different color scheme for it would would definitely earn good points for grizzly.

[Steven Wilson]

Todd - thank you for the tips.
Our sliding tablesaw business has gone through the roof and it is imperative that we know as much about what every type of customer needs and looks for in them. We will pursue your suggestions. At the same time, feel free to PM me about the widebelt sanders.
Thanks again.

Randy - Thank you for the business and your comments about my guitars.

Make sure your staff knows the sliders inside and out. Your tech support people will need to know how to help your customers setup these machines accurately. If they aren't set up properly they tend to become boat anchors. You may want to offer a commisioning service to your customers.

[Chris Zenda]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0501/images/2

This pic isnt too flattering to say the least.