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Mike Null
07-24-2007, 8:25 PM
I am bidding on quite a large job of engraving (routing with a pantograph) fence pickets made of Trex.

Presently I am the only bidder however the customer (a small city) will consider buying a router and templates to do it themselves. The job consists of engraving about 500 donors names in 3/4" high letters on the pickets.

I am wondering what those of you with CNC routers would charge per piece.

Also what you think it would cost the city to do the job themselves.

The material is being supplied and delivered by the city.

I'd like to get $10-11 each but am thinking that may be high. My quality will be much better than theirs.

Keith Outten
07-24-2007, 9:50 PM
Let"s see:

The city will pay between 9 to 16 thousand dollars for a CNC router or possibly higher. Then they must find someone to train or hire an operator that is already qualified. Unless they have continious work for a CNC machine it can't be cost effective for them to do the job in house.

Each picket must be routed with a name..500 names and 500 pickets or possibly multiple names per picket. Each picket will have to have a drawing done and toolpaths generated. Finally they will be mounted, clamped, routed, removed and handled/stacked in some kind of pallet or box for delivery.

Even laser engraving the pickets I think the ten dollar price is a bit light and you don't have to fuss with clamps.

If it was me I doubt I would worry about them doing the job themselves as I can't see where they could ever justify the expense or the time invested in the learning curve. Tell them 16 bucks each because you have to pay taxers and insurance....

Oops...I missed the "Routing with a Pantograph" statement so my comments may be invalid. Even so if you consider their labor costs and overhead they probably couldn't come close to double your price at $11.00 each.
I would stick with my $16.00 per picket bid if I was going to run them on my CNC.

.

Mike Null
07-24-2007, 10:30 PM
Keith

Thanks, never used a CNC machine and had no idea of pricing. Glad I asked because I was thinking you could knock those out in a few minutes each. My best time with set up will be 12 to 15 minutes.

Rob Bosworth
07-25-2007, 10:39 AM
Mike, why would it take 12 to 15 minutes per piece? Do the names run the full length of the picket, or am I missing something?

Mike Null
07-25-2007, 11:04 AM
Rob

I'm doing this with a pantograph so I have to load and unload the fonts as well as the material. I'm going to run a couple more test pieces today but I'm trying to calculate every step into the cycle time not only for pricing but to determine how long the job is going to take.

There are 500 names so it's critical that each character be replaced properly in the tray for the next use.

There is no free time on this job such as you'd get with the laser.

Even if I can get 5 per hour it's still a hundred hours.

Mike Mackenzie
07-25-2007, 12:50 PM
Mike,

Just curious why are you using a pantograph? Why not a computerized engraving system it would be much easier than type setting each name.

Garry McKinney
07-25-2007, 3:33 PM
I am suprized anyone would want to that to trex boards.

My personal experence with trex is they warp, twist and are only slightly better than properly treated decking planks.

But I would say the set up is pretty much in line mike. I think your pricing is good.

Mike Null
07-25-2007, 5:59 PM
Mike

I don't have a computerized rotary engraving system. I'm not sure whether I could run a 26" width with one but my guess would be I'd have to move the piece. (I also have to do that with some of the pieces on the pantograph.)

Garry
The architects spec'd Trex. By the way it engraves better than wood.

Mike Null
07-27-2007, 5:13 PM
Just an update. I found that I can do 18 letters and spaces without reloading the tray or moving the work. I'm estimating that most of the names will fall into that area so I should be able to get 6 per hour.

I quoted the job at $8.75 today and expect to hear next week whether I'll get it. Right now my Sept. schedule is open so I'd like to get this job.

Garry McKinney
07-27-2007, 5:47 PM
Price sound very fair , good luck Mike.

Dan Starr
07-27-2007, 6:41 PM
That only works out to $42.50 per hour. Why work so cheaply. I mean my barber charges $20 for abour 15 minutes and his tool cost consists of scissors and combs, my mechanic charges $85/hour, my lawyer $400/hr. Seems to me $16 ea was good advice, but that's just my opinion.

Mike Null
07-27-2007, 7:52 PM
Dan

I agree that it is a little low but from a tech side there is relatively little skill involved. All the layout is done by placing the alphabet characters in a tray and letting the stylus follow the grooves.

Some shops have a $12 per hour helper do this work. This is not to be compared to the laser where there is a level of computer skill plus an expensive machine involved. Nor would I do a silver tray at this rate using the same machine.

Thanks for your comments.

Garry McKinney
07-28-2007, 9:07 AM
Mike ,
I stated your price was fair, for two reasons. First you want the job to offset free time. Many companies accept jobs at low cost to or no profit to pay for the shop overhead. Sometimes this type of job can be a real value if it is long term, and you can fit other jobs in between.
But a shop that pays labor 12.00 an hour, their cost is much higher. an employee that is paid 12.00 cost the company they work for closer to 40.00. (osha, compensation, social security, ect...) Hidden cost are killers.

But we have a volume pricing system, 100 300 500 1000. If were doing 100 pieces of an item the cost may be 30.00 each at 1000 the cost may be 8.00. That is something you might want to cosider. It is a lot cheaper to set up for 1000 than 10 .

Mike Null
08-20-2007, 12:14 PM
Just an update. I received the job at $8.75 each. The piece count is 424 supplied by the customer.

My September is now full or nearly so.

Michael Kowalczyk
08-20-2007, 6:45 PM
That is of coarse with them supplying the material if I remember correctly.
That will be a nice job for you. Congrats!!!

I'm guessing that 424 names would be about a 5-6 day job on a CNC. Probably 2 days for the programming of all those names and making a fixture alone and another 3-4 days to route/engrave them. I'd like to have a few projects like that once in a while.

Again Glad to hear you got it,

Michael

Mike Null
08-20-2007, 8:27 PM
Michael

Thank you. They are supplying the material including pick up and delivery. I estimated 10 days but I have no real idea as I have never attempted anything like it. I did buy 3 new cutters and hope that's enough.

Now I'm going to try to recruit my 14 year old neighbor boy to help out with the hauling up to garage level and down to the basement.

Dave Fifield
08-20-2007, 9:02 PM
Mike,

In about 2 to 4 years, you will get another job from them to replace the cruddy-looking warped Trex with real wood or some other nice material. In my back yard, I have the remains of a Scout project that was made with Trex. It fell apart, warped and deteriorated in the UV. The school where the project was installed called us to come and remove it after just 3 years!

Cheers,

Mike Null
08-21-2007, 6:57 AM
Dave

You must be right as they have changed the material to FiberForce which is a fiberglass reinforced plastic. They have also gone from a 1 3/8" square picket to a 5/4" x 3 1/4" slat.

My next project is to rig a good vacuum system to my pantograph as this is going to be messy.

Michael Kowalczyk
08-21-2007, 1:18 PM
Hey Mike,(891)
Make sure you have a good mask and maybe a room air filtration system too. I am not sure how that fiber force cuts but when I see the words "Fiber" and "glass" in the same sentence, it makes me itch:eek: .

Thanks for the insight Dave. I was going to look into that material further but will hold off for now. plenty of other stuff to do now.

thanks,

Mike Null
08-21-2007, 9:22 PM
Michael:

I did a little shopping today for a vac system for the pantograph. I may hook up my DC to it if nothing else turns up but you're right. Whenever I turn on any of my woodworking stuff now I have to put on a mask.

If anybody knows of a used Gast system I'd be interested.

Michael Kowalczyk
08-22-2007, 4:14 PM
OK Mike,
Just looking out for you. Besides I enjoy our chats and it's better not to irratate the throat or lungs with that type of dust/paticles. Happy engraving to you ths September.

Mike Null
08-30-2007, 7:09 AM
Well, it's all off.

Yesterday I received an email from my customer that they had decided to let the supplier of the material do the engraving. His price was nearly $2.00 per board lower (1.90 x 424= $805.60) and my customer would not have to cut or transport the material. They will use a CNC machine.

My "customer" apologized for taking my time and the expense I incurred.

When I called the supplier for a sample several days ago they told me what their deal was with respect to this engraving and at the time I thought my customer should have run the entire job through them. I was tempted to tell my customer of this program but the $3700 kept flashing in front of me.

So I'm out about $60 for the original Trex sample and two cutters and a 100 mile round trip to visit the customer.

On the bright side, my daughter and her husband will be visiting from Germany and I'll have some free time to spend with them.

Thank you all for your input.