Shop renovation -- What do I do?

[Nathan Conner]

Hey, guys. I've been lurking for awhile, and love all the advice. I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring and ask for some shop advice, though I need loads of it in most areas.

We have a couple of acres near Mt St. Helens in Southwest Washington. On the top acre is the house, and on the bottom acre is the...uhhh..."Shop". It's a converted (poorly) 24'x24' pole barn that was renovated into a hobby auto shop, then we bought the place, and it was my dream shop. 12' - 14' ceiling, wood stove, epoxy-over-concrete floor. It is a good 75 yards from the house, on the only flat spot on the lower 1/2 of the property, in the midst of huge old blue spruces and cedars.

What started as a wood-post, tin-sided and -roofed pole barn was converted...mostly. They left gaps at the top of the wall-joists (6", all the way around), left the roof tin (you look up from inside, and that's all you see), the gable ends are simply translucent plastic corrugation (again, that's what you see from the inside, too!) The power was unacceptable - being so far from the house and poorly run, I could kick the breaker at the house by running a skil saw.

First thing we did was upgraded the power. Had some electricians come out and ran huge cables for a 100-amp single-phase box down there. Ok, compressor runs, saws are good, lighting is great.

So, after using it a couple of years, it's become apparent that it's not going to do it for me as it sits. With the tin roof (in moderate condition, but uninsulated), there's constant moisture. I can't actually work on any projects from October thru July (our rainy season) because of the moisture, both in the air, in the wood, and on the tools. I end up spending the first 1/2 hour of each session scrubbing at all the tables with WD-40 and ScotchBrite, and then re-waxing them. I've got rust spots on all of the cast tables (bandsaw, jointer, tablesaw, lathe ways, etc.), and it's ruining my tools. It's gotten to the point now that I'm finding pine needles stuck in things after a bit of wind. Now, there's mold growing through the sheetrock at one gable-end. (*groan*)

We've considered putting money into knocking this one down and putting something 2-story up in its place. But the costs are prohibitive. I can see doing all the sheetrock/electrical/finish work, but I'm not much of a framer. By myself, I can't repair the roof - sheeting's too heavy, it's too high, too hard to get a small lift in there (you need 4x4 to get up to the shop from the gravel access road), and too much of a project for me, I'm afraid.

It's an old building, as far as pole barns go -- 25 years or so. It's godawful ugly, and deafening when it rains...which is most of the time around here. But it's my SHOP! I love it, despite all the faults.

I've got a few weeks of vacation coming up at work, and am not even sure where to start. It feels overwhelming at this point. But I've got to protect the tools, I've got to be able to heat it.

So...where DO I start? Get a contractor out here? I've had two, so far, for estimates. We can't reasonably see spending more than $10k getting it remodeled, as a new pole barn exactly like this one is only $5k (Of course, that won't solve our problems, either). The roofing estimates I've gotten (R&R the entire thing, rolled shingle roofing to replace this, leave insulating and gable-ends to me) are $5k and change.

It seems that sealing/insulating will at least give me a good base to be able to repair and use the shop. Duh. But are there cheaper/temporary options that may help out? I have another building (a converted garage, no real power to speak of, just studs and siding) that's about 18x20 that would work for temporary storage or...as my new shop. Gaaah. I hate to lose the square footage, as I feel cramped as is in the big one. And, it's very near the house, so the noise factor is still an issue.

Man, I feel like I'm telling my life story. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

My concerns are: money, tools, comfort...in that order. I can live with being uncomfortable and repairing the tools and running the woodstove often if it's too damned expensive to repair, and instead I have to save my money for 3 or 4 years and have a real shop put up. Or, I would love to get this thing workable and be able to work in a nice, comfy shop, if there's a labor-intensive way I can fix it.

This all boils down to a few questions, now that you know what I'm up against. 1. Is there a way to repair/replace the roof that will magically work? Some combination of Tyvek, roofing tar, and foam insulation that will fix this flimsy, 2x6 on 24" tin roof? 2. Is it worth all of our budgeted savings to have a roofer come out and just get it done, so I can focus on woodwork? 3. Should I just repair a bit and then limp along for a few years in the hopes of getting a new shop at some point? 4. I sold my bandsaw last week, in the hopes of purchasing that Laguna 18" I've had my eye on, but...when SWMBO and I discussed it, she reminded me that I may have the only rusty Laguna in the entire country come November. And that would make me cry. A lot. So, no bandsaw until the shop's repaired, replaced...whatever. And, of course, the Laguna would come out of the $5k budget, so that may have to wait until next year...or the year after. 5. I can R&R the sheetrock, so that's not a big deal, but...again, it doesn't make sense to do that until this is relatively watertight and humidity-controlled.

Any advice or comments would be appreciated. I'm sure someone, somewhere has gone through this before.

[Jim Becker]

Instead of tackling the roof, itself...assuming it's sound, why not put in a flat ceiling that you can insulate? That would make the space heatable for the winter and more comfortable in the summer. It would also deaden the "tap-tap" when it's raining. And it's likely something you can do yourself.

Oh, and welcome to the posting side of SMC!

[Nathan Conner]

I re-read, and some things I forgot to mention. The renovation work they did consisted of sheetrocking and insulating everything from the top of the 4 walls down. It's a given that I'll have to repair the 6" gaps at the top of the walls - I may do that today.

Also, there are, at the front of the shop, two huge garage doors - one wood frame-and-panel that's about 8x10, and another insulated steel that's 10x10 (with broken spring). We're thinking of removing the 8x10, and replacing with an insulated wall, then repairing the insulated one. This smart? Or is the wooden one (more aesthetic, for sure) insulation enough & a better keeper?

When I first got here, I invested about $750 in new chipboard/laminate cabinets all the way around - they are literally DRIPPING off the walls. Three of the 10 have fallen down (or leaped off the wall in hope of a better life in some other place). They'll all have to be junked.

[Jim Becker]

On the doors, if you don't need both, than removing one and replacing with a wall isn't a horrible idea. And don't forget windows for natural light. They can be higher on the wall if you are concerned with space.

Proper insulation up above should help with your moisture problem...hopefully it's that and not real leaks.

[Nathan Conner]

That's an awesome idea! Two concerns, and maybe they're easily addressed.

First, If I do nothing to the roof, where would the water (that now drips in in 30 spots) go? Could I staple tyvek to the interior of the rafters and at least route it back outside? Would I crawl around on the roof with tar and repair the leaks, then put in the ceiling, so it can last?

Second, and again, maybe this is easy, because of the nature of this pole building, there's no center support (except a single vertical 8x8) due to the fact that the single beam is along the roofline. Do I need to just tack a (floating?) ledger board between the center post and the front/back end posts as the 12' point across the room?

You know what, that doesn't make any sense to ask, since no one has seen it.

That's a great idea, though - I'll go look and see if I can figure out the mechanics of it.

[Brian Weick]

Nathen,
If I were you , and the building (framing & Foundation) are rock solid- re-do the roof- (not rolled roofing) if it is 24" oc roof joists install a new joists in between ,after the old roofing has been removed, to give you 12"oc -baffle and insulate it if you have soffit overhangs for ventilation /then a 3mill Polly beerier stapled to the joists to seal everything up then moisture resistant drywall (fire coded) - use a good architectural shingle 30 year at least. and a ridge vent the entire length of the peak. this system is the most efficient and will allow good circulation of the roof and will actually help the life of the roofing material.
insulate the wall cavities- if you can't put craft faced insulation in, you cellulose blown insulation and that can be done from either inside or outside and then plugged where the ports were drilled for the blower nozzle.
I would definitely heat the building- get a good gas/propane heater- they are fairly inexpensive and work well. If you can do most of this with a Friend that will help you I figure it will cost you under $6,000.00 and that includes the heater. It may even be less than that figure I quoted you.
I have to agree with your wife- you are putting the cart before the horse by purchasing more tools before you rectify this problem- moisture is nothing but a PITA and will effect everything you have in the shop.
If it is not a stable foundation and frame building- then I would tear it down and start over but if you can repair the building with substantial savings and overall revive it back to a rock solid building then - go that route.

I hope my input helped and I can understand your dilemma , but you have to start at the crux of the problem and go from there:)

[Brian Weick]

Instead of tackling the roof, itself...assuming it's sound, why not put in a flat ceiling that you can insulate? That would make the space heatable for the winter and more comfortable in the summer. It would also deaden the "tap-tap" when it's raining. And it's likely something you can do yourself.

Oh, and welcome to the posting side of SMC!


Yes - I would agree with that thought as well Jim- not a bad idea but there are two areas that are drawbacks to that:
One being he has lost open space which could be planned and utilized wisely.
Two is the roof itself and the functioning and efficiency of the building as far as breathing and insulating - the roof (if in bad shape) will have to be addressed in the long run and should be done properly . If he is doing this to avoid the real proble-the roof he is going to be shelling out more money in the long run- putting that ceiling up and then later the roof- think about it? not a wise plan. It is a good idea, don't get me wrong- I like it! but as soon as I read "DRIPPING" in his thread- not good!

You have a great idea Jim but I must say (as a former General contractor) he really should do it write the first time and not try to cut corners - you have to face the music sometime and delaying the problem will only result in dire consequences later in time. this is only my opinion as far as how I would address this problem if it were mine.

[Todd Jensen]

At the end of the day when you're falling asleep, may it be of some consolation that you've given me hope, and are living on my dream property. :) I'm only 150 miles away or so, but it feels like a million.:rolleyes:
As far as your project, I say button up what you've got first so that you're storm and rain proof - the shop isn't much of a relaxing haven with moisture problems, and in our beautiful Cascades that means not much relaxing until you get the roof fixed. Good luck, and I'm hoping you might post some pictures of your property and the shop.

[Nathan Conner]

So, I agree that it will have to be addressed sometime. What if I consider this a temporary measure - to protect the tools for the next couple of years - with the plan of putting up a real...nice...functional shop in its place within the next 4 or 5 years? Would Jim's idea alleviate the dripping/moisture problems in the near-term enough for me to live with it for a few years?

Or is it only going to last a year or so before I'm whining again? :)

Spending the money to have someone else re-roof now IS an option, and would solve the problem immediately without me having to do all that much labor. Just insulation, cleanup and then enjoyment. It's attractive from that POV, at least.

[Brian Weick]

Nathan,
If you have a roof problem now- it will only get worse as time goes on-putting that sub ceiling up isn't really solving anything- it deflects the issue and isn't solving the problem it is "Deflecting the problem".
If you want a solid and functional shop - do it write and you won't regret it one bit- do it in phases and like I said - get some Friends to help and you will save a lot of money and you will also have the satisfaction of doing it yourself and you will know it was done write and it will last the test of time. It isn't that difficult- get up there, rip that tin roof off , put in the roof joists (if it is 24" oc) install new 1/2" plywood (not-OSB-not a big fan of that for roof sheathing) install ice and water shield on the eves, use #30lb felt instead of #15 , the price difference is hardly noticeable because it is a small roof project, cut the peak vent gap (3-1/2) for the ridge vent (not rolled venting- vinyl 4' sections with filtering screen) install drip edging on the eves and rake edge on the gables or go with drip edge all the way around - that will extend the roofing 1" all the way around and will look nice as well. install a good 30yr shingle and your finished. you can tackle the baffles and insulation for the roof rafters from the inside. But at least you will be able to feel comfortable about your shop not leaking anymore. YOU CAN DO THIS! Just do it write and you will be glad you did the proper planing and construction.:)
Brian

[Nathan Conner]

Hey, Todd. Thanks for the encouragement. I hadn't looked at it like that. And, great idea on the photos - I ran down and took some. Here are a bunch that may help get an idea of what I'm working with.

Ick. It looks worse than I thought in photo form. (*sigh*)

More opinions after seeing pictures, anyone?

http://picasaweb.google.com/nathanconner/72107Shop

[Brian Weick]

Nathan,
My responses to your thread are correct- RIP that noisy leaky roof of and go with the new roof- that's my input and definitely seal up those gable ends- no surprise you have moisture problems- looks like you have some solid ground and framing to work with - I would definitely do the fabrication of the roofing joists and roof that puppy- you will be smiling from ear to ear the next time it rains!:)

[Jim Becker]

Brian, I believe I just wasn't clear enough...in a round about way, I did indicate that the roof needed to be sound before considering an interior ceiling. I did a poor job of that and thanks for being more to the point. A bad roof needs attention first.

[Jim O'Dell]

Have you identified where the water leaks in the roof? With the skylights, there are extra seams that water can get into. If the material is sound, it is possible to reseal things to get it weather tight. If the material is bad, definately replace it. The roof is your first concern. The gable ends are clear plastic panels? At least trim the edges with wood and caulk the heck out of it, inside and out to weather proof it. Again, if the panels are damaged, take them out and stud in walls, sheath it inside and out, again making sure the seams are caulked and weather proof. THEN work on the inside. A false ceiling with insulation would make the most sense. Might be able to do a drop in ceiling, and have insulation on top of that. Both would help on noise and temperature control. Jim.

[Kyle Kraft]

Nathan,
Looks like you have a solid building to start with. I'd rip off the roof steel and put another purlin between the existing ones, apply 1/2" CDX and the shingle roof (with ridge vent) of your choice. I can't see the benefit of adding more rafters...the existing look plenty beefy. Then I'd box in those overhangs at the eaves with some perforated soffit material. Next would be to re do the gable ends with an attractive material. Back at the ceiling, I would install vent chutes from the wall to the ridge on the underside of the roof deck, then 6" of fiberglass insulation covered with more white pole barn steel, my personal ceiling of choice due to its speed of installation and low maintenance.

[Brian Weick]

i don't mean to step on your toes- not at all but Without even looking at the roof joist deflection rate specification /joist used/wood specification/and span I would not recommend just Purlins , He is going to need a more substantial roof joist framing application than 24"oc considering the weight factor , if he doesn't fill the gap there is bound to be some deflection not only in the roof Field but also between the joists causing a sag with 1/2" CDX - If it were me - I would not gamble - your only talking 12 joists at the high end price $130.00 - well worth going the extra mile with a project that you would want to last as long as possible. :)
Brian

[Matt Meiser]

I agree with the others--replace the roof. Then properly insulate, then do any necessary interior repair. If you have mold, rip out whatever is moldy and any wet insulation.

Our previous house had an addition built on the back of the garage for storage. Its metal roof sweated any time it was humid and the roof was cooler than the interior air, which meant virutally any time it rained since the rainwater cooled the roof. I installed foil-faced insulation board over the entire ceiling which helped quite a bit but didn't solve the problem. When we were looking for our new house, I looked at one that had a really nice pole barn with a metal roof and it had evidence of dripping as well.

For interior finish on the ceiling of my shop I used non-warrantied steel. It is supposedly the same as the exterior stuff, just sold without a warranty. the insulation is between the steel and the roof deck. Mine has an attic because it has prefab trusses, but I don't see why you couldn't put up steel on the sloped ceiling. I was a little worried about noise, but I don't think it is a significant problem since i have 12' ceilings. The main reason I chose it is that it goes up easy, and in one step. No taping and painting like drywall. I highly recommend renting scaffolding for your ceilings. It cost me about $75/week and saved me a ton of ladder climbing.

As to the doors, I'd leave one big door if one or the other is in good shape and insulated. The nice things about them are that they really open up the shop in nice weather and they make deliveries of large items easy. The bad thing is that they let in cold air in the winter and let out the cool air if you install A/C. I have a 12x12 insulated door in my shop (existing when when we moved in.) I thought I'd probably replace it with something like an 8x8 eventually, but twice I've had deliveries made right into the shop that wouldn't have been possible with a smaller door. If you think you might eventually sell, having a big door will make it more attractive to someone wanting to get cars/boats/tractors/etc. in there.

For the sides, The metal can look really nice. I really like the two-tone look that Morton uses. You could redo the outside with neatly installed and trimmed steel. Alternately, you could resheet it with OSB and put up vinyl siding. The good thing about vinyl is when you mess up a piece mowing you can easily replace just one piece. The two-tone steel is partly to allow replacing just the bottom too.

When you take out all those skylights and replace the transulcent stuff on the ends, your shop is going to get really dark. I'd add some windows and maybe consider a couple well made skylights. We have a couple in our house and they really brighten things up.
All of this assumes the poles are solid?

[Bill Neely]

Some years ago I had a pole building like yours. What I did was frame up, insulate and drywall a building inside a building.

[Rob Will]

Nathan,
Looks like you have a solid building to start with. I'd rip off the roof steel and put another purlin between the existing ones, apply 1/2" CDX and the shingle roof (with ridge vent) of your choice. I can't see the benefit of adding more rafters...the existing look plenty beefy. Then I'd box in those overhangs at the eaves with some perforated soffit material. Next would be to re do the gable ends with an attractive material. Back at the ceiling, I would install vent chutes from the wall to the ridge on the underside of the roof deck, then 6" of fiberglass insulation covered with more white pole barn steel, my personal ceiling of choice due to its speed of installation and low maintenance.

I agree, a white metal ceiling is the way to go.

As others have said, start with a new roof, roof trim and soffit material. Lose the skylights and install 2" white vinyl faced fiberglass insulation under the new roof to control condensation. As time and money allow, go after the cieling and walls. Unfortunately, by the time you're done, you will spend almost the same money as a new building. I suppose the advantage of a step by step remodel is that you can "pay" in stages rather than all at once.

In your climate, ANY exposed metal roof or siding is going to sweat on the inside without insulation.

Rob

[John Bush]

Hi Nathan,
I live in Seattle and had similar problems with my first shop and the weather here. I converted on old horse barn ~20 X 36 by flooring over the dirt stall floors, insulating and sheeting the interior walls, and I went the opposite way with the roof. I removed the old cedar shakes, kept the skip sheeting, and placed metal roofing and a 4 X 4 skylight. I then insulated the roof and with woodstove heating I had very little moisture/surface rust problems .
Nathan, did the roofers mention the slope of the roof and the limit for using shingles in our climate. I was under the impression that at a certain pitch metal roofs were a better option. IIRC, I choose metal for $$$ reasons.
Another thought is if you do shingles and insulate the roof, snow accum. could be a problem if you don't add more trusses, etc. We don't get that much snow that often, but when we do it tends to be wet and very heavy. Remember the last "Big One" in the mid 90's, The Edmonds marina lost most of their roofs over the docks and close to 100 boats were lost. Of course I don't think a silly old boat is as important as a good TS, BS, etc., but the loss was tough on a lot of folks here. Good luck, John.

[Roger Bell]

I built a pole barn (post and frame) several years ago, in the same climate as you.

I put 1/2" cdx ply sheathing over the purlins, then 30# felt and then the metal roofing. There is no way I would ever have skylights or translucent panels on a roof in this country. The addition of the cdx really muffles the rain sound. There were no leaks with that approach.

A year later, I then packed ordinary fiberglass batt insulation between the purlins, leaving some air space, and then placed white poly faced bubble-reflectix sheeting over the batts as a ceiling. You could substitute sheet or panelling material of any kind for that. The insulation of the ceiling makes the biggest difference in the ability of the building to retain heat in winter and to retard heat in the summer. I notice a 20 degree difference typically in summer. My walls are also insulated and covered with a mix of 1/2 acx ply and sheetrock.

I would also considering replacing both doors with something that is closer to air tight. That would help a lot with temperature and with keeping out the bugs and vermin.

[Nathan Conner]

Well, lots of good advice from everyone - I really appreciate it.

Due to the height/accessibility of the roof and the drive up to the shop, I think what I'll do is try to find some local guys who feel like ripping off, sheeting, and then replacing the roof that's on here, minus the skylights.

It seems, the more I look at it, that the skylights and their plasticity are the major problem, here. Most of the leaks are drips running from those down the rafters, and I can trace each of them back to a line inline with the skylights.

Nothing wrong with the roof as it sits, other than the leaks. :)

That would get us to the point that we can set up some scaffolding in the shop and either do some insulation up high, or put a ceiling in - work I can easily do by myself or with a little help from a friend to set ledgers.

And I'll look into the best way to remove that door and the gable ends - again, something I can do easily with scaffolding.

Gonna be a project, but also, I think, be enjoyable.

Thanks again!

[Bart Leetch]

Nathen,

insulate the wall cavities- if you can't put craft faced insulation in, you cellulose blown insulation and that can be done from either inside or outside and then plugged where the ports were drilled for the blower nozzle.
and go from there:)

I used to install insulation professionally. We used to vacuum out cellulose because it loses its fire retardant ability after a few years last I heard was somewhere after 5 years. It used to be saturated with a borax type product which loses its fire retardant ability after a few years. It literally lights off like a torch. Several times we had cellulose vender's come to try & sell us on cellulose insulation & we always showed them our test of aged cellulose insulation by taking some out of the vacuum truck hopper & dropping a match on it whoosh it was gone their embarrassed look & answer I guess I don't have much to sell do I was all we ever heard.

If you value your life, home, or shop stay away from cellulose.

The only proof of fire retardant abilities of cellulose is being able to take old cellulose out of an old building & try & light it. No one has provided this proof to me yet.

I won't accept any other proof & you shouldn't either.

Talk & words of assurance are cheap your life & home & shop are not.

I have had insulation contractors on other forums E-mail me & tell me of their similar experiences. One told me they would only install cellulose if the person wanting it would sign a release that absolved the contractor of all responsibility if there was a fire.
If I have a choice cellulose products will never be put into any building of mine.

Its a little more work but using rock-wool or fiberglass is a better choice.

I put this on another forum & the gentleman building his shop happened to have some older cellulose & tried & up in flames real quick & he showed the black charred remains to the sales man &....."Saterday AM I had a insulation guy come over for a quote on insulation and he wanted to sell me cellulose well I took him over to the burn spot and then he decided that he also wanted vacuumed out his cellulose too. I asked why he does it and he said that for the similar reasoning." Some people will jump at anything to save money or a little work. Also pumping in insulation into wall may work but you don't know how many voids without insulation your leaving behind.

Cellulose don't let anyone tell you its a good product. Of all the insulation products 1. rock wool 2. fiberglass. cellulose never. Rock wool is made from spun copper slag & fiberglass is fiberglass. rock wool is the more fire resistant insulation of the two. But either one is way better than cellulose.

[John A. Williams]

Looks like a great place to spend your time. I say fix it up, and you'll love it.

[Peter Lyon]

Count me in as one more who thinks the present structure is well worth saving. You've received a lot of good ideas here -- removing one door and fixing the other, replacing the roof (remove existing, sheath, felt, and replace with metal), insulate the ceiling and closing up the soffits and gable ends.

While you're at it, you may want to consider inserting some high placed windows along the wall that gets the most sun (south? west?).

I'm not sure that I would (at least initially) build the false ceiling after all of that unless you feel it's necessary to keep the place warm.

I'm also not a huge fan of that drywall either. If it were me, I'd start a process where I removed it (perhaps wall by wall) and reinsulated where mold/moisture is/was a problem and replace with some type of solid surface (sheet siding, cedar, etc.).

Good luck -- and keep us posted.

[Brian Weick]

Bart,
I used cellulose insulation - once - about 20 years ago and ,yes, I agree with you that is not the best "Blown insulation" to use, but there is another insulation that you can use ,owens corning blown in fiberglass that they have on the market today that is fire rated and dooes a much better job of filling the cavities and is fire retaardent. :)
Brian

[Nathan Conner]

So, tomorrow morning at 7am the project begins.

After taking a look at all your advice, I decided to bite the bullet and get the roof done. It's well worth it to seal up and insulate the building, and after putting my dream lathe and dream BS in there, I can't afford to watch them sit unused over the winter again, rusting.

So, I had a bunch of roofing contractors out to look over the last week or two. Most didn't want the job - access was too hard, it was too small, etc., etc. Finally, last week, my search ended. I found a couple of guys on Craigslist with a fairly new roofing business who will R&R the roof with good sheeting, two layers of 30# paper, and ice/water barrier, then put down shingles. All materials included, one-day job for $1800. They're HUNGRY, and seem excited to have me as a reference.

Considering that HD and Lowe's both wanted $6k+ to do it, I was tickled, and we'll see how it goes. I agreed to do the boxing-in of the roof, and repair the gable-ends, and the insulation, but they're doing all the HARD work.

Then, yesterday, as if by magic, a check showed up from the mortgage co. for escrow overpayment for just over the cost of the roof! Can it get any better than this? Oh, yes, it can! I chatted on the phone last night with one of the guys coming out in the morning to see what they need - turns out they may refund me ALL of the labor costs in trade for a bunch of computer work. They need a website, some custom software, a laptop purchase/setup, and other things. Lo and behold, my college and employer tell me I'm qualified to do just that!

Anyhow, thanks for all the advice. I'll spend the day down there cleaning and working along with the guys, taking photos and watching. It's so rare you get to sit and watch someone else work - I'll take a day to do THAT!

After they leave, there's some insulation, removal of the big door, a couple of little walls to build, and it's a done deal.

Great advice, everyone! Thanks! I'll post a "finished" picture or two. Maybe one of me with a big smile on my face and a Guinness in hand.

[Don Bullock]

I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures. Congratulations.

[dan moran]

i dont understand why 24" centers are too big. throw up some 1/2" osb or cdx it doesnt matter if a roof gets thrown on it within a couple of days and at least the osb is flat to begin with. use H clips in the ply between the rafters to hold it together and you're done..

[Mike Wilkins]

From personal experience, I would do something about that roof. When I first moved into our home, I had to place my shop inventory in the poorly built shed in the back yard. When I got the funds to add to this, the first order of business was to put a gable roof on the original shed (replacing the original shed roof).
I thought I could just cover everyting with tarps while the rafters were built and roof put on. The rain still got into boxes of tools/supplies/books. I finally got the roof on, but in hindsight I should have moved everthing into a rented storage shed. 5 years later I still find something with rust on it.
You have an advantage with the detached garage to temporarily store your toys/tools while the roof is dealt with. This should be the first order of business, as leaks will not go away on their own. Beef up the framing, place OSB or plywood on top, and cover with shingles to match the house. You can always come back later to insulate the roof on the inside for better comfort.
As for the garage doors; remove the wooden one, frame the wall, and re-side the framing.
Some time spent dealing with these things now will pay big dividends later on down the road. Then you can start dealing with new tools to buyl.

[Bart Leetch]

Bart,
I used cellulose insulation - once - about 20 years ago and ,yes, I agree with you that is not the best "Blown insulation" to use, but there is another insulation that you can use ,owens corning blown in fiberglass that they have on the market today that is fire rated and dooes a much better job of filling the cavities and is fire retaardent. :)
Brian

Yes it works great in attics. I have seen it blown into walls but it is questionable about how well it blows all the way down into the wall cavity. You know that there usually needs to be a air space in the wall cavity & between rafters & the roof sheeting if your using bats against the bottom of the roof.

[Nathan Conner]

Well, somewhat of a fiasco. I learned my lesson about going with the cheap bid, I think, but, hey. It's done. It looks fine. I'll have some cleanup work to do, and then all the finish work and insulation, but the stuff I didn't want to get involved with is done, it should be, if nothing else, dry.

Thanks again for the advice.

http://picasaweb.google.com/nathanconner/8807Roof

[Tom Richter]

Hi,
Since the concensus seems to be re-roof I would suggest that you look at a product called Ondura (ondura.com). It can be applied over existing roofing (up to two layers) eliminating tearoff and disposal. It comes in sheets (aprox 4'x 6 1/2'), has a lifetime warranty, is fast and easy to install. Although it is corrugated it is made of asphalt just like shingles and is much quieter than steel. I have used it on a new building and am definitely using it to re-roof my shop.
Hope this helps.
Tom

[Tom Richter]

Sorry I didn't read far enough into the thread to see that you went with a new conventional roof. Shop looks great. The Ondura product is good though - for future reference.
Tom

[Chuck Lenz]

Nathan, I wish I would of seen this post earlier. I have the same concerns as John Bush had with the pitch of your roof. Don't let the snow get to deep up there.

[Nathan Conner]

No worries so far. It's up, it's dry, and looks fine. Sheeting is on the front of the building, and one of the doors has been replaced with a wall.

I'll keep an eye on it, and make sure (at least this winter) that it stays relatively snow-free. Thanks for the concern!

[Nathan Conner]

Not sure who's interested. I am, of course, but the wife is certainly losing interest daily. It's only been a month since the roof was done, but I always feel like I'm procrastinating much of the necessary finish work.

Status so far: The big steel door is gone, the front of the building replaced by a 2x6 wall (with a much smaller overhead wooden door), insulated, sheeted, sheetrocked, sided and painted. The concrete I had thought was perfectly level turns out to be out about 2" in 12'. It almost matches the pitch of the roof. :( But, it's good for water runoff...uhh...right? Anyhow, all of the sheetrock inside has been replaced & painted where there were mold issues. I have 10 4x8 sheets of the insulation left to put in the ceiling and one gable end, but it's coming along nicely, and it's REALLY warmed up in there with the birdsmouth plugs. No more "seeing your breath"-style mornings.

I've built a new lumber rack, removed all the old "dripping" cabinets, added 3 new 4'x8' cabinets, new air lines, weather-stripped and trimmed the overhead and entry doors, and even started to remove the materials pile that's been accumulating in the weeds in back since the late 80s. Luckily, I've got a friend with an Alpaca farm who thinks he's struck gold, and who's taken 4 truckloads of stuff out of there. Only two trips to the dump so far for me.

It really feels like building a whole new shop, even though it's just a mild remodel. When I first got the place about 4 years ago, the shop needed severe work, and was little more than a poorly-covered metal shed with a toolbox and an old truck inside. I did what I thought I needed to get by, and it REALLY wasn't good enough. More headaches and anguish over that silly roof and the drafty old walls and doors than I needed, and it actually turned me off of woodworking for awhile. It was easier to sit inside by the fire and read the paper than get out and build something.

The final step will be to finish the roof insulation, touch up some paint, take some pictures, and get to work!

[Don Hein]

Since I also live in western Washington, I'm thinking that the interior water problem is not a leaking roof but is a matter of winter condensation on the underside of the steel, which then drips. If that's the case, then perhaps a relatively simple and thrifty solution is in stopping the condensation. If it were me, I would first consult some folks who sell/build steel farm buildings to find out how they deal with condensation.

A neighbor here put up a 40x40 steel building, and I notice that the underside of the roof panels are covered with plastic-covered fiberglas batts. Another way to address condensation is by vigorous ventilation, but then your shop would be not so pleasant to work in. Perhaps the gaps at the tops of your walls were part of a ventilation strategy. You might be able to find an outfit of insulators and/or steel building people who would do the roof insulation retrofit. I've seen a place along I-5 around Centralia-Chehalis called The Metal Mill, for example. I don't know a thing about them except I've seen the place there for many years.

Good luck with your project. You're in a great place, and your basic shop situation seems excellent.

Don

[Ray Knight]

From what we hear the Pacific northwest is humid at least 1/2 the year. Does your roof leak, is water blowing in the open areas, Is there good drainage around the building, is there water/moisture coming through the floor. If the roof/openings leak then everybodies suggestions are your answer. If you are going to be left with a humid shop in a humid climate, then you need heat and airconditioning to solve that. What do other people in that area find, are their shops humid? I have a few friends locally who have barns/farm sheds built into hills, that have ground water almost (in one case literally) flowing through their building. Those can be solved by regrading the hill leading to the building, gutter/draqin system on the uphill side, everything you can do to get rain to flow away from the building. Is this a seasonal problem, do you have wet season and dry season, and do you need heat part of the year, and is air conditioning a need there. Ray

[Don Hein]

My neighbor had Ondura put on his garage/shop some years ago. It deterioriated within 10 years and the warranty didn't help him. His building was in a heavily shaded place, so there were moss/moisture issues, plus the occasional falling branch in windstorms. His installation was not very resistant to falling branches, even smallish ones.

[keith ouellette]

Remove the metal and go with shingles. Once the steel or tin starts to rust things go down hill real quick. That pitch isn't steep at all so you might have to use a rolled roofing material. Most people new to roofing find that a little less work anyway. Then I would see if I could run a lower beem along the length of the building and attached to the main post and run 2x6 accross from wall to wall to create a flat cieling for insulation purposes. If your machines are getting rusty then fix the roof first.