1st post; Sheldon or Oneida impeller

[Todd Miller]

After 5 weeks of hard research on Bill Pentz's and nearly all of your websites (my printout folder is 2" thick), I think its time to tackle the shop-built cyclone project. I was very pleased to find this SMC forum and to recognize the names of many contributors.

Because I'm amp-limited in my shop (use the 30A dryer outlet for my subpanel), I ordered the 10A, 2HP Delta motor that will arrive Fri. (Note that eric the goodmember is now apparently aka totalauction on ebay). I'm now busy trying to finalize the best blower/cyclone design to use. Regarding impellers; I believe I'd like to go with the Sheldon 14" material movement or the Oneida-Air 13.5" radial aluminum impeller ($141.50). Any recommendations from the experts such that I safely operate the motor and achieve the best efficiency?

Also - I've sized and printed 18", 19", and 20" cyclone designs from Bill's spreasheet knowing that with 2HP, a slightly larger diameter cyclone is desired. Even though I design rockets by day, I'm not sure which combination of cyclone diameter and cyclone outlet diameter would work best to keep below the motor's rating while maximizing efficiency. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thx, Todd

[Jack Diemer]

Maximizing CFM is all about the impeller.

I am concerned that 2 hp may not be enough to drive those impellers. My unit is 2HP with the factory Jet 12" impeller, it works fine, but I think the goodmember's 2HP unit is only rated at around 10 amps, and if you go with a 14 in impeller, you are going to run around 15 amps. It will likely burn up over time.

As for the size of the cyclone, I think 18 in should be plenty. I would send Bill and email (he is the expert), he is more than happy to help out. He is a big fan of the sheldon, but I would say if you can find an the right sized impeller that fits the arbor, go for it.

<img src="http://home.kc.rr.com/jdiemer/Im000564s.jpg">

[Todd Miller]

Thanks for your reply Jack. I think you found the nature of my questions. The 10 amp, 2HP Delta is too small for the standard 18" dia cyclone with a 9" outlet (= blower inlet) assuming a 13.5" or 14" wheel. But, for safety's sake I wanted to use an impeller that has a 7/8" compression fit arbor that matches the Delta motor - thus leading me to the Sheldon or Oneida. So, I guess I was asking how best to tame the system down and reduce amperage; perhaps reduce the cyclone outlet (blower inlet) to 7"?? I will be using 6" ducting and 6" cyclone inlet as most of you do. And for cyclone size, Bill's site (and spreadsheet) mentioned that with a smaller motor you actually want to increase the diameter to maybe 20" for best efficiency.

Does anyone have a picture of the Sheldon 14" material movement impeller and have a part number?

BTW, I've been monitoring the progress of your cyclone system via the link on Terry's site and the additional pictures on your kc.rr.com site. Great job! I hope I can achieve similar results.

[Jack Diemer]

Sounds like you have done your research.

Making the outlet smaller (like Penn State has done) might be all you need to do. One of the reasons I didn't go bigger is because of ceiling height, but if thats not a problem for you, bigger is probably better.

[Chris Padilla]

I got the M/H from Paul at Sheldon's ("Paul Paton, P.Eng." <sales@sheldonsengineering.com>). $125 plus $35 shipping for me. You don't need a part number as they only have two designs for Bill: the M/H and the airfoil.

In your case, the airfoil could help with your limited motor size as it is more efficient but it requires care to keep it clean and it has a tendancy to stall if you close all gates while it is running. I think the airfoil is only $5 more than the M/H.

I picked up my motor ($240 to my doorstep) from http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/120554.htm. You'll see it is all set up for Bill's design.

I also picked up a proper magnetic switch to operate that hulk of a motor from Grizzly. They seem to have the best price and selection around. http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2004/181.cfm?

Finally, Clarke Echols has supplied me with the cyclone and should be shipping out my blower housing TODAY (yipee!) so I will have most of the parts to begin assembly very soon.

Now I need to find time to do all this! :)

[Todd Miller]

For a 20" cyclone, the additional cone length appears to be only a few inches taller. Ceiling height should not be a big issue for me in my 3 car garage shop (more like a 2 car). One concern I have with a smaller cyclone outlet to reduce flow (amps) is what that would do to the rectangular inlet geometry (4.5" x 9" being the standard). I'm worried about buffeting.

Chris: Thanks for the links - I've had those bookmarked for some time. I've shy'd away from the airfoil due to my expected laziness in maintaining that system, stall potential, and the difficult blower inlet transition required. I also had to pass on that nice Leeson 5HP motor because of its 20 amps. (I only have 30 total to my subpanel at the moment - won't leave enough for tools!) Congrats on the shipment of Clark's cyclone. That's another trade study I'm busy with - whether to go it alone or buy his..... Thanks guys.

[Chris Padilla]

Jack,

How is the noise level of the DC? I have this great fear that I will not be able to run mine very much due to noise.

I need to be very careful about mounting it to keep my house from acting as a soundboard for the DC.

I've also had thoughts about spraying the DC with that Rhino lining that you find in the beds of trucks (http://www.rhinolinings.com/index.html). I know it would dull the noise but not sure how much and it is pricey. Dunno what they'd charge me to spray my cyclone...they'd probably laugh me out of their shop! :D

Finally, what air filters are you using and where did you purchase them?

Thanks!

[Jack Diemer]

Mine is very quiet compared to my friend Scotts. He got the 5 hp Leeson and the 14 in impeller. Sounds like an Airplane taking off. Mine is actually not any louder than it was when it was a dust collector. The only problem I have is that I mounted it on a strecher between two joists, and it turns my lazy boy chair upstairs into one of those theraputic message chairs. ;-)

[Todd Miller]

Chris;

I may be able to help with sound deadening - I've built hi-end loudspeakers in the past and have done two hi-end car audio systems. Dynamat is often used to provide sound deadening on car sheet metal - others have mentioned it here for cyclone application. It's expensive but available at car stereo places. I've done the car & truck floor pan, doors, etc. going a different route using an asphalt, rubber, & other material sandwich roofing felt. It has a self-adhesive backing that is very strong for a MUCH better price - comes in big rolls. I found that it did as good or better job and was thicker. I can give you the name of the product when I get home to check it out. I was planning to line the blower metal sides and important areas of the cyclone with it - especially where the dust will first hit.

[Chris Padilla]

Todd,

I am familiar with Dynamat. There is also another product similar to Dynamat (a competitor) that I thought was a tad cheaper but I can't recall the name.

The roofing product sounds interesting...thanks! :)

So you plan to line the inside of the blower/cyclone? How about the outside, too?

There is a place about 3 miles from me that applies the Rhino Lining. I think I'll get a quote when I'm ready...just for kicks.

[Terry Hatfield]

Todd,

A Cincinnati Fan 14" impeller pulls 12.9 amps on my Lesson. Bill told me once you could restrict the exhaust to lower the amperage, but I don't know about reducing it enough to save 3 amps. Perhaps getting a 12" impeller would be a better answer in your situation.

Terry

[Terry Hatfield]

Chris,

I have a buddy that does spray in liners, not Rhino but some other one. I have often wondered about having mine done as well. I sure hate to take it down again!!!!! The big muffler/insulated flex combo has mine down to 82db @ 10ft. Not to bad. I'm not sure exactly what effect the spray on liner would have. Seems most of the noise from a cyclone goes out the exhaust. Mine is 93db without the insulated flex and the muffler. The 11 db drop made a significant difference.

Terry

[Scott Coffelt]

Jack Quoted:
"Mine is very quiet compared to my friend Scotts. He got the 5 hp Leeson and the 14 in impeller. Sounds like an Airplane taking off."

It's not that loud, IMHO it is quieter then the original Delta 1 1/2hp DC I had before. I don't have a sound meter so I can not give you the specifics, but I would venture to guess its in the low 80db range. You barely hear it in the room above, sounds like a low rumble. My TS is louder then it.

Of course Jack, it does produce more CFM then yours. :p

Heck if Terry decides to come up to the WW show next month maybe he can bring his meter and we can do a sound test. Besides, I know he wants to see my shop anyway. Right Terry??????

As far as reducing noise, you can do several things like add a muffler (a must), make sure everything is sealed good, isolate the Unit with rubber bushings, place in an insulated closet, etc.)

[Terry Hatfield]

Scott,

WWing show...hmmmm....perhaps a road trip is in order. :D

t

[Todd Miller]

Chris -

The sound deadening product I use is called Stormguard from GAF. It's a film surfaced, rubberized asphalt waterproof roofing membrane with self-adhesive backing. It is very smooth on the exposed surface and comes in a 200 sq ft roll. There are a couple of other manufacturers. Hard to find in SoCal - but if you need some I have a lot left.

I am planning to line the inside of the blower (metal sides) & at least part of the cyclone. Lining the upper cylinder, especially where the dust first comes in, will really help the life of the cyclone I believe. The product will also provide excellent sealing at any joints. I don't plan on wrapping the outside since I'll be using galvaprep, self-etching primer, and Dupont Imron for the paint job using my HVLP.

As for spray linings, I would worry about the texture those have - especially on the inside of the outer walls of the cyclone where the air speeds are highest. Rhino lining to me feels like cottage cheese. Line-X here in Cal is smoother, but still quite grainy. Note that any of these options are only going to help with the higher frequencies - not the subwoofer noise effects....

[Scott Coffelt]

Feb 13-15 here in Overland Park. About 5-10 minutes from Jack's place. You and Dennis ought to think about coming up if free. I know, I have not made your way yet, but maybe this summer.

[Chris Padilla]

Terry,

Thanks for the info. I am no "sound" engineer but the exhaust does seem like the chief area of noise. Perhaps all any coating/material would do is eliminate the sound of wood hitting the blower/cyclone and I dunno how loud that is.


Todd,

Thank you for the offer of the membrane. I'll PM you in a bit for how much I think I'll need and we can work things out from there.

The blower unit from Clarke is some pretty heavy gauge stuff...the darn thing looks/weighs like a tank. I think it would take a long, long time of wood waste hitting it to do much but it might help with sound to have something rubbery there.

Reading the Rhino website a bit, they say it can be applied "relatively" smoothly if necessary. It is probably all about $$$s I'm sure. This membrane Todd has is probably the cheapest way to go.

Grainger has some rubber hangers for good sized loads. Click here: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/searchcategory.jsp?xi=xi&category=%2FMaterial+Handling%2FMounts+and+Vibrati on+Control
This is what one might need to prevent one's house from becoming a sounding board. Maybe it could help with Jack's massage chair? :D Since I am not sure where I am placing my DC, I haven't ordered anything from Grainger...yet....

What air filter(s) is everyone using and where did you buy yours? Just looking for a good price, of course.

Thanks! :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

Todd,

BTW:

Welcome to SMC!! We never gave you a proper, warm welcome! :D

[Todd Miller]

Hey Chris; thanks for the welcome - delighted to be here.... :p

My reason for wanting to line the cyclone near the inlet was driven by what Bill said on his site where he has lined his, and that commercial units do the same. He mentioned some lifetime for 24 ga sheet metal due to abrasive dust (e.g. teak) will eventually wear through the galvanick coating and rust through. Not sure about the need to line the blower, however. I just thought it may help with any "whine" there.

For filters - most appear to be getting them from Wynn Environmental. http://www.wynnenv.com/cartridge_filters.htm They don't have the .2 micron dual torit package Bill used right now, but do have .5 micron Farr 300 sq ft model 9L300BL for $63 each. Not bad - supposedly good for flex hose too.

Terry;
Thank you for your motor input. I didn't know the 20A-rated Leeson 5 HP only draws 12.9A with your cincinnati 14" wheel and current setup (very nice BTW). I could have used it :( and still had enough amps left for my Unisaw. Maybe have to sell the 2HP Delta motor I'm receiving tomorrow.

[Scott Coffelt]

no wood should ever hit the impeller. With a cyclone the debri falls into the bin and the dust if any is shot through the impeller. I have checked my filters several times and there is nothing to speak of making its way to them, virtually clean air. What is left is so fine (.02 microns) escaping the filters. A heavier impeller will require a bigger motor or it will work harder to spin up. I went with an aluminum impeller and with 5hp (she barely works the motor).

[Jack Diemer]

Terry, you and Cheryl (or Dennis) are welcome to stay in our guest bedroom.

[Scott Coffelt]

That's an interesting picture, Dennis and Terry in the same guest room. If they are coming it looks like a trip to the store for brisket. The jerky didn't even make it off the smoker before it was eaten last time. :p