Hammer vs Minmax

[kevin g farrell]

I am a new woodworker (and first time poster) and just starting to equip a new shop. I was initially inclined to purchase a cabinet saw such as the Sawstop until I started spending some time on this forum, which I have found to be very informative, and now I am now considering a sliding table saw. I was in LV last week at AWFS in part to take a look at the various sliding table saws and combination machines on display.

I spend a significant amount of time at Minmax, Felder, and Laguna and would like feedback from users of each on the aspects of each line that in their mind differentiate them from the others. I have reviewed many of the posts on the topic of EFSTS, but have not seen much discussion differentiating among the brands mentioned above, other than some comments regarding the Laguna Robland machines.

I am sepcificall interested in the the advantages/disadvantages of Hammer vs minimax.

Thanks for your assistance and I hope that I hqve not opened a can of worms.

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Kevin, welcome to the forum, you will get alot of good advice here. At least you are skipping all the preliminary saws and going straight to the best. I have gone through to many saws to list from home made to cabinets saws, and finally to the saw that will buried with me when I die.
I went through the same decisions you are going through two years ago.
I chose Felder and am very happy with it. The new Technomax saw from Minimax was not available at the time I made my purchase, which would have made the decision alot harder. I love my Felder, but personally if it was between the Hammer and Minimax, I would choose the Minimax, it is a solid, no frills saw that will last a lifetime. just my opinion

The best advise I can give you ( Without knowing which models you are interested in )is to get in touch with owners near you and go check the machines out first hand. I think the Felder and Minimax are the best saws out for under $10k, you would be extremely happy with either of them.

[Jim Becker]

I own the MiniMax S315SW. Love it. Love the people at the company. This machine is heavy duty. And I particularly like the fact that it will still allow me to use existing tooling without modification to the same.

I also have a lot of respect for Felder, including their current Hammer line. Nice stuff, although the Technomax line from MM is more comparable to the Felder 700 series, IMHO, rather than the Hammer 500 series...but without the long laundry list of options that you have to decide upon.

You might want to add your general location to your profile as there may be 'Creekers near you that own these brands that you could get a look at and talk with their owners.

[Chris Lambert]

I liked the MM slider on the S315WS much more than the Hammer K3 Perform.

The MM has more standard features than the Hammer, though the Hammer is more aggresively priced.

Felder K-500 with X-Roll was smooth as silk, but it comes with a higher price tag. This was clearly my #1 choice if my budget wasn't restricted. I would have added the Hammer A3-41 Jointer/Planer to round out the shop.

However, after spending the last few months evaluating various machines and configurations, I decided on a barely used MM CU 300 Smart.

My advice is to evaluate your work tendancies (sheet goods vs. solid wood), (hobbyiest vs. pro) and your budget. You truly do get what you pay for in my opinion. However, please keep in mind I just concluded the purchasing part. The evaluation phase will be the next few years for me, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

Perhaps the usual suspects could chime in, Cliff Rohrbacher (Hammer), Jim Becker (MM), Paul Cresti (MM), John Renzetti (Felder and Hammer) as all of them have had much much more experience than myself.

No knocks against either Hammer, MM, of Felder 500 and 700 but all of these machines fit a price point.

Best of luck, and enjoy shopping!

[Paul B. Cresti]

Kevin,
First off I applaud you in taking the leap of faith and going straight to a European style machine. It may be very hard to swallow the initial sticker shock but at least to me the money is well spent. I have used every type of saw from a bench top through a slider and can whole heartily say "I ain't ever goin back".

You will get a lot of opinions on which brand is better and why from owners of both brands. You will get info from all kinds of salesmen telling you this feature is bettter than that one or this machine is better because..yada, yada, yada (remember that Seinfeld episode :D ) . Take the info you get from owners and file it under, "I like what I purchased"....take what you get from the salesman and simply throw it out, they are salesman and will tell you anything. Very rarely will you get a salesman that knows one iota about woodworking and what a machine can or can not actually do in a real woodworking environment....the only person that is this exception I know of resides at MM.

Oh I could give you a laundry list of items why I feel my own choice is better (MM;) ) and I honestly do believe that but remember that is simply my opinion through my experiences and viewing of both product lines. What I do recommend is: 1)visit owners shops and talk to them about their machines and maybe even try them out 2) do visit show rooms to check the full lines out of all companies 3) develop your own opinion and become your own expert......

[David DeCristoforo]

Felder vs Minimax? No contest...Felder. But Hammer vs the MM Technomax? I really don't see these as even being in the same class even considering the MM's somewhat higher price.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have the Hammer K3 with the long table. I like the machine a great deal. It's deadly precise and repeats like a dream. It's smooth and powerful: I can balance pennies on edge. I can switch angles on the miter fence back and forth without bothering to check the cut angle knowing it's dead on (accuracy like that took a little getting used to). I set it up square and it stays square - period. I can toss a huge 300 pound item on the table and rip or cross cut it one handed (OK I can't actually "toss" any thing that weighs that much but, you get the point).

I can't tell you why MM is or isn't as good 'cause I don't own both. You don't really get to know the finer points of a machine's up or down sides until after you have used it a while. Merely looking at one or having a few test cuts may or not help you with some aspects of it but like most things it takes time. I can tell you that I never heard any European slider owner complain about their machine.


Unless they have changed their packages, MM doesn't offer a dado arbor and you will need a phase converter ($300.00).
Hammer has a a dado arbor and a single phase very high efficiency 4HP motor that puts about every 5HP single phase motor to shame that I've seen. You can also order Felders with a single phase option.

You are in VA~?? There is no reason you can't take the drive to Delaware and take a look at the whole Felder / Hammer / Format line . They run a whole shop just so you can go try the equipment out and run 'em and crawl around in 'em.


The MM guy who posts here in this forum will try to find you a guy near you who will let you have a look at his machinery. The only negative to that is the local guy might not have the exact machine or option package you want but hey, it's a chance to see what they have.


Be prepared to pay more as you option out your machine. The adjustable support table is pricey but an absolute necessity the longer table is also necessary. I think I'd have got the shaper If I had it to do over again. The Hammer Shaper is (I think) the same hardware that Felder uses. Maybe John R. can qualify that. He really keeps up on this information.

I got scoring but have only used a few times. I got the Hammer three piece carbide insert dado and I really like it~!!

As an aside Ghudo makes some blades that work well without scoring on materials like oak ply.

Ridge Carbide and Forrest will re bore all you old blades to take the Felder or MM pattern. I forget if MM has a blade brake. Hammer does & it stops the blade in 6 seconds flat.

MM includes mobility with their machines. Hammer sells it seperate. I bought the lever bar ( $80.00) and made my own wheel assemblies. I ended up not using mobility for anything more than the final placement of the machine. I rather suspect that moving a slider around is an ill considered thing to take lightly. Once you get the sliding table set up and adjusted the way you like it you don't want to move the machine and risk screwing with the sliding table set up.

I can tell you that I almost didn't get the adjustable support table and the long slider and that would have been a mistake. I was worried about space. As it turns out my long bed slider takes up less space than my contractor saw. Who knew~!!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Felder vs Minimax? No contest...Felder. But Hammer vs the MM Technomax? I really don't see these as even being in the same class even considering the MM's somewhat higher price.

Mmmm You'd be surprised.

[Bernhard Lampert]

I own a Felder with a 10' sliding table and don't have first hand experience with either Hammer or MM. BUT when I went through the selection of what make and model to buy, I considered the same lot as you,. The Felder line stood out (at least in my mind). Having said that, I think that any of your choices are fine, all these manufacturers have a solid product.

Good luck!
Bernhard

[Jim Becker]

Unless they have changed their packages, MM doesn't offer a dado arbor and you will need a phase converter ($300.00).

As discussed previous threads on this topic, the MiniMax product has dado capability standard (without special tooling) and are also available in single phase. My S315WS is an example... 5/8" arbor that will take my existing Forrest DadoKing and 4.8hp on the main motor (single phase) and a 1.5hp scoring motor. Standard. No re-boring of existing blades is required.

[kevin g farrell]

Thanks for all of the input so far. I did notice that the dado assembly on the Hammer is constructed in such a way as to allow the sliding table to remain adjacent to the blade while on the MM if I am not mistake their implementatoin results in a small gap between the blade and sliding table.

Does this have any negative ramifications?

[David DeCristoforo]

Mmmm You'd be surprised.

No....I wouldn't. I am very familiar with these machines. And I can say with certainty that the MM Technomax is much closer in class to the Felder than the Hammer.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

No....I wouldn't. I am very familiar with these machines. And I can say with certainty that the MM Technomax is much closer in class to the Felder than the Hammer.

What does "very familiar" mean in this instance?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

As discussed previous threads on this topic, the MiniMax product has dado capability standard (without special tooling) and are also available in single phase. My S315WS is an example... 5/8" arbor that will take my existing Forrest DadoKing and 4.8hp on the main motor (single phase) and a 1.5hp scoring motor. Standard. No re-boring of existing blades is required.

WOW~!! is this new? I recall being told "NO DADO~!!"
when I asked.

If they had it they weren't making a single phase option obvious on the MM website when I was looking at them.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Thanks for all of the input so far. I did notice that the dado assembly on the Hammer is constructed in such a way as to allow the sliding table to remain adjacent to the blade while on the MM if I am not mistake their implementatoin results in a small gap between the blade and sliding table.

Does this have any negative ramifications?

I'd not mind the gap to much. After all there are practical limits on how small a piece one will be passing over a dado cutter. I'm most certain they will span the gap. With the Hammer ya gotta take a collar off the arbor and swap out the insert on the table top.
If you are not using the full dado width you still end up with a gap of sorts between the table and the blade. I haven't found it to be an impediment.

[David DeCristoforo]

What does "very familiar" mean in this instance?

It means "Don't worry about it." I'm not knocking the Hammer machines and I am a devoted Felder aficionado. But face it... Hammer is Felder's "budget" line and, therefore has to have a price point well below that of the Felder badged machines. That does not mean that the Hammer is not a good machine. I can understand your defensiveness because you own a Hammer machine. But I am simply suggesting considering the MM Technomax as a "better", albeit more costly, option for someone shopping for a new machine and who is willing to spend more dough. Let's face it. If we all had unlimited funds, we would all own Martin saws...right?

[David DeCristoforo]

...I did notice that the dado assembly on the Hammer is constructed in such a way as to allow the sliding table to remain adjacent to the blade while on the MM if I am not mistake their implementatoin results in a small gap between the blade and sliding table...

This is pretty typical of sliders in general. It is very difficult to achive a Z.C. condition with any slider. Most mfgrs don't consider this an issue because most sliders are used with scoring blades for panel cutting. I have never mounted a dado on a slider...that's the kind of thing I keep the Unisaw around for. I have said many times that a slider is not the best "general use" TS and this is one of the many reasons.

[John Russell]

Hello David,
It would be useful to understand what are some of the other reasons a slider has compromises as a "general use" table saw. Do you have thoughts about some of the other reasons?

Thanks,
John

This is pretty typical of sliders in general. It is very difficult to achive a Z.C. condition with any slider. Most mfgrs don't consider this an issue because most sliders are used with scoring blades for panel cutting. I have never mounted a dado on a slider...that's the kind of thing I keep the Unisaw around for. I have said many times that a slider is not the best "general use" TS and this is one of the many reasons.

[Norb Schmidt]

I'm relatively new to this forum as well - its a great place to get information and one of the best I've found on the EFSTS from a hobbiest point of view. I have a full MM CK350 that I purchased (used) over a year ago. I have also used Felder equipment (BF & K700 lines) at Kelly Mehler's ww school (highly recommend, especially if you want to enhance your skills on a EFSTS). But your question is kind of like asking what's better, a BMW or a Mercedes.

Just like cars - you get more performance the more you spend. Each (MM & Felder) have different lines for different price points. That said, all of these machines are/were designed primarily for the european cabinet/furniture business. The US hobbiest market is really a bonus for them and they really don't spend a lot of time/effort/money at focusing on it.

Items like Dado cutters are illegal in the European standard and as such, when they offer it for US purposes, it seems somewhat different. Dado's can be considered a shaper cut anyway, and if you buy a Saw/Shaper combo, it is unlikely that you'd ever miss it.

The issues I have mainly with my older machine (2001) is the small miter fence for the slider. There is no way to remove it and reattach it quickly and have it re-zero. All of the new machines have fixed that flaw.

There are differences in motors (4 horse vs. 5 horse, 1 phase, 3 phase), controls, blade guards, slider mechanisims, stops, fence designs, etc. All of them work great. But remember, sliders are a different approach to tablesaws. It is designed to work with the slider - on the left side of the blade. You won't see Biesemeyer fences (or clones) on EFSTS, more typically a unifence copy. You don't operate these machines from behind, but rather from the side. If you try to rip things from behind, the slider tail gets in your way and you will start to wonder why you spent all that money!

I don't want to trivialize the fact that there are difference (real) in the trunnion systems each employ. You need to look at both systems and be comfortable with the design and strength given your intended usage.

You have good advise and comments above by some very passionate people who - if put on an island and given one tablesaw - would all likely choose a slider - Felder/MM/Knapp - over any cabinet saw.

Sorry so long -
BTW: Where are all the Knapp guys anyway - did they all crawl under a rock or something - I saw that machine at the IWF last year and its pretty solid (more so than the company that makes them evidently)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It means "Don't worry about it."

That sounds more like an order and less like information.

"very familiar" is not an expression subject to close definition.
ERGO: the question.
Now it's sounding like a dodge.


Hammer is Felder's "budget" line Not so. The Felder line is an industrial product line, made to take the punishment of a team of brutes slamming 100 pound sheet stock on it all day every day playing beat the clock.

Hammer is engineered for a lighter applications such as small or light production and solo owner shops.

It's all a question of what you want to do with it and what you want pay for. One can always pay for more metal than one will use.
Using words like "budget " suggests a failure to apprehend the variations in application. It's like saying an F350 is a budget truck because a 14 wheel Mack dumper is so much more expensive.


I can understand your defensiveness because you own a Hammer machine.Now I'm defensive ?? I am merely insisting on correct application of terms and expressions as well as a logical approach to how and why things are made.

But if you have had an extensive conversation with the Felder engineering staff on this subject please do tell me about it. It might go a long way to shedding some light on the otherwise undefined expression: "very familiar."


Let's face it. If we all had unlimited funds, we would all own Martin saws...right?I don't know. It would be nice to have a strebig and a martin and a CNC machining center but when it comes to close in short stroke work (and I do a lot of that) I think I'd prefer to be pushing the Hammer table back and forth all day long rather than burning up the energy to move a table that weighs about twice as much.

Like I said things are designed for reasons. The reasons are not always so transparent. I know people who insist on carrying the biggest hand gun they can heft under their shoulder and they think they have something in their holsters. I also have friends who won't carry anything larger than a Baretta 22 and they are entrusted with the safety of a nation. Which is the "better" gun the Colt Desert Eagle or the Baretta 22~? I submit the answer depends entirely on application and whether the user knows how to use the weapon and can actually hit what he intends with adequate precision.

Things that are made well are almost always engineered with reasons in mind that are more involved than the instant appearance

[David DeCristoforo]

Hello David,
It would be useful to understand what are some of the other reasons a slider has compromises as a "general use" table saw. Do you have thoughts about some of the other reasons?

Thanks,
John

Mostly it comes down to this: Sliders are designed for panel cutting. They do this very well. In addition to cutting panels there are things you can do on a slider that would be much more difficult on a "fixed table" machine. For ex. I have mitered 12" rad. ceiling coves that were 14' long on my slider and I don't even want to have to think about how I would have done this without it. But, simple tasks like ripping stock, dadoing, tennoning, etc. are much more suited to a fixed table machine. I know there are those who will disagree so I have to say "Each to his own". These are my opinions and only my opinions.

[Jim Becker]

WOW~!! is this new? I recall being told "NO DADO~!!"
when I asked.

If they had it they weren't making a single phase option obvious on the MM website when I was looking at them.

No, not really new...a few years on both accounts.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Kevin,Like I said owners of each machine will give you the expected, "I like my machine best"...............by the way if money was no object for me I would own all SCM Vanguard machines....but in all honesty my work would be no better....but the machines would be really cool.The thing I would like to add is if you think one machine might lead your to woodworking "nirvana" you would be fooling yourself. As long as the machine is well built, remains set to where you dial it in to then it will serve you well. A 90d cut on a 10K saw and a 90d cut on a 45k saw is still a 90d cut. If people start telling you "I am accurate to the 1/256th", then guess what they are not a wood worker but a machinest or a tool collector (there is nothing wrong with that either). Wood is a natural medium constantly moving & changing and add to that glue ups and clamping...well there goes you 1/256th!....personally I am burnt out with these "debates" I like my stuff and others like their's and I could not give a hoot what anyone else says. Good luck with your decision and enjoy the research..........................

[David DeCristoforo]

OK...you win...whatever. I don't want to argue. Although I would venture to say that if you are looking at a "14 wheel dumper", an F350 would seem like a "budget" option! I am simply offering the OP my opinion as you are free to offer him yours. And thanx for the enlightenment regarding weapons.

[Brian Ross]

I just bought a SCMI 350N for $8000. It is a 2001 model and is rock solid. It has a 10 ft table. In the commercial shops a lot of the work usually done by sliders is now being done by CNC routers resulting in some good used ones on the market.A 1996 Altendorf just sold for $7600. on the IRS auction site.It was a 9 Ft slider and they are built like a tank.There is quite a difference between the 350 N and the Minimax. A new 350N sells in the $16500 range. I also believe that you need cabinet saw in conjunction with your slider. My .02 cents worth

Brian

[Scott Thornton]

I don't think you could go wrong with either. I agree with what Paul says, a 90d cut is a 90d cut (as long as it's 90d).

I have gone round and round picking out my machines. I ended up going with MiniMax for a bandsaw and jointer/planer combo. They are great. It was a toss up with the jointer/planer, but Felder opening a location in my state and a heck of a deal because of the woodworking show and purchasing two machines at once pushed me to MiniMax (the reviews and hands on experience helped too).

I will say this...if you're debating between machines and are favoring one over the other, make sure you get the one you'd rather have...needless to say, I have a tablesaw I've been trying to sell for about a year!

[tim rowledge]

Any of the options mentioned so far will do the job nicely and I suggest that in the end three things should decide the issue for you:-
a) your own perception of the price/value mix. Some people value the immediately apparent quality (fit & finish etc) and others want to examine the machining quality of the inner parts before they decide...
b) your perception of the 'quality' of the relevant dealer/supplier. I've had good experience with Laguna and Minimax. I didn't get much out of Felder. Others would rate them all differently; call them all and make up your own mind.
c) your actual needs, assuming you're mature enough to be able to separate needs from lusts (I'm not and hope never to be!). Do you need a mortiser attachment? Do you need dado? 5ft or 8ft slider? Blonde or Redhead ?

My 2003 MM CU300 suits me very well. John Renzetti's Felder suits him. Charlie Belden's Robland makes him happy.

[John Renzetti]

Hi, Not much to add here as all the responses you've received are well thought out and reasoned. A couple of years ago when I did the demo video on the Hammer I had a chance to really give the machines a good workout. This was the reintroduction of the Hammer line. I wasn't a big fan of the Hammer prior to that. I found that they (Felder) did a nice job on re engineering this line. The machines worked great. I'll tell you upfront that was hesitant about doing the video, unless I was sure the machines would perform to a high standard to justify their cost.
The best bet for choosing which machine you want is to first see them up close, try to see them in action. Decide which configuration you want. Weigh cost vs benefit. Then bring into the equation the intangible "warm and fuzzy" feeling you get about a particular machine. Then buy it. I don't think you can go wrong with either the MM or the Hammer (but I really do like that little 12" Hammer j/p).
I'm not going to be as harsh as Paul with regard to the sales personnel. MM has good guys-Sam, Mike and Erik Loza-that I've always received good feedback on them. Same with the Felder/Hammer guys like Carl Knapp, Greg, Andy, Erik Delaney are very knowledgeable and straight.
Have fun making your decision.
take care,
John

[Michael Tarnowicz]

Kevin, I recently rec'd a C26. Overall, I am disappointed with the purchase. Within two days of running the saw a cooling impeller fell off a motor that eventually caused it to overheat. The impeller is only held in place with a swagged collar. There are three Italian motors, none of which are thermally protected. Reaching these motors is no easy task. There are no doors in the cabinet. You must remove the mortising unit and tip the saw over on it's side (with a help of a friend I might add). If you have to remove a motor ( to fix a short as in our case) there is very little space to work your wrenches. And the motors are in the top of the cabinet, so you need to stretch quite a bit and use a lift to support the motor while your removing it. I tried to obtain service, but gave up trying and hired my own electrician.

Another important consideration is customer service. Calls to the office take time to process. Both times I called, the service rep never returned my calls. Only after getting his cell phone was I able to reach him. Thats right they only have one field representative for the whole US..and he seemed very busy to boot. What's that tell ya? Basically, he dodged my request for help and blamed the burnt motor on me!

Here's a few other short comings worth mentioning. The 500 max rip and 1 M slider are too small to cut a panel in half in either mode, in either direction. Also, an 80 mm saw blade projection means that at 45 the max cut is 56 mm...you can't even crosscut a 4" board.


If your still interested, I'll sell you mine!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Mostly it comes down to this: Sliders are designed for panel cutting.

I disagree.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55076
A small project with hundreds of very critical very delicate short stroke compound angle cuts that required tolerance control that I would have considered challenging as a machinist toolmaker.

The original sliders were indeed designed as panel saws with heavy cast iron tables. The modern crop of saws includes panel saws as well as full feature sliders that lend themselves very well to any sort of work one might have done on a conventional saw.



They do this very well.Indeed they do.


In addition to cutting panels there are things you can do on a slider that would be much more difficult on a "fixed table" machine. Indeed there are.


But, simple tasks like ripping stock, dadoing, tennoning, etc. are much more suited to a fixed table machine. I know there are those who will disagree so I have to say "Each to his own". These are my opinions and only my opinions.I have found that I prefer the slider for these sorts of operations. I still have my old conventional TS and I have not used it since getting a slider. I'm thinking of reversing the tilt mechanism over to the other side of the old TS and installing it on the operator's left side in the rear of my slider with a metal cutting abrasive wheel permanently mounted in it.

The only operations I won't do in my slider are abrasive wheel jobs where I don't want to have abrasive grit and metal filings in the bearing assemblies and gouges in the aluminum table.

But then if one has purchased one of the larger sliders one might very find it clumsy for some operations. I don't know. Paul Cresti has been asked this question a few times. If I recall correctly, I believe he uses his big huge slider for everything and (like me) likes it better.

[Wayne Watling]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David DeCristoforo http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=627967#post627967)
Mostly it comes down to this: Sliders are designed for panel cutting.



I disagree.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55076
A small project with hundreds of very critical very delicate short stroke compound angle cuts that required tolerance control that I would have considered challenging as a machinist toolmaker.



I'd have to disagree too. Here is a link to a small project I recently completed. After 6 month of use as a hobbist I now know that I did the right thing by purchasing a Tecnomax slider Combo (5 function). If you want a machine that just gets the job done *and you can afford it* then dont mess around with anything else just get it and be done with it. I'm a fussy customer and I'm very happy with the Tecnomax. Cant comment on the Hammer.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=54568

All the best,
Wayne

[Dick Sylvan]

Well......I have a Hammer combo about to be delivered, so I personally hope it's the best, but I'll probably never know the difference!!!!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David DeCristoforo http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=627967#post627967)
Mostly it comes down to this: Sliders are designed for panel cutting.




I'd have to disagree too. Here is a link to a small project I recently completed. After 6 month of use as a hobbist I now know that I did the right thing by purchasing a Tecnomax slider Combo (5 function). If you want a machine that just gets the job done *and you can afford it* then dont mess around with anything else just get it and be done with it. I'm a fussy customer and I'm very happy with the Tecnomax. Cant comment on the Hammer.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=54568

All the best,
Wayne

That is one howling nice lamp.

[David DeCristoforo]

Hey John... How ya doin? You are correct...this has been wrung dry and all of the machines being discussed are fine machines though I would not trade the KF700 for any of them (except maybe a Martin but that wouldn't have a shaper!) Made anything lately?