PDA

View Full Version : Amount of timber in USA



Greg Crawford
07-24-2007, 2:04 PM
I had heard that there is more standing timber in the USA now than around 1900. I can't verify it, and have some questions about the statement;

First, is it true?

Second, is that harvestable timber or is a large part of it in urban settings, parks, lawns, etc.?

Third, is there a lot more hardwood timber or is most of it pine and fir? I know in the South there is a fast growing yellow pine that is grown strictly for pulp, and that most home construction lumber is pine.

Fourth, is it because there was so much cutting done before 1900 and it took until now for the forests to get back into shape (kind of like the duck populations).

There are some incredibly bright people on SMC from an amazing variety of backgrounds, so I thought I'd throw this out to see if anyone knows the answers.

Greg

Joe Pelonio
07-24-2007, 2:53 PM
This is a logging region, though it's slowed down a lot in recent years. If they are talking about tree count, rather than board feet, then I'd say it's likely.

When an area is cut they have replanted. By planting a lot of saplings to replace old growth, the tree count is going to be higher, since they are closer together. Also, there have been areas planted with fast growing trees like cottonwood for the paper industry, in areas where there were no trees before. That would also affect the numbers.

It's misleading though. Here locally when a clearcut is done for a new housing development they are required to replace all those trees in the landscaping but to me a hundred 6' decorative tree saplings don't replace the same number of 80-100' firs and cedars.

Pat Germain
07-24-2007, 3:10 PM
I'm not an expert, but my understanding based on what I've read is there are indeed more trees and more "forest" now than in 1900.

Obviously, the number of old growth trees is going to be lower because you simply can't replace those quickly. Also, many trees have been planted in areas where there were previously none or very few: Phoenix Arizona, for example. (So many trees and shrubs have been planted there, it's no longer a low pollen area.)

Colorado Springs has an area known as Black Forest. It's a large area of assorted pines sitting among what is mostly prarie/grasslands. This area used to be almost entirely old growth douglas fir. As I understand it, the douglas firs were completely clear cut and the existing pines are what grew back. Many of the trees are quite large, and there may even be more trees than before the clear cutting, but certainly not old growth douglas fir.

Jim King
07-24-2007, 3:31 PM
Here is an interesting set of maps and other information showing the deforestation of the US.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/gg97rpt/chap7.html

Here is another interesting map showing the deforestation of Brazil.

http://www.globalforestwatch.org/english/interactive.maps/Brazil_Datasets.htm

Scott Loven
07-24-2007, 4:01 PM
I was in Vermont the week before last. A guy at a saw mill/museum told me that 100 years ago Vermont was 20% Forrest and 80% cleared, now it is the opposite. Lots of hardwoods everywhere you look, big pines to. There are stone walls out in the woods all over the place.
Scott

Dave Anderson NH
07-24-2007, 7:09 PM
Here in NH we are more heavily forested than at any time since the 1860s. This is due to most of the farmland reverting to forest when folks moved west to the midwest and prairie states after the Civil War where they could grow more than rocks. Farming in NH was always a tough way to make a living because of the poor soil and the short growing season.

John Shuk
07-24-2007, 8:21 PM
I don't doubt it one bit. The area I live in was pretty much clear cut to fuel the Foundry that made munitions for the US gov't. It' pretty amazing how deep one can walk in the woods and see stone walls that outlined different fields.

Greg Crawford
07-24-2007, 10:51 PM
The map that Jim King linked to answered one question. It appears that the 1800's was a bad period for forests. Hence, around 1900 was about the lowest amount of forest in the USA. It's good to know that popular domestic woods like cherry, ash, oak, etc. aren't going to become super scarce.

The web address for the Brazil map was also interesting. It looks like there is still a huge amount of forest left there, so hopefully there will be some good forestry management take hold and they'll be able to harvest great wood for centuries.

Pat Germain
07-24-2007, 10:58 PM
Interesting topic. I really lament the loss of chestnut trees in North America. I've never even eaten a chestnut and, supposedly, the wood was very nice to work with. I've read about people developing blight resistant chestnut trees, but I won't live to see them. Perhaps I'll be able to see them in the undending forests of Heaven. ;)

Jim Becker
07-25-2007, 10:26 AM
It's good to see that folks are not just considering "quantity" relative to the question of forestation...the makeup of that forest is also significant, so picking out the changes from what was "original/native" to what is growing now is good to look at. Some of the changes are due to natural causes, such as disease or climatic shift; some is due to human activity, such as when one species is cut and replaced with another. (Of course, some disease and pest problems have been introduced by man, too...non-native pests, for example, that have arrived through human transportation)

And it's also nice to see that scientists are attempting to bring back some things, such as the American Chestnut through careful breeding to reduce or eliminate sensitivity to decimating disease and pests. (FYI, Bill Grumbine has a mighty fine naturally resistant American Chestnut on his land)

Greg Peterson
07-25-2007, 11:50 AM
Can't say one way or the other. But Jim gets at the nut of it.

Quantity or quality.

Out here, logging companies would clear cut a large area. This made sense from a logistical standpoint. However, suddenly having steep slopes with no vegetation to retain the soil causes a number of problems.

The soil is eroded by rain and snow. This runoff feeds into creeks, streams and rivers that eventually feed into the Columbia. Because these clear cut area's lack shade, rain runoff is warmer than runoff from shaded hillsides. The temperature of the Columbia river has risen which has an impact on the salmon population. The fishing industry that was once booming has been decimated in part because the salmon not only have to deal with dams (adults swimming upstream and hatchlings migrating back to the ocean) and warmer waters.

Even though saplings are planted in place of the tree's that are removed, the diversity of habitat is greatly compromised (at least for a generation or two). A hillside of saplings does not a forest make. Again, back to that quantity versus quality argument.

I'll take a slightly thin old growth forest and all the biodiversity that ecosystem provides over any of the other alternatives.

Greg Crawford
07-25-2007, 12:41 PM
Greg,

I'd never thought about the temperature of runoff changing. However, when you start thinking about it, almost any man-made feature, roads, buildings, etc., will warm runoff more than a natural environment. It just makes sense that removing vegetation would do the same.

I've also lived in Washington, and the clear cuts were definitely an eyesore, to say the least. I understand the economics, and nobody wants to pay higher prices for lumber, houses, etc. In the long term, though, thinning seems to make more economic sense for the timber companies, as they can get a continous harvest from the same land verses waiting decades for another harvest from the same acreage.

Thanks to all for the great input and discussion. It's a lot of food for thought.

Quinn McCarthy
07-25-2007, 3:04 PM
Greg

Here goes my take for what it is worth.

There is definately more timber around today than there was 100 years ago. There are several reasons for that. I think that forest industry has a lot to do with it. If you look at the SE part us the US from Texas to north carolina there are million of acres of high production short rotation pine being planted. Most of the growth in the united states happens in this region. The genetics of the pines being planted there are changing so fast that the next rotation of trees will produce 20% more than the last rotation of trees on that ground. Stock holders in these companies want to maximize the value of their inventment so there is a push to make the rotations shorter and shorter. Many of the big companies own land in Brazil for that reason. It can grow faster than the SE. US. Today most of the big land holders in the US are sustained yield which means they can't cut more than they grow. They have to subject themselves to audits SFI & FSC) on their operations and cannot sell to mills that only take sustainable timber until they are certified.

As far as clearcuts they are not a bad thing if the species need a lot of sun to regenerate (Intollerant species). Pines are intolerant and are usually regenerated through clear cuts. Sugar Maple is tolerant and they can stay in the understory for many years and can be managed through selection cutting. They are not pretty but how they are conducted in a manner in accordance with state harvest regulations. I would rather have a clear cut in my back yard than a mall parking lot. You can't even take black top to a landfill. It is considered hazardous waste and has to be handled acordingly.

As far as old growth big trees or old trees don't mean that it is old growth. This term has been manipulated to fit the needs of certain interests. True old growth has 13 criteria that have to happen before it is truly old groth. Age and size are not in that list.

Sorry about the run on.

Quinn McCarthy
Forest Analyst FC Partners
Forester by day woodworker by night.

Greg Peterson
07-25-2007, 3:30 PM
I can't dispute much of what you say.

As for government regulations, those are certainly subject to manipulation as we've seen our here. One administration does one thing, the next does a 180.

Clear cuts are not without merit. However getting low cost lumber is not without drawbacks that we end up paying for in other ways.

Greg Crawford
07-25-2007, 4:38 PM
Quinn,

Please run on as much as you wish. That is exactly the type of information I was looking for, especially from someone "in the know". I was hoping there was someone with that type of knowledge that would respond.

Yes, clear cuts have their advantages. As a deer hunter, limited clear cuts make for better hunting and better forage in this area. I've also seen clear cuts not replanted and left to go to, for lack of a technical term, to the weeds. That doesn't appear to help much of anything, as it grows so thick no other plants can get a hold.

One ironic side note is that the endangered red cockaded woodpecker needs thinned forest for habitat, so the areas designated for that critter get logged in the Natl. Forest. The folks that don't want any trees harmed and all animals protected got a lesson in balance with that issue. The thinned areas help much more than just the woodpecker, too.

Sorry, I kind of got off track. Thanks for the great answer.

Greg

Mark Rios
07-25-2007, 5:03 PM
Okay, since this thread started yesterday and I''ve done nothing but research this issue exhaustively regarding how much timber there is in this country. My results?

A large buttload...............







:D :D :D

Jim King
07-27-2007, 11:08 AM
Mark:
This is one area where we in the Amazon have it easier than you have. As we have an area the size of the continental US that is untouched and has an average of 40,000 bf per acre . I think the contintental US has 6,048,724,000 acres as does the Amazon so the Amazon proper would have 241,948,960,000 board feet of timber.

I can see how difficult it would be in the US to determine a valid estimate as most everywhere has been harvested at least once and is in different stages of growth.

Art Mulder
07-27-2007, 12:33 PM
(FYI, Bill Grumbine has a mighty fine naturally resistant American Chestnut on his land)


Dagnabbit! I'd like to see one of those! :eek:

Yet another reason to wish I'd made it to his Five Barns picnic!

Hey Bill, are you selling the seeds?

Steve Clardy
07-27-2007, 1:20 PM
We may have more timber area, but the quality is really going down hill.
Plus the fact that the trees are smaller.

Take red oak, its really tough getting boards that are all heartwood, with good color.
Most have so much outer white wood on them, the color is just not there anymore.

Quinn McCarthy
07-27-2007, 2:28 PM
Hi again.

The Forest Service has an annual forest inventory (FIA) where they measure plots scattered aross the US. They measure a portion of them every year and plots are usually measured every 10 years. THe USFS knows at the end of every year how much volume is standing in the US. They publish a report every 5-10 years that have the total volume by region in the US. The plots are located across all ownerships and the plot locations are kept secret. So there is no bias in the inventory.

40mbf is an incredable forestwide average volume. In the lake states we see that on the best white pine stands and of course in the pacific northwest.

As sawmills get more efficient they are using smaller and smaller logs so in the end you get smaller lumber and more sapwood. High grading in hardwood stands where the loggers take the best and forget the rest is becoming more and more common. Most of this is taking place on Non Industrial private forest (NIPF) land. Most landowners don't get a forester involved so it becomes the loggers word that you have to take. In Wisconsin 85% of the NIPF logging was taking place without a professional involved. That's nuts.

Quinn McCarthy
Forester by Day, Woodworker by night.

Jim King
07-27-2007, 10:30 PM
We have a visiting forester from the U of Missouri here this week and he came back tonight with this photo. No idea what the tree is but it is substantial and not uncommon.

Greg Crawford
07-28-2007, 11:49 AM
Neat photo Jim, thanks for sharing. As a woodworker, I'm torn over trees like this. On the one hand, I can start imagining the great wood and the projects that could be made. On the other hand, I love those big trees and the beauty they give us while standing. Hopefully, there is a good compromise.

Gary Keedwell
07-28-2007, 12:17 PM
Just thinking philosophically.....aren't trees like people? Don't they have a lifespan? Don't alot get diseased and die? Trees and people get replaced. don't they? Trees have forest fires and people have plagues? Trees have tree huggers,,,do people have people huggers? (except the 60's, of course):)
I don't know. Seems like trees got along before people got here. I used to have a 300' driveway in the woods. If I didn't cut back the trees, it would "take-over" the whole thing.
If you really think about it, trees are more useful then people. When a tree dies, we can use it's remains for useful things that continue to "live" for hundreds of years. People's remains???? Better not go there.:cool:
I don't know...I guess it is good that we people worry about trees, but I don't think we should worry too much, I guess. I really like trees. I like most trees. I like most people ,too.
Oh well, just sitting here on a nice summer morning, doing some thinking before I go and do some woodworking. Gotta finish my deck.
Gary K.

Greg Peterson
07-28-2007, 1:34 PM
As woodworkers, we straddle a delicate balance between supply and demand.

On the one hand, we require woods that meet the functional demands of a project and want the aesthetics of the wood to add dimension to the presence of the finished product.

On the other hand we want to preserve for future generations of woodworkers the same or greater access to these wood materials that are so coveted.

When I see a tree as pictured above, my initial instinct is to leave it alone. For something to have defied the odds and lived to become such a grand specimen, it just seems doesn't seem to right to come along and in the space of a few minutes cut it down. There are plenty of other trees from which to choose.

Al Wasser
07-28-2007, 2:46 PM
Watch it Quinn --- Silviculture of Ponderosa Pine does not involve clear cutting -- lodgepole and some other yes

Jim King
07-28-2007, 6:13 PM
As unusual as it probably seems to the unknowing the tree in the photo is probably in the 50 to 60 year old range and is at any time going to fall over. When staying in the jungle overnight one constantly hears the sound of falling trees . The most difficult part of walking any distance in the jungle is climbing over all the fallen trees.

George Morris
07-28-2007, 9:47 PM
I have a house in tioga co. PA. this area was clear cut around the turn of the century , then the forest was a lot of old growth white pine. Today that area is all black cherry and maple,oak walnut . Most of the forest in our area is black cherry, The lands in the state forest are managed as a cash crop. Here they come in to sections about every 20 years and do a select cut . Not a bad way of looking out for our forest! George....

Frank Hagan
07-29-2007, 2:50 AM
I heard (somewhere!) that most of the old growth in New England was harvested during colonial times. Up in the White Mountains of NH, we visited a bridge made from a large tree originally marked for the "King", but left standing. It fell in the 1950's, IIRC, and they used it as a bridge over a ravine.

I have a 95 year old aunt in Missouri we visited last summer. We told her we thought the area was as beautiful as ever, but she disagreed: "Its all gone to brush!" All the work clearing the land by her father and husband did not last long. Less of the land is taken for crops there now, and one of my cousins, a farmer, told me they don't even bother trying to farm the areas you cannot get a combine into ... and those areas are now "brush".

Pat Germain
07-29-2007, 10:58 AM
I heard (somewhere!) that most of the old growth in New England was harvested during colonial times.

I think you're right about that, Frank. I know one of the objectives of settling the colonies was to take advantage of timber resources of which England had little left at the time. Consider most everything was made of wood back then: houses and almost everything in them, ships and almost everything in them, small boats, docks, piers, bridges, carriages. And, of course, it was the primary energy source.

In Jamestown, they made glass for awhile. Obviously, making glass required a lot of heat and a lot of wood. Jamestown today has a re-created example of the tiny glass factory. Of course, they now use natural gas instead of wood.

It's kinda sad to think of all the great, old-growth trees literally thrown into a fire. At least some of the houses and furniture are still around.

Jim King
07-29-2007, 11:45 AM
Based on this discription the Amazon type forests would be considered old growth at about 50 years
Old growth forest

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_growth_forest#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_growth_forest#searchInput)
Old growth forest, also called primary forest, ancient forest, virgin forest, primeval forest or ancient woodland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_woodland) (in the UK), is an area of forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest) that has attained great age and exhibits unique biological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology) features. Old growth forests typically contain large live trees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree), large dead trees (sometimes called "snags (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snag)"), and large logs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log). Old growth forests usually have multiple vertical layers of vegetation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetation) representing a variety of tree species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species) and a variety of different age classes.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6c/Muir_woods_redwoods.jpg/250px-Muir_woods_redwoods.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Muir_woods_redwoods.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Muir_woods_redwoods.jpg)
Redwoods in old growth forest in Muir Woods National Monument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muir_Woods_National_Monument), Marin County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_County), California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California).


Forest regenerated after severe disruptions, such as clear-cut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_cutting) or fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_fire) is often referred to as second-growth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_growth_forest) or regeneration until a long enough period has passed that the effects of the disturbance are no longer evident. Depending on the forest, this may take anywhere from a century to several millennia. Hardwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardwood) forests of the eastern United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) can develop old-growth characteristics in one or two generations of trees, or 150-500 years.
Old growth forests may be home to rare species which are dependent on this now-rare habitat making them ecologically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecology) significant. Biodiversity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity) may be higher or lower in old growth forests than in second-growth forests depending on specific circumstances. Logging in old growth forests is a contentious issue in many parts of the world.

Per Swenson
07-29-2007, 7:16 PM
Tree trivia....

Another Revolutionary war issue.

His Majesty's mast's. Wasn't only tea.

From the Hikers Notebook.....

The mercantilism of the 18th Century resulted in a boom in naval construction and a concomitant shortage of ship masts in Europe. To ensure the availability of the White Pine in North America, the British King implemented the so-called Broad Arrow Policy; trees 24 inches or more in diameter within three miles of water were marked with a blaze known as the "Mark of the Broad Arrow" and were called the "King's Pine." The policy was first implemented in Maine in 1691 and then more broadly to the rest of the colonies in the 1750's. John Wentworth, the Royal Governor of New Hampshire, was appointed "Surveyor General of His Majesty's Woods in America" with the authority to claim any tree for the Crown. By 1761, the restrictions on harvesting the White Pine were extended to all new land grants, an edict that, like the Stamp and Townsend Acts, exacerbated the increasing tension between England the her American colonies. In 1774, White Pine lumber shipments to England were embargoed, and in 1775, the American rebels at Breeds Hill hoisted a red flag with a green pine tree emblem on the white canton.

Belinda Barfield
07-30-2007, 7:52 AM
Here is a great example. It just happens to be located in my hometown, and it is a great place to visit.

http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/georgia/preserves/art6698.html

The original Moody homeplace was still standing, and Elizabeth Moody still lived there until around 2000-2001 (IIRC). The home and outbuildings were stacked floor to ceiling with almost everything the Moodys had ever owned, including rooms of newspapers and magazines. Elizabeth lived without running water until her early 80s, when a family member installed a hand pump at the kitchen sink. She live with only a fireplace for heat, and no AC.

Sadly, when the property was sold to the Nature Conservancy/DNR, many poachers were angered by the fact that they could no longer trespass to hunt on the land. An arsonist set fire to the homeplace and burned it to the ground. This was truly a tremendous loss.