Laguna

[Gary Keedwell]

Came across this from WOOD.


In what can only be described as true irony, a company long known for making European-style machines and selling them in the U.S. for premium prices will now start making traditional American-style machines. Laguna Tools announced Friday at the Association of Woodworkers and Furnishings Suppliers Fair in Las Vegas that beginning this fall it will sell a “Platinum” line of machines very comparable to the likes of Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, and Steel City. Their first machines will be 10-inch, 3-hp cabinet tablesaws, stationary mortisers, and dust collectors. Other machines will follow. Laguna will continue to make its high-end line of machines under a “Signature” label.

Interesting, huh?:rolleyes:

Gary K.

[Jim Becker]

Hmm...very interesting to see how that works out. Can diversification from their historical core business work?

[Gary Keedwell]

Hmm...very interesting to see how that works out. Can diversification from their historical core business work?

I would think that it would be a huge advantage....after all, Steel City had to start from scratch.

Gary K.

[Kyle Kraft]

Did they state the origin of manufacture? Probably the same factory overseas where the Jet, Delta, Powermatic, et al are made.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Laguna will continue to make its high-end line of machines under a “Signature” label.

Like the band saws with the motors that overheat and the table saws that are made in the Check Republic and for which there is absolutely zero tech help? Those high end machines?

[John Renzetti]

hi Cliff, I got back from the Vegas show last night. It was a lot of fun.
In fairness to Laguna Tools, their bandsaws pretty much have the Baldor motors now. Haven't heard of one of them overheating. A lot of their Signature Series machines are made in Italy by Griggio. This next statement will probably bring some howls of protest but I think Griggio and Casolin make the nicest Italian machines in that size and range, for the real big stuff in saws and shapers you'd be hard pressed to beat the Vanguard line by SCMI. They also have some machines that are made by Robland in Belgium, plus a big edgebander they had at the show that was Italian made. I thought it was a Fravol. Their widebelt I think is a Boere also from Europe. I don't believe they get anything from the Czech Republic. You might be thinking of the machines they get from Stonoma in Bulgaria. ACM in Italy makes their bandsaws.
I think they had a saw like Gary described. Didn't get a good look at it. I probably thought it was the TS saw that they've been bringing in for a couple of years now.
take care,
John

[Steven Wilson]

Why would they want to copy 50 year old designs. Oh well, doesn't really mater to me since I'm not in the market for an old style table saw with anemic dust collection.

[Gary Keedwell]

Why would they want to copy 50 year old designs. Oh well, doesn't really mater to me since I'm not in the market for an old style table saw with anemic dust collection.


:rolleyes: Not everthing old was bad....not everything new is good.:cool: :)

Gary K.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

hi Cliff, I got back from the Vegas show last night. It was a lot of fun.

Hi John. Hope ya didn't lose any money while there.



In fairness to Laguna Tools, their bandsaws pretty much have the Baldor motors now. Haven't heard of one of them overheating. That's a good thing. The motors were the real weak link on their band saws.



A lot of their Signature Series machines are made in Italy by Griggio. This next statement will probably bring some howls of protest but I think Griggio and Casolin make the nicest Italian machines in that size and range, for the real big stuff in saws and shapers you'd be hard pressed to beat the Vanguard line by SCMI.No howling here.


I don't believe they get anything from the Czech Republic. You might be thinking of the machines they get from Stonoma in Bulgaria. I was thinking of their TSS the little tiny slider they make. I was looking at one. I asked the Laguna sales guy to explain a bit about the mechanics the bearings their size how many there were etc. He couldn't say word one - nada - zip. The only info he had was the ad brochure material and after that he was out of gas. So I asked him to get a hold of the Tech guys or a tech manual and find out. He told me there was nothing in the USA to look at and even if he could get one it'd be in Chech not English.

When I asked the Felder guy the same questions he took his phone into the tool shed got a mic' and pulled parts to answer my questions.

But that didn't stop the sales guy from Laguna from continuing to call. Eventually I told him I was looking at Grizzly's slider and he stopped calling.

Are they still making the TSS in Eastern Europe?

Mind you there is no reason the eastern Europeans can't make a thing as well as anyone else - - but - - I had a purchasing agent who used to buy end mills and files from Poland because they were cheaper than OSG and Nicholson I guess. About 90% of the time they'd break almost within an hour of unwrapping 'em. For whatever reason the Poles hadn't mastered metallurgy and heat treating.

[Chris Barton]

Hi John. Hope ya didn't lose any money while there.


That's a good thing. The motors were the real weak link on their band saws.


No howling here.

I was thinking of their TSS the little tiny slider they make. I was looking at one. I asked the Laguna sales guy to explain a bit about the mechanics the bearings their size how many there were etc. He couldn't say word one - nada - zip. The only info he had was the ad brochure material and after that he was out of gas. So I asked him to get a hold of the Tech guys or a tech manual and find out. He told me there was nothing in the USA to look at and even if he could get one it'd be in Chech not English.

When I asked the Felder guy the same questions he took his phone into the tool shed got a mic' and pulled parts to answer my questions.

But that didn't stop the sales guy from Laguna from continuing to call. Eventually I told him I was looking at Grizzly's slider and he stopped calling.

Are they still making the TSS in Eastern Europe?

Mind you there is no reason the eastern Europeans can't make a thing as well as anyone else - - but - - I had a purchasing agent who used to buy end mills and files from Poland because they were cheaper than OSG and Nicholson I guess. About 90% of the time they'd break almost within an hour of unwrapping 'em. For whatever reason the Poles hadn't mastered metallurgy and heat treating.

Hi Cliff,

I have both the Laguna 16HD band saw and the Robland X31 and would like to make some clarifications. First, as John stated, the band saws feature Baldor motors and mine has a 4.2hp Baldor that has never even gotten really warm in two years of use. It came to me in perfect condition and unlike many of the MM machines, hasn't needed the top replace because of poor castings and warpage. It will resaw 16.5" and never bogs down. The much maligned X31 is a true pleasure to use. It has 3 German made 3hp motors that have run perfectly. I did have a problem with the contactor relay on my starter and Laguna flew a technician to Nashville within one week of my asking for support and he drove to my house and replaced the contactor and ran a full diagnostics on the machine and made sure that I had set up the machine properly (at no cost to me). My X31 has operated flawlessly since then. Interestingly, most people that say negative things about Laguna in general and the Robland specifically have: 1) in most cases never even seen one in the flesh and 2) never used or owned one. Laguna bashing seems to be a new sport for the woodworking community.

PS: Roblands are made in Belgium

[jon claw]

I know that from my point of view I hope they are getting better at casting their parts. We've got a Laguna table saw in our shop that's about two years old and we've already been through TWO trunnions!! We're still using it but we're not nearly as excited about it as we used to be.

[Greg Funk]

Like the band saws with the motors that overheat and the table saws that are made in the Check Republic and for which there is absolutely zero tech help? Those high end machines?
Is it really necessary to make xxx inflammatory statements about a company like this? It's Ok to talk about a specific anecdotal experience you may have had but to make ridiculous assertions as above invites long mastabatory threads providing little useful information for anyone.

Greg (short on sleep and patience for annoying threads...)

[Art Mann]

Why would they want to copy 50 year old designs. Oh well, doesn't really mater to me since I'm not in the market for an old style table saw with anemic dust collection.

The obvious answer is they are interested in expanding their market. For every potential customer who is looking to buy a $3000 - $5000 tablesaw, there are probably 100 looking to buy a $1200 - $2000 saw. It is easy to jump into that arena since they can just hire the same Taiwanese or Chinese companies to build it that every other company uses. It will be interesting to see if that is what they do.

[Steven Wilson]

Yep Art and that's unfortunate. They could design an American style cabinet saw that had real dust collection (i.e. bring the shroud up into the trunion assembley instead of hanging a 4" port off the cabinet), and something useful like a riving knife all for less than a Sawstop. We'll see if they do or just market a different colored Chiwaneese cabinet saw.

[Chris Barton]

Steve,

My X31 has both a true riving knife and a below table DC shroud and that's been the case with Roblands for around 20 years. So, how much actual experience have you had with Laguna?

[Steven Wilson]

Chris, the post said they're bringing out an American style cabinet saw. That's way downmarket from an X31 or a Robland, Hammer, Felder, Knapp, or Minimax. Why bring out an American style cabinet saw? I hope they do better and actually design a new saw and not rehash 50 year old technology, we'll see when they have more details. So what's your point?

[Chris Barton]

Chris, the post said they're bringing out an American style cabinet saw. That's way downmarket from an X31 or a Robland, Hammer, Felder, Knapp, or Minimax. Why bring out an American style cabinet saw? I hope they do better and actually design a new saw and not rehash 50 year old technology, we'll see when they have more details. So what's your point?


Hi Steve,

I guess my point is "why assume the worst without any reason?" While an standard table saw configuration may be less expensive than a slider or combo I don't think it's necessarily "downmarket." There are plenty of folks that want and desire a table saw of exactly that configuration. The market will decide if they succeed or not. I've seen and used their TSS and it was a good machine. Considering the current competition in the Table saw market it would be suicide to bring a poor product to market.

[Ted Miller]

Greg, Do like I did when I started here, ad Cliff to your "ignore list", my list is getting very long.

My Laguna TS I have had since '93. I had two issues and both times I had answers the same day by e-mail plus tech support calling me at home that day as well.

I am going to add another TS to my shop here soon since business is out of control and I am looking at the new TS with scoring. My old TS will be for dados only...

[jon claw]

I think that it's important for the community to be honest about their experiences with a product and a company. However, I think just chucking out general comments about the country where it's manufactured and other statements about things that you have NO experience with is just not such a good idea. Lord knows I've read several opinions here about tools I would swear by.

[Jim Becker]

Chill, folks...this doesn't need to turn into a thread like that other, "not so chilly" subject, please. Manners, Please.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Dan Lautner]

Chris, the post said they're bringing out an American style cabinet saw. That's way downmarket from an X31 or a Robland, Hammer, Felder, Knapp, or Minimax. Why bring out an American style cabinet saw? I hope they do better and actually design a new saw and not rehash 50 year old technology, we'll see when they have more details. So what's your point?

That 50 year old design is still a superior method for repetitive ripping. A Festool is the best method for straight line rips because the piece is stationary and you see exactly where the cut is made. A slider is great for sheet goods but takes up a ton of space. A 50 year old table saw can also cut true 90 degrees to the table without the sliderraising the stock.

Dan

[Steven Wilson]

Sorry Dan I don't agree. That 50 year old design although good at ripping is horrific at dust collection, and a slider can perform ripping operations as effectively as the normal crop of American style tablesaws (PM66, Unisaw, General, et al).

Chris, when I was last in the market for a machine I looked at a number of machines including those marketed by Laguna - I was unimpressed with Laguna's representatives at the time (since improved I've heard). I am familiar with the X31 and familiar with the TS that came out in 2002 IIRC. The TS was a decent, modern version of the American style cabinet saw at a price that seemed reasonable (decent fence, riving knife). So Gary mentions that they're comming out with a new take on the American style table saw and that sounds something less than what the TS is. Which would be disappointing. Now, if Gary means a new version of the TS or the TSS (with the sliding table) that's something different and probably a decent machine. It just sounded like they were going decidedly low end.

[sascha gast]

Jim............get a bit firmer, this is going the wrong way:(


man, Mercedes/BMW, Nikon/Canon, slider/cabinet saw.................WHATEVER works for you. my 50 year old design PM66 is a gem of a saw and works for me. you don't want it, that's fine by me too, sheeeeesh

[Aaron Mills]

Just an excerpt from FWW's visit to AWFS and their outlook on the new Laguna items:



Laguna Goes Platinum
Posted by: Roland Johnson (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Community/ArtistProfile.aspx?id=1022)
Laguna Tools (http://www.lagunatools.com/) is dipping their toe in the big waters of China with their new Platinum Series. Positioned to bring quality tools to the small shop, the series will be Laguna’s first venture with China’s massive manufacturing might.
The first machine they are bringing to market is a three-axis horizontal mortiser that combines cast iron dovetailed ways for horizontal positioning of the 7-inch by 18-inch table and steel rods riding in a cast-iron housing for for-and-aft and front-to-back movement.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/uploadedImages/lagunamortiser.jpg
Laguna’s new mortiser. Photo courtesy of Laguna Tools.
The single-handle table operation utilizes ball ends for smooth, precise movements. The sliding-rod style stops located at the front of the table assure accurate mortises. A dual-position sliding hold-down uses a cam clamp to secure material to the table.
The maximum mortise height above the table is 5-inches while the cross travel of the mortise table is 5.3-inches with a maximum longitudinal travel of 8.6-inches. The machine weighs in at a stout 265 pounds and will retail for $995.00. The build quality appears to be excellent with plenty of adjustability to assure long-term accuracy.
Another Platinum series tool on the horizon is a 10-inch combination jointer-planer that should be available by early 2008. Specific details of the combo machine were not available, but the idea of a combo-machine scaled for the small shop is enticing.


It's already been noted that this is Laguna's first foray into the use of Asian manufacturers, but at least from the perspective of their mortiser, it seems to be a different product than the existing models. Grizzly, Jet, General Int'l, and Powermatic all seem to have very similar designs for their floor model mortisers, so it's interesting that Laguna has chosen a very different design for their offering.

[Gary Keedwell]

That is different...I like it. I think it will be a little pricey for some, but I really like the features. Big sturdy-looking hold-down, X --Y--directional so you do not have to reposition the part, and a sliding fence that will be good for angles. Very impressive IMNSHO.;)

Gary K.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, that mortiser really looks interesting. And it's priced not much differently, if at all, from the mortising accessories available for J/P combos and other combos. If it works as good as it looks, that one could be a good seller for its particular niché.

[Paul Douglass]

What I find interesting (maybe I'm wrong I don't know the history of woodworking machines) but here is another company expanding there products of woodworking machines. Seems like more are expanding and some new ones coming into the business. Does that mean, more woodworkers? In a way I hope not, wood is already too expensive and hard to come by. Some one needs to invent a material that really looks like wood, cuts like wood, has all the chararistics of wood, but is make from garbage?! And is cheap!

[Gary Keedwell]

Maybe the trend will be good for us. If they see more people getting into wood, could be more getting into the harvesting, too.:)
Gary K.

[Mike Wilkins]

Hey guys, lets see what Laguna has to offer before dragging them through the mud. So far I have only seen an announcement of a new line-up of machinery. No pics, no ads, no satisfied customers yet.
Not a Laguna pitchman. Just a satisfied user of a LT18 with the original motor that has never overheated.
Now lets get in the shop and make some sawdust.

[Dan Lautner]

"a slider can perform ripping operations as effectively as the normal crop of American style tablesaws"

If the slider is not dead flat with the table then this is not true. Also the large slider creates poor ergonomics for many ripping operations due to the encrochment of the slider. Sliders take up a giant amount of space and are not easily moved. Like I said, for fast accurate sheet goods I think the slider is great. If the American style saws all adopt a riving knife and improve dust collection I think they will be around a long time.

Dan

[Jim Becker]

Dan, I effectively have more space in my shop since putting in my slider than I had with the cabinet saw. Yes, it's bigger in some dimensions, but the space utilization is better.

Relative to ripping, you can't assume that working techniques would be identical in all cases. That's one of the aspects of the learning curve...unlearning things. And not making assumptions. More and more I rip using the slider, rather than the fence. But when I do use the fence, it's not been an uncomfortable experience...if anything it forces me to be out of the "line of fire" and think about what I am doing.

On the "dead flat" situation, a properly adjusted wagon is only a "proverbial hair" higher than the saw table surface so it's effectively a non-issue for woodworking. You would not be able to measure the effect, if any, on the workpiece.

I originally thought some of the things you state to be true...but once I started using a slider, I found them to be non-issues.

[Dan Lautner]

"Dan, I effectively have more space in my shop since putting in my slider than I had with the cabinet saw. Yes, it's bigger in some dimensions, but the space utilization is better."

Jim, Do you use your slider for most crosscuts 2 to 10 ft length? Do you have a miter station also? If you use your slider for cross cuts I think that would make it very space efficient. Do you use the your TS for straight line rips or do you use a guided rail? I think I will be in the market for a slider in the future but can get by with a festool, TS and SCMS for now.

Dan

[Steven Wilson]

Dan, I use my slider for crosscuts as well as rips on sheet goods, solid stock, or glue ups. I do have a miter station but I rarely use it anymore. The only thing I use the Festool rails are for drilling 32mm holes.

[Jim Becker]

Dan, for roughing down really long boards, I tend to use my miter station elsewhere in the shop just because it's easier to handle the material. (This is for rough workpieces longer than 6' or so) All precision cross cutting gets done at the slider with the integral miter gage no matter what the length. The stops are very accurate and the repeatability is outstanding. (You can really repeat your mistakes exactly, too...:o)

I'm ripping both solid stock and sheet goods on the slider at this point with a few exceptions where I use the fence for convenience...and those exceptions are becoming less and less as I learn to use the machine more effectively. I've already used it to straight-line natural edge material and my Festool rails only get used occasionally and largely just for convenience. I don't even keep the MFT set up anymore, although I've kept it for "job site" use, such as when I get to installing the cabinetry and some trim work in the addition. Everything I was using the MFT for in the shop is being handled by the slider.

There is one other thing I've found "good" in a sense...I'm working a little slower. In effect, the time I take to set up for a precision cut cuts the pace a little and that's safer in the long run. I feel like I'm thinking more about what I'm doing.

[Gary Curtis]

In March I took a woodworking class hosted by Felder. The teacher was Mark Duginske, and in two days, we made a front door. He did it all on a two Felder combination machines - a Saw/Shaper and a Planer/Joiner.

About 1/3 of the guys in the class own Felder equipment. Mark said that when he bought his Saw/Shaper, it replaced 5 machines in his shop.

I've got a General sliding tablesaw, and when I made my purchase decision I intentionally omitted buying a Compound Sliding Miter Saw and a vertical Panel Saw. I must admit that from the far right side (extension table) to far left (end of Crosscut Fence) is a span of 11' 4". And at times I feel as if I am moving from one Zip Code to another to retrieve a pencil. But, careful layout of the shop minimizes the wasted motion. And the sliding table itself often provides a useful storage platform for a few sheets of plywood.

Aside from that, I am free of clutter created by a Miter Gauge, a CrossCut Sled and several assorted jigs that would ride or be attached to the Rip Fence. That said, a full 98" (or bigger) Euro Format saw does intrude. I know one company that sold off their near-new Altendorf when their employees complained about the space it occupied.

Gary Curtis:)

[Gary Keedwell]

There is one other thing I've found "good" in a sense...I'm working a little slower. In effect, the time I take to set up for a precision cut cuts the pace a little and that's safer in the long run. I feel like I'm thinking more about what I'm doing.



Me too. I'm thinking more....it's called "old age":D :D ;)

[Jim Becker]

Thinking about was was or what will be? ;)

[Dave Morris]

<<<<(You can really repeat your mistakes exactly, too...:o) >>>>

Gee, I dunno if that's makes your mistakes any better than mine, Jim.... I've found that even my non-precision "un-exact" mistakes don't fit either. ;-)

[Bill Rehbock]

After finding very little in terms of reviews or user opinions on the Laguna Platinum Series table saws, I spoke with Ken at Laguna and got as much detail as possible on the construction of their Platinum Series Table Saws. After several calls and collecting more and more details, and comparing it myself to Jet, Grizzly, Steel City, Powermatic and Delta, I decided to buy the Platinum Saw with the dovetail ways and 50" capacity. Their current special pricing of $1875 and very reasonable shipping (partly because I'm not too far from Irvine) added to my willingness to give it a try. A few things that I really like so far that are not clear on their website:
The drive system is a wide poly-rib belt, not a 3 V-Belt system. I upgraded my old Craftsman Contractor saw some time ago to a poly-rib drive system and swear by it. I find that I can always feel the natual vibration cause by the "bumps" in V-belts that form around the pulleys if the saw isn't used for a while, whether there's one or three V-Belts. The poly-rib belt is truely vibration-free.
The trunnions and dovetail ways are huge. The machining is really clean and the operation is amazingly smooth.
I really like the the combination riving knife/bladeguard. There is no behind the saw overhang and obstruction, so you can have a completely smooth, gap and hole-free outfeed table.
The faces of the fence are solid HDPE (high-density polyethylene) rather than melamine or other laminated material.
The HTC HRS-10-EX mobile base (not from Laguna) is easily adapted to the saw and provides great mobility and is very stable in use.
The saw shipped well-aligned and assembled easily without having to look at the manual (see note below). Airflow for dust collection through the cabinet is really good; there's a sloped chute leading to the collection port.
Overall, I'm very happy with only a few small negatives: It arrived without any manual and it had to ship separately. I also wish that the motor cover door on the right side had a soft rubber gasket to guarantee no rattle if you don't cinch the closure screw completely tight. The deluxe miter gauge is nice, but requires a wrench to adjust the miter-fence. Also, generally, their website, espeically with respect to the Platinum Series tablesaws is horrible, with dead links and wrong videos, which is what compelled me to write this posting in the first place.

[Brodie Brickey]

After finding very little in terms of reviews or user opinions on the Laguna Platinum Series table saws, I spoke with Ken at Laguna and got as much detail as possible on the construction of their Platinum Series Table Saws. After several calls and collecting more and more details, and comparing it myself to Jet, Grizzly, Steel City, Powermatic and Delta, I decided to buy the Platinum Saw with the dovetail ways and 50" capacity. Their current special pricing of $1875 and very reasonable shipping (partly because I'm not too far from Irvine) added to my willingness to give it a try. A few things that I really like so far that are not clear on their website:
The drive system is a wide poly-rib belt, not a 3 V-Belt system. I upgraded my old Craftsman Contractor saw some time ago to a poly-rib drive system and swear by it. I find that I can always feel the natual vibration cause by the "bumps" in V-belts that form around the pulleys if the saw isn't used for a while, whether there's one or three V-Belts. The poly-rib belt is truely vibration-free.
The trunnions and dovetail ways are huge. The machining is really clean and the operation is amazingly smooth.
I really like the the combination riving knife/bladeguard. There is no behind the saw overhang and obstruction, so you can have a completely smooth, gap and hole-free outfeed table.
The faces of the fence are solid HDPE (high-density polyethylene) rather than melamine or other laminated material.
The HTC HRS-10-EX mobile base (not from Laguna) is easily adapted to the saw and provides great mobility and is very stable in use.
The saw shipped well-aligned and assembled easily without having to look at the manual (see note below). Airflow for dust collection through the cabinet is really good; there's a sloped chute leading to the collection port.
Overall, I'm very happy with only a few small negatives: It arrived without any manual and it had to ship separately. I also wish that the motor cover door on the right side had a soft rubber gasket to guarantee no rattle if you don't cinch the closure screw completely tight. The deluxe miter gauge is nice, but requires a wrench to adjust the miter-fence. Also, generally, their website, espeically with respect to the Platinum Series tablesaws is horrible, with dead links and wrong videos, which is what compelled me to write this posting in the first place.

Bill,

Thanks for the post. We'd love to see pictures.

[Peter Quinn]

I have ordered their horizontal slot mortiser, platinum series. They told me the first shipment was coming in mid march and had been sold in pre-order, I'm on a list for the second shipment early April? Do they actually have most of the platinum machines they advertise?

Their web site is bizaar--great pictorial preview there one day, gone the next. They sent me a video that is really tough to watch for more than 2 minutes, very boring though informitive.

Nice to hear that the TS is the goods and you like it. Congrats.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Bill, could't agree with you more about their website. They need to spend some money on it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have ordered their horizontal slot mortiser, platinum series. They told me the first shipment was coming in mid march and had been sold in pre-order, I'm on a list for the second shipment early April? Do they actually have most of the platinum machines they advertise?

Their web site is bizaar--great pictorial preview there one day, gone the next. They sent me a video that is really tough to watch for more than 2 minutes, very boring though informitive.

Nice to hear that the TS is the goods and you like it. Congrats.

Peter, I nearly did that too, but balked at the wait. Now I'm kicking myself for not signing up. Plan to get on the list for the slot mortiser soon though.